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Rome Vs Sassanids

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  Quote banmate6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rome Vs Sassanids
    Posted: 16-Jul-2009 at 15:57
This is semantic obfuscation. Rome captured Ctesiphon and other strongholds in the heart of Parthia many times over 2 centuries or more. Parthia never threatened Rome proper.

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2009 at 18:53

Rome "proper" had a geographic advantage similar to what the US has today. It was surround by water on 3 sides and mountains on one. That was one the reasons Rome flourished the way it did. Natural barriers made it very hard to invade Rome.

For Parthians to be able to get to Rome proper and be in a shape to fight would have needed a miracle. They only kind of chance they really had was to cause enough damage to Romans army in the plains of Asia to leave Rome completely open. That is why Carrhae could have been turning point in history

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  Quote banmate6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2009 at 22:14
In general, I will give that Europe had certain geographic advantages conducive to creating fragmented competitor entities. We need look no further than Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond for the definitive work on this idea. However, I wouldn't equate the Roman advantage akin to that of the United States, especially in terms of natural defense. That is a stretch, no?

Besides, the Huns, Moor, Ottomans, and Mongols were certainly able to invade and put pressure on Europe, some of these against Italian lands. Once again, we go back to force composition. The Parthians simply did not have the type of military arms that would do well on the offense against Roman Legions anchored by heavy infantry. Even the Huns had to adjust and utilize other Europeans to fight effectively against the Romans, this at a time when Rome was at its weakest...with Rome still winning.

Finally, Carrhae did nothing in the grand scheme of things and most certainly was not a historical turning point. Rome captured key Parthian cities and even the Parthian treasury, inducing a collapse of Parthia in time. The probable reason Rome didn't decisively endure in the middle east was simply one of logistics, as it was too far, requirinig too many resources to Romanize. There was simply a distance and technology threshold past which effective colonization could not occur, even during brief occupations of key Parthian territory. This factor also contained the Chinese from being even more expansive from the east.

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2009 at 12:12

Originally posted by banmate6

In general, I will give that Europe had certain geographic advantages conducive to creating fragmented competitor entities. We need look no further than Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond for the definitive work on this idea. However, I wouldn't equate the Roman advantage akin to that of the United States, especially in terms of natural defense. That is a stretch, no?

Well it depends on how you look at it. The area that is Italy today was surrounded by the sea on three sides and mountains on the other. Mediterranean Sea is not Pacific Ocean but at the same time ancient modes of logistics where nothing comparing to today. This is in sharp contrast to geographical location of Mesopotamian civilizations and later the couples of Persian and Parthian empires for which the center of this empires where located in the middle of cross roads making them open to invasion from one side or another

Originally posted by banmate6

Besides, the Huns, Moor, Ottomans, and Mongols were certainly able to invade and put pressure on Europe, some of these against Italian lands. Once again, we go back to force composition. The Parthians simply did not have the type of military arms that would do well on the offense against Roman Legions anchored by heavy infantry. Even the Huns had to adjust and utilize other Europeans to fight effectively against the Romans, this at a time when Rome was at its weakest...with Rome still winning.

Europe as a whole is more complex situation. And Yes Parthians would have probably have had a hard time staging real offensive against Rome, that is why I said they only chance they may have had was to cause enough damage when room was on the attack to leave Rome weak and open to attack

Originally posted by banmate6

Finally, Carrhae did nothing in the grand scheme of things and most certainly was not a historical turning point. Rome captured key Parthian cities and even the Parthian treasury, inducing a collapse of Parthia in time. The probable reason Rome didn't decisively endure in the middle east was simply one of logistics, as it was too far, requirinig too many resources to Romanize. There was simply a distance and technology threshold past which effective colonization could not occur, even during brief occupations of key Parthian territory. This factor also contained the Chinese from being even more expansive from the east.

Yes, Carrhae was not a turning point, but if the Parthian king had decided to capitalize on the victory and not to turn against his own victorious general it may have turned into one. We will never know

Rome was already in the Middle East they just could not go much beyond the Mediterranean coastline. The logistics to Mesopotamia could not have been much worse than North Africa or England for that matter. The eastern Roman Empire which you used in the example above with Huns and Ottomans had more of presence in the Middle East than Europe

As for china neither Hans nor Parthian/Sassanids had the financial motive or the resources to expand to the east or west into central Asia

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  Quote banmate6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2009 at 14:37
Originally posted by Miller

Well it depends on how you look at it. The area that is Italy today was surrounded by the sea on three sides and mountains on the other. Mediterranean Sea is not Pacific Ocean but at the same time ancient modes of logistics where nothing comparing to today. This is in sharp contrast to geographical location of Mesopotamian civilizations and later the couples of Persian and Parthian empires for which the center of this empires where located in the middle of cross roads making them open to invasion from one side or another


I will give that the middle east is more open to threats, simply on the basis of it being in the middle of an east-west Eurasian latitudinal axis. But as you mentioned later in your post, it took disproportionate amounts of resources to move through such territory, be it desert or grassy steppes. In fact, the Chinese frequently suffered disproportionate losses in these types of environments, ultimately being limited in western expansion because of insurmountable logistics challenges.

Likewise, it was too far from Roman logistical centers to decisively expand in all of Parthia, let alone to India or China. Alexander the Great achieved this to some degree earlier, but he too ultimately could not sustain enough core Macedonian troops to do the job completely.

Originally posted by Miller

Yes, Carrhae was not a turning point, but if the Parthian king had decided to capitalize on the victory and not to turn against his own victorious general it may have turned into one. We will never know

It is an interesting thought, but again, I don't believe Parthia had the type of military necessary to do this effectively. Parthia was a steppe like military, but certainly heavier in terms of logistics. Moreover, the European climate would have often negated the effectiveness of the Parthian bow, due to humidity. Just like the Huns, they would have had to employ infantry...especially in a time when Rome was peaking in terms of its military proficiency.

Rome was already in the Middle East they just could not go much beyond the Mediterranean coastline. The logistics to Mesopotamia could not have been much worse than North Africa or England for that matter. The eastern Roman Empire which you used in the example above with Huns and Ottomans had more of presence in the Middle East than Europe

As for china neither Hans nor Parthian/Sassanids had the financial motive or the resources to expand to the east or west into central Asia



The 2nd paragraph I think is salient. Rome simply also could go no further than Ctesiphon, being able to commit token garrisons and advisers in a bid to Romanize a region filled with proud peoples. Even the eastern Roman Empire was not able to decisively impose themselves upon this region. Had Rome liberalized, conquered, and Romanized Germany, perhaps there might have been a more sustained effort to go east...but even then I think the logistics where beyond the technologies available to rely on raw force. Rome would have had to convince indigenous peoples and forces to assist, just like Alexander did on his march towards India.

Indeed, it is my impression that this is the only way various Chinese dynasties were able to deal with steppe nomads, through alliance and divide and conquer policies. I doubt Rome could achieve such diplomacy, withstanding what Alexander accomplished many centures earlier. Hell, look at the disaterous outcome of Rome incorporating invading Goth and Visigoth tribes into its direct sphere of influence.

Ultimately, I still fancy Roman legions at their peak being able to readily defeat the Parthians, indeed any ancient challengers, all things being equal. Of course, all things never are equal and Rome would have been beaten pretty badly if it tried to go further east for reasons we discussed.

Cheers, Mate
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2009 at 17:02
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2009 at 17:48

Originally posted by banmate6


I will give that the middle east is more open to threats, simply on the basis of it being in the middle of an east-west Eurasian latitudinal axis. But as you mentioned later in your post, it took disproportionate amounts of resources to move through such territory, be it desert or grassy steppes. In fact, the Chinese frequently suffered disproportionate losses in these types of environments, ultimately being limited in western expansion because of insurmountable logistics challenges.

Likewise, it was too far from Roman logistical centers to decisively expand in all of Parthia, let alone to India or China. Alexander the Great achieved this to some degree earlier, but he too ultimately could not sustain enough core Macedonian troops to do the job completely.

The attacks on the empires did just come from other empires. In fact most, middle eastern empires fell to nomads or smaller states surrounding them
Base of ancients and classical economy was agriculture. Empires amassed a large amount of gold by taxing peasants at the same time they were surrounded by nomadic group living in poverty attracted to the gold. They had had to spend a fair amount of cash on the military to defend against such attacks

For Rome this problem was much smaller. The biggest worry may have been tribes of northern and eastern Europe, and because of that they could concentrate on other areas in both military and non-military sense

As for Alexander the Great, I don’t tend to agree with the idea that he was not establishing a new empire because of size. The area he conquered was smaller than the original Persian Empire. He did not need Macedonia troops. Fighting for armies was one of the biggest sources of employment for the ancients, In fact, Both Persian and Macedonians armies had Greek fighters motivated by cash. Alexander had taken enough gold from the Persian Treasury to hire as many troops as he needed.

There are many factors causing Alexander The Great not to be able to maintain the empire. Persians had slowly come to rule the vast area so they learned as they conquered Alexander the Great and his generals were given the empire over night they knew how to fight but not how to rule an empire, but there are probably other reasons

Originally posted by banmate6


The 2nd paragraph I think is salient. Rome simply also could go no further than Ctesiphon, being able to commit token garrisons and advisers in a bid to Romanize a region filled with proud peoples. Even the eastern Roman Empire was not able to decisively impose themselves upon this region. Had Rome liberalized, conquered, and Romanized Germany, perhaps there might have been a more sustained effort to go east...but even then I think the logistics where beyond the technologies available to rely on raw force. Rome would have had to convince indigenous peoples and forces to assist, just like Alexander did on his march towards India.

The chief reason for empires to expanded was to increase the tax and resource base, Germany had noting to offer at the time. The attacks on Germanic tribes were mostly defensive on the part of Rome to preempt attack by Germanic tribes in need of money.

 


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  Quote banmate6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2009 at 20:33
Originally posted by Miller

The chief reason for empires to expanded was to increase the tax and resource base, Germany had noting to offer at the time. The attacks on Germanic tribes were mostly defensive on the part of Rome to preempt attack by Germanic tribes in need of money.


Yes, but this was done in a very calculating fashion, ensuring decent odds of success. The farther you move away from your base, especially when an Empire is not yet consolidated, the riskier the operation politically, never mind technologically and logistically.

Again, Rome had threats such that it could not commit the majority of its forces to Parthia, ever. Even in the later campaigns when Ctesiphon was captured, I don't think more than 12 Legions, maxing out at 70,000 men, took part. That is not a fractional part of the Roman military, at most 1/5. If the Roman West and East had more diligently cooperated and been politically astute with new tribes in the Empire, the perhaps Rome could have made a bid for all of Parthia and then subsequently India.

But it seems almost inevitable that some domestic upheaval caused by not enough technological, social, or political maturity would short circuit the needed consolidation time. For all of China's so called continuity, there has often been internal chaos, leading to weaknesses that were exploited by conquerors. Rome would have suffered the same fate.

For me, there is 1 enduring lesson in Rome: the best and brightest will cease to uphold and defend their society in the absence of a fair value proposition. Rome simply grew to corrupt, where nobody of significance really cared to save her. The elites were fighting one another to the bitter end. I know I've gone off on a tangent, but it had to be said.

Wink

Cheers, Mate




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  Quote banmate6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2009 at 20:34
Hey, why are we being warned not to post here? Is this forum in conflict with another similarly named forum?

What's going on?

Cheers, Mate
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2009 at 09:42
banmate6, that is spam and Aster Thrax Eupator is a spammer, so he was banned: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27450
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2009 at 11:09
Originally posted by Miller

The chief reason for empires to expanded was to increase the tax and resource base, Germany had noting to offer at the time. The attacks on Germanic tribes were mostly defensive on the part of Rome to preempt attack by Germanic tribes in need of money.

You look at resources the wrong way. Germany had one resource Romans needed: people.
They needed slaves and there were a lot of Germans. Romans lost appetite for the expansion into Germany after Teutoburg forest disaster. The main factor in this disaster was that  Arminius lived as hostage in Rome and spoke Latin, because of this he  figured out Roman tactics. This means Germans were not very fearful of Roman Legions, could muster large armies and devise counter-tactics of their own. One of reasons Varus lost at Teutoburg Forest was that Germans orchestrated an ambush in which legions could not deploy into fighting formation (road in the forest was too narrow).
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2009 at 15:23
Originally posted by banmate6

Yes, but this was done in a very calculating fashion, ensuring decent odds of success. The farther you move away from your base, especially when an Empire is not yet consolidated, the riskier the operation politically, never mind technologically and logistically.



 

That is correct and history is full of examples where the empires calculated wrong and ended up abandoning expansion. From Xerxes in Greece to Russians in Afghanistan and maybe US in Vietnam

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2009 at 15:41
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

You look at resources the wrong way. Germany had one resource Romans needed: people.
They needed slaves and there were a lot of Germans. Romans lost appetite for the expansion into Germany after Teutoburg forest disaster. The main factor in this disaster was that  Arminius lived as hostage in Rome and spoke Latin, because of this he  figured out Roman tactics. This means Germans were not very fearful of Roman Legions, could muster large armies and devise counter-tactics of their own. One of reasons Varus lost at Teutoburg Forest was that Germans orchestrated an ambush in which legions could not deploy into fighting formation (road in the forest was too narrow).
 

Attacks on Germanic tribes were no picnic for Rome. However, In general slavery was not eventually abolished because human being became nicer. It was set aside because the cost of maintaining slaves become grater that the services salve could provide. It is/was more efficient to own fraction of people through taxation and let them maintain themselves. Post ancient period Empires primary desire was to expand to established communities

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