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what’s going on in the Netherlands??

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Sirdar Bahadur

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: what’s going on in the Netherlands??
    Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 14:22
can someone give me info abotu the current events in my neighboursing country? and what's the deal with that van Gogh dude?
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  Quote Fizzil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 14:28
he got stabbed and killed by an extremist of sorts, and things escalated after that, attacks on mosques and churches, and on schools and such, the dutch Anti-Terror squad also got 3 terrorists today. its going for the worse generally, but i hope everything can be fixed soon.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 14:31
Theo van Gogh was a film/maker writer with a rather hars opinion about muslims he oftencalled them 'geitenneukers' (goat f**kers). A few months ago he made a short movie 'Submission' together with MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali (she was born in Somalia). the movie was about the abuse of muslim women by their husbands. It contained koran texts written on woman body parts. This was probably the reason he was killed. He was killed by a muslim. The muslim was injured by the asassination and now lies in hospital. He left a letter on Van Goghs body in which he also threatened Hirsi Ali (and IIRC also Geert Wilders, a parlimentarian known for his anti-islamism and his haircut). The letter also made clear he expected he wouldn't survive his attempt and become a martyr.

Since then several islamic schools, mosques and churches have been set on fire or were vandalized in other ways. Also today 2 terrorists were besieged in a house in The Hague, but AFAIK that has nothing to do with the asassination on Van Gogh.


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  Quote John Doe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 16:34
why did the churches get burned?

revenge for revenge attacks ?
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 16:37
Originally posted by John Doe

why did the churches get burned?

revenge for revenge attacks ?


Yup.
And then there will be revenge for the revenge against the revenge attacks.......

Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 21:43
Woa.. you guys have to stop it before it gets out of hand!  We don't need this kind of thing in the heart of western civilization!
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
-William Shakespeare
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 23:16
oh yes we do, we need a great cleansing of religions, all of them...but not yet, I am not yet ready to assume the mantle of my destiny.....
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 00:51

It's disheartening to see how quickly civilized society can decay into the devolution of the "eye for an eye" mentality.  Equally as demoralising that many otherwise good people can be so quickly led down the revenge path out of anger and frustration.  Once that cycle starts, communication ends and is so very hard to re-establish.

Tobodei - I agree that the murder was a barbarous and unconscionable act - but can we condemn all religious people for the senseless violence of the few?  I condemn equally those who have committed acts of violence in retaliation against an entire community, thus creating more fear and distrust.

MT - please keep us posted on the events there - mainline US news sources carry very little international news.  Are there active anti-muslim groups there?  Do they have much popular support?  How strong is the anti-uslim and/or anti-immigrant sentiment?

In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 06:59
Are there active anti-muslim groups there? 

Numerous small factions have split off from the LPF and Leefbaar Rotterdam (Pim Fortuyn's parties). Some of them are rightwing extremist, most notable of them is Nieuw Rechts (New Right). I think those parties are the main anti-muslim groups.

Do they have much popular support?

Not officially. Some of these parties participated in the parliamentary elections (in 2003) but none of them received a seat in parliament.

How strong is the anti-uslim and/or anti-immigrant sentiment?

The "There's nothing wrong with foreigners as long as their stay in their own countries" sentiment is quite strong I think, but most people don't dare to say it.

Geert Wilders, an MP who split off from the Conservative Liberal VVD and started an own faction recently polled 18 (out of 150) seats. He is clearly anti-muslim, though not in a racist way.

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 13:36
bah, I wouldn't have been surprised to hear something like that from France, but not the netherlands. how big is the percentage of Muslims in the Dutch population? and what is the natinality of the majority of them? Turks?
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2004 at 13:42
Around 5-6% IIRC.
Or roughly 900,000.
Of which about 350,000 are Turkish, 300,000 are Moroccan, and the remainder everyone else (pretty much everyone fron Bosniaks, to the odd Bahrainian, and a few Dutch converts).

Hmm see here for more detail, thats only by country of origin though.


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Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 16:15

Van gogh was killed by a Moroccan.

But Holland really disoppointed me.The Dutch people were the most civilised,honest people in Europe for me before these events...,

But now i realised that they can be more fanatic under such circumstances without keeping it cool then even real fanatics...

ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 16:18
Obviously, the actions of a handfull of Dutch people are represntative of all Dutch people, just like Osama is representative of all Muslims.

You know, its preciesly this mindset that causes this crap to happen.


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Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 16:28

i understand you,pal...

but i didnt expect such to happen in Holland..Also i heard that there is an anti-immigration trend in Holland...therefore my opinion of Holland has changed

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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 17:42

Nobody - and especially no country - is perfect.  We can't blame all Dutch for the actions of a few vandals and radicals - just as we can't blame all Muslims for the murder that precipitated the violence.  We can only hope that cooler heads will prevail.

As we often say here in the States,  "Ah! the joys of living in a multi-cultural society... "

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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 19:52
Whoa, this is becoming more dangerous than I actually expected it to be. Poor Netherlands, such a great country renowned for tolerance, hard to believe it's going down like this. To all Dutchmen and all people living in the Netherlands - my condolences and I hope your country returns to peace.

Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote Kubrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2004 at 22:52
As we often say here in the States,  "Ah! the joys of living in a multi-cultural society... "


All first-world nations are such societies...   The fact that the Dutch are the ones to whom this is happening is purely bad luck, they drew the short straw .
Hell is empty and all the devils are here.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 01:12
living and learneing from multipple cultures is always mor benefical in the long run despite the hardships, the knowledge exchanged is what makes great nations.  You must react to the blows and wind up stonger for it.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 05:59
It's quite understandable though. People will get pissed when they allow foreigners in and these completely ignores the set of laws and rules that is present in the country. It doesn't matter that the vast majority of the immigrants are law-abiding people who only want to live in peace with their neighbours, it's sufficient that just a fraction don't. An alien vocal minority which do stuff like this will always be met with much lesser tolerance than a native one; that's the way people work, sadly.
This hasn't changed my views on the Dutch as one of the most tolerant peoples. First off it's only a small minority who has torched mosques etc, and secondly, imagine if a similar thing would have occured in a country like Saudi Arabia or similar. Keep things in perspective.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2004 at 11:20
Whoa, this is becoming more dangerous than I actually expected it to be. Poor Netherlands, such a great country renowned for tolerance, hard to believe it's going down like this. To all Dutchmen and all people living in the Netherlands - my condolences and I hope your country returns to peace.

It has already returned to peace. The last days no more incidents related to the murder on Van Gogh have occured.
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