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Irans losses during the Qajar dynasty!
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Zagros View Drop Down
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Irans losses during the Qajar dynasty!
    Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 16:47
For the people, obviously.  That is why I said painful in the first place - being put under brutal Russian rule.
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Iranian41ife View Drop Down
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 16:49

was there ever a resistance force against the russian occupation in that region?

i think that if at that moment iran were to ally itself with britain to stop russias expansion britain would have agreed and helped iran regain the caucasus in exchange for land in the east, in afghanistan or something, which they ended up taking later anyway.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 16:51
Yea those Brits are ther for you only for profit. And France is there for you only to make mini-"gay" paris out of your country.

And Spain....well Spain will just rape you and steal all your gold
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 16:54

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Yea those Brits are ther for you only for profit. And France is there for you only to make mini-"gay" paris out of your country.

And Spain....well Spain will just rape you and steal all your gold

spain was weak at the time, probably even weaker than iran. there is nothing spain could have done against anyone.

and yes, i said that iran should have exchanged land in the east (which is practically worthless land, but the british didnt care) in exchange for help in the north.

the british and french gladly helped the ottomans in the crimian war in order to stop russia's expansions. the ottomans would have lost without french and british intervention.

there is no reason why britain or france would not have helped iran.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 16:55
No, i am just saying the "scenarios" of the situation. I am not saying that Spain would have done anything about Iran.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 17:06

Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

Yea those Brits are ther for you only for profit. And France is there for you only to make mini-"gay" paris out of your country.

And Spain....well Spain will just rape you and steal all your gold

OK, Ponce, you have had your period of Grace and you are still trolling like a child.  You are hereby officially warned.
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 18:03
Originally posted by prsn41ife

was there ever a resistance force against the russian occupation in that region?

i think that if at that moment iran were to ally itself with britain to stop russias expansion britain would have agreed and helped iran regain the caucasus in exchange for land in the east, in afghanistan or something, which they ended up taking later anyway.

stalin mass-deported people from those area's, thats why you can find some abhazians in siberia, or meshketians near the borders of China, etc... All of them because he feard there would be "rebellions"...
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 18:28
lol, im not taking about the USSR.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 21:15
Originally posted by prsn41ife

was there ever a resistance force against the russian occupation in that region?

i think that if at that moment iran were to ally itself with britain to stop russias expansion britain would have agreed and helped iran regain the caucasus in exchange for land in the east, in afghanistan or something, which they ended up taking later anyway.


     As far as I know, the only Caucasian resistance against Russian rule was in the north Caucasus. I think this is the same period that the Chechens and other northern Caucasian peoples adopted Islam (Sufi to be exact) and used it to resist Russian occupation. This is why Russia settled armed Cossack volunteers there, in order to stop potential rebellions. In the mid-1800s Islam brought the Chechens and Dagestanis together into one fighting force against Russia. Russia's superior numbers and technology prevailed, however.

     As for the southern Caucasus, I would imagine that the Christian Georgians and Armenians wouldn't have much of a problem with Russian rule, as it brought them out of Islamic rule under the Ottomans or Safavids. This is despite the fact that economically, politically and socially, Armenians have enjoyed much more prosperity under Islamic rule than under Christian rule. During those times, an Armenian that converted to Islam or married into Islam became detached from their community, making them Armenian no longer. This is why many Armenians stuck together in order to avoid assimilation, and thus prospered more under Islamic rule due to their connectivity. Note that this did not lead to isolationism, as Armenians naturally had a lot of economic contact with Turks and Iranians, and had very important merchant classes in both Safavid Iran and Ottoman Turkey. It was just their way of keeping their communities  and culture together under foreign rule.

     Did the Safavids tax their non-Muslim populations as the Ottomans had done? If so, this could have been just one of the reasons that Georgians and Armenians didn't really resist Russian rule.


Edited by ArmenianSurvival
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 22:32

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival


     Did the Safavids tax their non-Muslim populations as the Ottomans had done? If so, this could have been just one of the reasons that Georgians and Armenians didn't really resist Russian rule.

no the armenians in new julfa (in isfahan) did not pay a tax individually. 

they were given their own government, their own leaders, they chose their own laws, and lived life their own way. they were also given control of irans commerce, because they were good business people.

in return for allowing the armenians to run new julfa as their "own country" (which consisted of the city of new julfa and 22 armenian villages) the armenian leader how to pay a yearly tribute.

 
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 23:55

i dont see how the Qajars can be considered the worst empire Iran had,

they lost "some" parts of their Empire, while the earlier empires such as the Sassanids Lost all the empire.

 
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Posts: 921 		  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 01:07
It's more of a complicated issue for "insiders" of any country, I'm talking about some feelings that only a certain people would understand. You might be right in saying (in general) that some kingdoms lost their whole realm while some lost just parts of it. But for Qajars, as you can see from the map  shows that they lost territories due to treatries... it's like giving away land, while Sassanids for instance, fought the enemy and lost the war.
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 05:37

we can say the same about Darius offering Alexander half of the Empire as a peace treaty. Alexander refused and took all the empire!.

i guess considering them as the worst maybe coz they are closer to now than the earlier ones.

 
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Posts: 121 		  Quote Behrouz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 18:45
Originally posted by azimuth

we can say the same about Darius offering Alexander half of the Empire as a peace treaty. Alexander refused and took all the empire!.

i guess considering them as the worst maybe coz they are closer to now than the earlier ones.

 



Or maybe that story is made up to further show Iranians as wimpy and scared of the mighty greeks, history being written by them and all At least the recent history can be verified by different historical accounts.
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Posts: 921 		  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 23:59
I don't see why Darius was a great king. but speaking about dynasties (a series of kings) Qajar clearly stand on the top. along with the losses in land their functions WITHIN the country was not really successful (e.g. killing many political figures such as ministers, creating huge harems, spending expensive vacations in Europe, etc etc..)

Behrouz, imo it is quite possible to acknowledge the fact that Darius III offered land in exchange of peace, to keep the empire's existance. the kingdom was quite fragile at the time, Darius was the third king in 2 years!
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Posts: 2268 		  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2006 at 15:28
Originally posted by prsn


and yes, i said that iran should have exchanged land in the east (which is practically worthless land, but the british didnt care) in exchange for help in the north.


Don't forget, UK force Iran for Torkamanchai treaty.
Abbas Mirza could defeat Russia, but UK Diplomacy defeat him & on that time Napeleon couldn't help Iran becuz of treaty between France & Russia.

Ghajar dynasty was disaster for Iran, no only for lost Lands, they gave many advantage to UK & Russia.

in my opinion among all of them only Abbas Mirza was great man & hi did the best but his fool father ( Fathali shah ) was always in Harm among his 1000 wives
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Posts: 1832 		  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2006 at 23:05

Safavid Persia

Land inherited from the Safavids, and eventually lost:
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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