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The route of Tin: contextualizing Euro-Mediterranean Bronze Age

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The route of Tin: contextualizing Euro-Mediterranean Bronze Age
    Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 04:40
This exposition touches several recently discussed tocpics, such as Atlantis, Cycladean civilization or Sea Peoples. We will move in this thread in the extremely uncertain frontier between history and prehistory, between myth and fact...

The aim is to reconstruct such an important period as the Bronze Age and to analyze the role that scarcity of tin had in the evolution of the Late Bronze Age in the Eastern Mediterranean and the contemporary evolution of the Early and Middle Bronze Age in Western Europe.

Though  have a good general idea of what I am talking about, I don't know each detail of each culture of this period, so I will appreciate all other apportations.

The reference topics for this one are:
The basic concept is buried in some of these topics (sorry but Ican't bother to search it right now): that at some point scarcity of tin was central in impelling the metalurgy of iron. Raw iron tools and weapons aren't better than those of good bronze. Bronze needs 90% copper, a mineral that is quite aboundant and that was mined in Cyprus particularly but also in other places, and 10% of tin, a mineral that is much rarer and that was found mostly in two areas: Western Europe and Afghanistan.

Both mining places were very far away from the Eastern Mediterranean region, where the bellicose Hittite and Greek civilizations, among others demanded it.

Most tin seems to have come from the Far West, the Hesperides of Greek mythology... In NW Iberia and SE Britain specially, there were outstanding tin sources that were indeed mined in this period. For more details you may want to read my article on Ancient Iberia, where you can find much of the references that will be used in this discussion.


SE Iberia

The fact is that contemporarily to the developement of the civilization in Greece (Cycladean, Minoan and Mycenean cultures) we find two areas of civlization also developing in Iberia. These two areas, particularly that of Se Iberia (Los Millares and later El Argar) must be somehow related to Greece because burial customs are incredibly mirrored in each other, if for no other reason.

While tholoi are originary from Syria and Cyprus, they were used as homes. The first use of tholoi as toms is documented in southern Iberia, being most strongly (but not exclussively) associated to the SE civilization of Los Millares.


Iberian tholos tomb of Los Millares



Aeral view and reconstructive drawing of Los Millares


More on Los Millares: HERE (in Spanish)

This burial custom seems to have been imitated by (pre-)Greeks later on.

Also the Bronze Age successor of Los Millares, El Argar, eventually adopts a clearly Greek burial custom: pithoi, burial in gigantic jars used as coffins.

But the trade connection is still obscure. Apart of a few green glass beads and the fact that Near Eastern good quality and once aboundant tin had to come from somewhere there are not artifacts that can be atributed to trans-Mediterranean trade in either place. Sure that Iberian civilizations enjoyed sicne c. 3000 BCE of aboundant imports from Northern Europe and undefined regions of Africa... but Eastern Mediterranean artifacts, apart of those few beads, are still unheard of.


Burial in pithos, common in El Argar B and Mycenean Greece


This type of high-footed cups of El Argar are also common in the Middle Helladic


More on El Argar: HERE (in Spanish)


Western Iberia

But while I don't ignore the SE Iberian context and its striking connections to Greece, my personal focus in rather in the other Ancient Iberian civilization, located in the region of Estremadura, in modern day Portugal.

The culture of Vila Nova de Sao Pedro (VNSP), sometimes also called Zambujal for its main town, is as old as Los Millares (c. 2600 BCE) but it lasts for a lot longer being also contemporary of El Argar. From 2100 to 1900 BCE it becomes the center of the Bell Beaker phenomenon, apparently of trading nature. Its relation with Los Millares seems rather cooperative, even if the cultures are clearly different, and I would say that decission of building fortfications is more related to the instability that between 2600 and 2400 BCE plagues Western and, specially, Central Europe. Nevertheless the fotifications persist even in the "pacific" period of the Bell Beaker culture...


Culture of Vila Nova de Sao Pedro and surroundings c. 2000 BCE


VNSP's origins are unclear but it does seem to be mostly a byproduct of native forces, the same forces that just a few generations after they recieved the concept of agriculture, invented such a succesful funerary model as the dolmen, the same cultures that, seemingly descendent of Magdalenian hunter-gatherers, would build them all around the Atlantic coasts of Europe in what seems a unifying element for the diferent cultures of the Finis Terrae, the End of the World... the place where the Sun sets.

VNSP therefore arises as the first Megalithist civilization. Yet, while dolmens persist, some new funerary types arise: the artificial caves, with parallels specially in SE France, a region that is very much connected to VNSP if we trace the Copper Age exchanges.

Most strikingly for those familiar with the writings of Plato on Atlantis, VNSP has exactly 10 of these "aristcratic tombs": 10 are the kings of Atlantis, according to the Greek philosopher. Obviously this is not the only coincidence: after all, VNSP is the only cvlization "beyond the pillars" that has been documented so far, the oblongue shape of the peninsula fits also with the description of the "island", the fact that the capital city, Zambujal, is on a low mountain is also perfectly in accordance with Plato's description.
But furthermore, recent archaeological research has found that:


(...)

Geo-archaeological investigations (in 1986) established that, until the 2nd half of the 2nd millennium B. C., Zambujal was at most 1 km away from a former marine branch.

(...)

Probably, the bay mentioned above was of fundamental importance for the existence of the settlement, because on the one hand different materials used in Zambujal had to be brought in from distant sites (e. g. amphibolite, ivory, exotic items such as a cowrie snail, but probably also copper) and on the other hand, the produced copper articles had to be bartered. Additionally, the end of the occupation around the transition from Bronze Age to Iron Age seems to have been connected to the disappearance of the bay. 

http://www.dainst.org/index.php?id=595&sessionLanguage=e n


Is that "bay" the canal that Plato describes?


Atlantis? Erythia? Atlas and the Hesperides?

I don't just toy with the idea of Atlantis: Greeks had kept some difusse memory of their Bronze Age in form of myths and legends. The Heraklean cycle has some of the most interesting pieces for us, as it is the only one that mentions the Hesperides clearly and the Greeks active in that region.

In his 10th labour, Herakles is sent to fight against a kiing of an island of the Hesperides, Geriones. This island is called Erythia.

In his 11th labour, probably an alternative narration for the same story, Herakles must steal the golden apples to the Hesperides (one of them called Erythia too) and triks Atlas to do it for him.

Atlas is the mythical founding king of Atalntis in Plato's narration, though in other legends, this one is Uranos. Atlas is depicted sustaining the skies... just as some Iberian icons...

Well, in any case we have two or three separate accounts of Greeks beng in the Far West.

We also have those striking cultural parallels between SE Iberia and Greece.

And we have a demand of tin in the Near East. While the peoples of SW Asia may had got easier to import it from Afghanistan, Greeks (and Cretans before them) probably had it a lot easier to bring it from Iberia, where they could also find other minerals at a cheap price: gold, silver, copper, amber, etc.

So the Greece-Iberia-Britain connection must be a fact.


Contextualizing

Let's put it in context:


The Euro-Mediterranean region c. 1500-1300 BCE


  • Orange areas are those that I think were culturaly akin to VNSP (red)
  • Purple areas of Iberia are those that I think akin to Greece
  • Light green shows the area of influence of Hittites (dark green)
  • X symbols are the main areas producing tin
To end with this exposition, I will post a map of Bronze Age Iberia:



This map shows the probable tin routes and why the military colonization of La Mancha (motillas) is a geostrategical move that may show the hostility between El Argar and VNSP
.

I believe that this struggle happened in the context of a colonialist or rather semicolonialist intent by Mycenae/Greece.

I suspect that the catstrophe describe by Plato for Atlantis could be based in a real fact: after all the bay of Zambujal was silted for unknow reasons and we do have a precedent of a massive tsunami destroying Lisbon in the 18th century.

What is clear is that after c. 1300 BCE VNSP fortified towns are abandoned, while El Argar, which seems to be also a centralized state, breaks apart in the post-Argaric culture fo separated "polis".

It's also clear that c. 1300 invaders from the Urnfileds culture of Central Europe (successors of the Tummuli one, reflected in the map) occupy NW Iberia and show some presence in the late Argarian context. These are probably the ancestors of Iberian Celts, though non-Celtic groups may have been also among them.

Whatever the case, it seems that decades later, tin starts being scarce in the Eastern Med and this may have been the trigger of Sea Peoples piracies and the chaos that all the region fell in just at the start of the Iron Age.


Edited by Maju

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 07:53
Some fascinating information presented here Maju.

I find this very captivating, especially how it ties in to how the late Bronze Age Civilization of the 1500 BCE Eastern Mediterannean became Iron Age later around 1200 BCE with the fall of Troy, Mycenae and the Hittites among others and the rise of Phoenicia, the Dorians and the arival of the Philistines and Israelites in the Levant

I am really interested in where the did the cultures from those centres come from, and what technology and raw materials did they have,  and where did they migrate to and cause what to develop in their new places.

So I have been researching them at home in my old 1983 Encyclopaedia Britannicas... and on the web... now on this Forum...most interesting...

CD




Edited by crag_dolomite
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 08:40

 maju, great analysis of putting it all together 

However according to Plato, this lost land was a egyptian story and it seems there was no egyptian travel there,so how could they have  the  written records of this great empire before the Greeks, when the greeks were all ready there, even if  the story did come from the sea people.? I guess the same can be said of the Tartesso theroy of being this lost land.

Like you said  the myth of herakles, was  the only myth before Plato that had any connection to Iberia

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 08:44
Originally posted by crag_dolomite

Some fascinating information presented here Maju.

I find this very captivating, especially how it ties in to how the late Bronze Age Civilization of the 1500 BCE Eastern Mediterannean became Iron Age later around 1200 BCE with the fall of Troy, Mycenae and the Hittites among others and the rise of Phoenicia, the Dorians and the arival of the Philistines and Israelites in the Levant

I am really interested in where the did the cultures from those centres come from, and what technology and raw materials did they have,  and where did they migrate to and cause what to develop in their new places.

So I have been researching them at home in my old 1983 Encyclopaedia Britannicas... and on the web... now on this Forum...most interesting...

CD



I don't have all the clues and sometime I may even forget about the ones I already know but I do agree that the 1500-1100 period is a fascinating "end of times".

This is particularly true if you belong to a Western European culture: it would seem like this period, though probably already of decline, it is the last great moment of Western Europe before the Renaissance. In Egypt or Mesopotamia, even in Greece, the transition is not so radical... but in Western Europe it seems the end of a much more glorious phase to sink into barbarism for some 2600 years.

I'm not sure if it's Pliny or Herodotus who, writting on Lusitania, said that he could hardly understand how such a fertile and naturally rich country was in such state of barbarism. The same author (I think it's Pliny) mentions the veneration that Cape St. Vincent, then called the Holy Cape, the westernmost place of Europe, caused. How people made pilgrimage to that place, which was forbidden in the evening and night as it was supposed that the gods dwelt there. I wonder if such beliefs were representative of what people of the Megalithic age could have?


Edited by Maju

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 08:48
Originally posted by docyabut

 maju, great analysis of putting it all together 

However according to Plato, this lost land was a egyptian story and it seems there was no egyptian travel there,so how could they have  the  written records of this great empire before the Greeks, when the greeks were all ready there, even if  the story did come from the sea people.? I guess the same can be said of the Tartesso theroy of being this lost land.

Like you said  the myth of herakles, was  the only myth before Plato that had any connection to Iberia



I think that Egyptians could had that info via either of these sources:
  • Greeks themselves in a period prior to their Dark Ages
  • Phoenicians (who were in Iberia later on)
  • Lybians (who would had been maybe allies of the Atlanteans)
  • Sea Peoples (POWs or mercenaries or just the Philistines)
Whichever the case, Egyptians kept written record and Greeks only oral legend... or so it seems.

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 09:42
Fascinating post. I always enjoy a good Atlantis theory that isn't about wacky aliens and power crystals.

However, I do have a few questions. You say that VNSP is 2600 BC and is the "oldest megalithic culture", but there are megaliths older than that in Britain (which is also incidentally a tin center). Newgrange for instance is 3200 BC. There is also a circular megalith at Nabta Playa in the Nubian Desert, which is dated even earlier, some time in the 5th millenium BC.

Second question, what about Atlantis as an island? And what about Minoa? It is difficult to imagine that no legends about that civilization were passed down, and in many respects, it fits the legend quite nicely - right down to the earthquakes. On the other hand, VNSP does lie beyond the pillars and if you were approaching from the south, might seem to be an island.

Third question, why an Iberia-Greece-British axis? Why would British tin head to Iberia, which already had a surplus of the stuff? Wouldn't it be more likely that ancient British tin was traded across the Channel and overland to the European interior, as we know it was in later times?

Apart from the Atlantean theories, this is fascinating in its own way ... first time I've heard about the prehistoric culture in Iberia, and its intriguing.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 11:58

maju, in connection with the Greek myth, as you know in Herakles in his travels, is the frist time Tartesso is mention.As you say Tartesso was to late to be the city in Plato story, however I disagree.

 

http://www.sikyon.com/Thebes/Labors/labor_eg10.html

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 12:23
Originally posted by edgewaters

Fascinating post. I always enjoy a good Atlantis theory that isn't about wacky aliens and power crystals.

However, I do have a few questions. You say that VNSP is 2600 BC and is the "oldest megalithic culture", but there are megaliths older than that in Britain (which is also incidentally a tin center). Newgrange for instance is 3200 BC. There is also a circular megalith at Nabta Playa in the Nubian Desert, which is dated even earlier, some time in the 5th millenium BC.


Don't misunderstand me: SW Iberian megaliths (passage dolmens) are dated as soon as 4800 BCE, making it apparently the earliest megalithism. As far as I know, no other European megalithism is so old: Breton and western French megalithism is of about 3800 and all the other European megalithism is dated after 3500 BCE.

But VNSP as such is much younger. I just meant that it grew in the oldest megalithic region of Europe. Nothing else.

I am an almost absolute ignorant on North African Megalithism and would love to know more. Yet there's so little info on that issue...



Second question, what about Atlantis as an island? And what about Minoa? It is difficult to imagine that no legends about that civilization were passed down, and in many respects, it fits the legend quite nicely - right down to the earthquakes. On the other hand, VNSP does lie beyond the pillars and if you were approaching from the south, might seem to be an island.


I take that the term "island" was either:
  • used losely, in the sense of "a land" or "a separated piece of land"
  • it meant either island or peninsula without difference: the term "perirruthos" was used in some of the early legends instead of "nesos", for instance
  • an error: any sailor coming from the Med would have found the Estremaduran peninsula an apparent island. Only exploring further north, would he (or she) have found that it was a peninsula... but that required a serious explorer, not just the occasional trader. It's much like California appearing as an island in early maps of America.
Minoans are a totally different people: they belong to the Greek world 100%, even if genuine Minoan Cretans were pre-Greek. Crete does appear in the legend of Herakles, as Thrace or Troy but they appear as known places not as the mysterious unrelated case of Erythia...

Also it seems more and more unlikely that the Thera explosion and the demise of Minoan Crete had any relation at all. Life continued after Thera went off. See: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/l essons/les/17.html



Third question, why an Iberia-Greece-British axis? Why would British tin head to Iberia, which already had a surplus of the stuff? Wouldn't it be more likely that ancient British tin was traded across the Channel and overland to the European interior, as we know it was in later times?


In later times most British tin also was mostly exported via the sea to the Phoenicians, who had taken the control of such strategic trade regarding the Mediterranean. Anyhow, I don't exclude trade with the mainland, just that it was surely less geopolitically important...

... though maybe I'm missing something... after all it ware Central Europeans who invaded c. 1300... they needed to make bronze too and they did not have those strategic complications of the Mediterraneans...

Still the "Greek market" seems demanding and the NW Iberian region may have only exploited its mineral riches in the Middle Bronze Age (1500-1300, local and pan-European periodization) but not before.


Apart from the Atlantean theories, this is fascinating in its own way ... first time I've heard about the prehistoric culture in Iberia, and its intriguing.


It is intriguing indeed.  And a badly known part of  history.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 12:25
Originally posted by docyabut

maju, in connection with the Greek myth, as you know in Herakles in his travels, is the frist time Tartesso is mention.As you say Tartesso was to late to be the city in Plato story, however I disagree.

 

http://www.sikyon.com/Thebes/Labors/labor_eg10.html



I know you disagree... but for the time Tartessos was probably in activity, Greece was already in the Dark Ages. Tartessos relate to Phoneicians rather than Greeks and that's shown not just in the chronology but also in the archaeology, as the Iron Age Iberia is almost exclussively under Phoenician influence.

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 12:47
Originally posted by Maju

Don't misunderstand me: SW Iberian megaliths (passage dolmens) are dated as soon as 4800 BCE, making it apparently the earliest megalithism.



Ahh, ok.

Also it seems more and more unlikely that the Thera explosion and the demise of Minoan Crete had any relation at all. Life continued after Thera went off. See: http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/l essons/les/17.html


That's not really a new view though ... the explosion is only presumed to have destroyed the palace economy, not wiped out the population.

[quote] after all it ware Central Europeans who invaded c. 1300... they needed to make bronze too and they did not have those strategic complications of the Mediterraneans... [/quotes]

I believe those are actually thought to be Iberians, owing to the artifacts and some of the oral folklore. But I don't know how much stock I really put in the prehistoric "invasions" of Britain. There's no evidence that anything other than technology moved in and the artifacts and culture changed. You don't need any populations moving for that to happen.

But that does remind me, that there must have been some British-Iberian contact, at any rate.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 15:00
Well, what the link I posted above says is that there was no tsunami nor any effect of any major size: that the Thera explossion and the supposed demise or Crete are totally unrelated. Actually Crete was invaded by Greeks a lot earlier an remained under the same rule after that. Whatever happened in Crete was of human not geological cause.

...

You mean that you think that the invaders of the Urnfields culture, who show clear Celtic iconography, are Iberians? I don't make any sense of that - particularly because the Celts of Iberia must have come from somewhere at some time, and also because these people of the Urnfields also show continuity with other proto-Celtic areas in the context of Hallstatt, only being cut from the mainland later on.

We are not talking about technology only, as the Urnfields had nothing that Argarians didn't have already... but about culture. Urnfields' and Hallstatt people show a culture of clear proto-Celtic characters (use of torques, for instance) and the move of Urnfields in very few decades, maybe even just a matter of years, in many directions (west, SW, SE, etc.), implies a sudden explossion whose only explanation is the formateion and release of an invading "horde".

This is no gradual infiltration nor the by-product of any trading network: Urnfields is an explossive invasion from Central Europe towards the Western Balcans, the Eastern Pyrenean region and the area around the Strait of Calais, with some influence also on the northern cultures - tough I'm uncertain in this case and believe is not an invasion probably there.

I would like also to know more on the influence of Urnfields in Italy and Greece. Proto-Etruscans adopted cremation and urnfields' burial practices. Dorians also show cremation customs. The origin of Italics (Latins included) may also be related to this group.


Edited by Maju

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 16:05
Originally posted by Maju


You mean that you think that the invaders of the Urnfields culture, who show clear Celtic iconography, are Iberians?


As I mentioned, I'm not entirely clear on either the evidence behind the Iberian presence in Britain nor its arrival, but it seems to be relatively well-established. From what I gather, the thinking is that early Iberian arrivals established themselves, but were pushed to the traditional fringes (Wales and Scotland) by Celtic invaders around 500 BC (again, if there was an invasion and not just a cultural shift). The Picts, I believe, are thought to have been distinct from Gaelic/Celtic peoples and are thought to be of Iberian stock.

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 17:11

Fascinating discussion Maju. I'm very glad you have opened it. My knowledge of this area of history is a bit fuzzy, but I have some questions for you. Do you think that these civilizations were not Indo-European and that it was the invasions of the IE people who spelled the end for these civilizations, one by one? Does the idea of a large numbers of civilizations spanning Europe, similar to the Middle-Eastern ones sound too far-fetched? After all, according to Jared Diamond, the crops and livestock which gave rise to civlizations in the Fertile Crescent, were present in Europe (starting with the Balkans) as early as 5500BC. See my earlier post on the Gumelnita culture.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6877& ;PN=5

Europe certainly had areas which were fertile enough for sustaining sizeable populations. Perhaps given the abundance of wood in Europe, most towns and houses were built out of this material and thus were not well preserved, unlike mud brick buildings in Mesopotamia, or stone buildings in Egypt. Notice the similar poverty of archeological evidence for pre-Shang China, which had a similar climate and forest cover. So the only buildings left standing were those of religious? nature, like the megaliths and tumuli.

Anyway, if the IE invasion is indeed responsible for the collapse of these societies, we can see it as a similar case with the Indus valley civilization, where a very old civilization (contemporary with many of the civilizations you talk about), collapsed to complete oblivion (until very recently), and new civilizations only emerged 2 thousand years later. Perhaps in the future, archeological digs will uncover enough traces of these civilizations to show that in fact certain parts of Europe could be placed alongside the great river valles (Nile, Euphrates&Tigris, Indus and Yellow Rivers), as a cradle of civilization.

What do you think? The clues are tantalizing, but the evidence is lamentably scace...

And as an aside, you mentioned that Western Europe did not emerge out of barbarity until the Renaissance. Surely Roman Italy and Gaul would be termed civilized?



Edited by Decebal
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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 17:11

Maju,

Its o.k. that you opened a new thread about the topic : Bronze Age in Iberia. A great amount of research has to be done in this field, yet.chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

We know that the first bronze types were arsenic bronzes. They were discovered by chance because most copper ores contain arsenic amounts, naturally, and after the reduction and melting process you get automatically an arsenic bronze with 1 - 3 % arsenic instead of pure copper. Arsenic bronzes have the same good mechanical properties as tin bronze, sometimes better, they can be forged and hardened. But there were also disadvantages: A very high skill was necessary to produce arsenic bronze tools or weapons in uniform quality, because the arsenic content in the ores was not always uniform. A special heat treatment after casting the items was necessary to get high quality products. Arsenic is volatile when the metal is melted, it goes away as very poisoneous arsenic oxide: certainly accidents were occuring, the arsenic content was varying during the working process, and the properties were not the same after remelting a broken tool, than it was before.>>

This, in my opinion, were the main reasons why all copper producing civilizations (interestingly in South America 2000-3000 years later than in Asia and  Europe) went over from arsenic bronzes to tin bronze, in the very moment this new alloy was invented. Somebody must have found out, that melting together the two metals copper (90%) and tin (10%) made available an alloy with nearly the same good properties of a good arsenic bronze. Maybe that the first invention came from a natural mix of copper and tin ores. In any case, this invention could only be done in a region, where copper ores and tin ores could have been found in great vicinity. I am not sure, now, because I have no book and no link here in the clinic, where this was the case, but I remember one place in the Sierra Morena in southern Iberia and one place in eastern Anatolia.>>

When you look at the freight of the Uluburun ship (western coast of Turkey in the Aegean sea; I gave you he link earlier), which sunk 1250 BC, that is nearly the time you spoke about, you find 9 tons of cast copper bars (so calles oxhide bars), probably from Cyprus, and 1 ton of tin bars (cup bars) of unknown origin. The finders think, that this tin came from Anatolia. Afghanistan is too far away for supplying the Mediterranean with bigger amounts of this metal.>>

Anyway, the question of the tin supply seems to me a fundamental one for understanding the Bronze Age.>>

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Ulf
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  Quote Ulf Richter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 17:41

Maju,

"in Western Europe it seems the end of a much more glorious phase to sink into barbarism for some 2600 years. "

As Decebal, I cannot quite agree with your radical opinion about 2600 years of barbarism in western Europe. During the Roman Empire in Italy, France, Iberia, North Africa was a very high culture and civilization enclosing all parts of city constructions, transport means, trade into the whole known world, work diversification (the fish sauce "garum" was exported from south Spain into the whole Roman empire), theaters, justice and so on.

The Moorish invadors - in tradition of the Vandals who were exmitted from "Vandalusia" by  the Visigoths and settled then in North Africa - erected a very high culture in southern Iberia with the city of Cordobe having 1 millions of inhabitants and one of the most famous universities of this times in the whole world.

This doesnt sound like "Barbarism"



Edited by Ulf Richter
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 17:49
Originally posted by Decebal

Europe certainly had areas which were fertile enough for sustaining sizeable populations. Perhaps given the abundance of wood in Europe, most towns and houses were built out of this material and thus were not well preserved, unlike mud brick buildings in Mesopotamia, or stone buildings in Egypt.



Wood tends to be depleted rather rapidly around large settlements, forcing the use of alternate materials. Also, the earliest Mesopotamian sites are not of mud brick - they are simple reed shelters.In Egypt, it was reed and wickerwork.

Perhaps in the future, archeological digs will uncover enough traces of these civilizations to show that in fact certain parts of Europe could be placed alongside the great river valles (Nile, Euphrates&Tigris, Indus and Yellow Rivers), as a cradle of civilization.



I think Europe won't really go down as a "cradle of civilization", since realistically by 5500 BC, agrarian culture and large settlements had already been around 2 thousand years, depending on the location. By 6000 BC, Jericho was a city with extensive irrigation.

Still, I think prehistoric Europe is becoming far more sophisticated than previously thought. We tend to think it impossible that non-urban cultures could be sophisticated, but it seems that this is not necessarily the case at all.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 23:00
Originally posted by Maju

Urnfields' and Hallstatt people show a culture of clear proto-Celtic characters (use of torques, for instance) and the move of Urnfields in very few decades, maybe even just a matter of years, in many directions (west, SW, SE, etc.), implies a sudden explossion whose only explanation is the formateion and release of an invading "horde".


You got me digging now and  I found and interesting article that seems to make a connection of the sudden spread of Urnfield peoples of the  Danube Basin to the collapse of the Bronze cultures of the Eastern Mediteranean implying a connection of events to the Sea Peoples...

Around 1400 BC the Tumulus people extended their influence over the whole middle Danube Basin and to the Adriatic Coast.  As Urnfield peoples, they caused a upheaval in the Balkans in Anatolia and in the east Mediterranean region before and around 1200 BC.  Their graves and posts are found in Macedonia, while their weapons are found in Greece, Crete, Cypres, Syria, Palestine and Egypt. The destruction of the Mycenaean culture is attributed the middle Danubian Urnfield invasion through the Balkans peninsula and the Adriatic Sea. The Urnfield peoples were Indo-European speakers, parent to Venetan and to perhaps Phrygian, Mysian, and Armenian. In past research they were assumed to be Illyrians, but this name can only be used as a broad cover name and should not be confused with the Illyrians proper, known since the time of Herodotus in Dalmatia, Bosnia and Hercegovina. This  period of raids and migrations instigated by central European Urnfield peoples resulted in a Phrygian, Mysian, and Armenian exodus to Anatolia, the destruction of the Hittite Empire, the Dorian infiltration into Greece, and the introduction of Iron technology and a new ethnic configuration in the balkans.

Source
Encyclopaedia Britannica 1984
Balkans, History of  Page 2-614
...

Maybe their migrations went west to Iberia as well

What do you think

Craig



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 23:30
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Maju


You mean that you think that the invaders of the Urnfields culture, who show clear Celtic iconography, are Iberians?


As I mentioned, I'm not entirely clear on either the evidence behind the Iberian presence in Britain nor its arrival, but it seems to be relatively well-established. From what I gather, the thinking is that early Iberian arrivals established themselves, but were pushed to the traditional fringes (Wales and Scotland) by Celtic invaders around 500 BC (again, if there was an invasion and not just a cultural shift). The Picts, I believe, are thought to have been distinct from Gaelic/Celtic peoples and are thought to be of Iberian stock.


I don't think there was much "Iberian" inmigration into Britain as such but rather it would seem that British are from the same stock of other Western Europeans, sometimes dubbed as "Iberian" a little to happily (it would be better described as Basque, surely).

If there was any Iberian input in British stock after the epi-Paleolithic, it must have arrived with either Neolithic and/or Megalithism, most likely with the second phenomenon, which means that, while keeping many diferences, the peoples of the Atlantic coasts of Europe were united by sailing (cod fishing initially, trade later) and spirituality (Megalithic religion?). They probably spoke related "Magdalenian" languages and had simmilar ancestral customs, what helped to their union.

Atlantic peoples, rather than "Iberian" seem Western aboriginals. Their genetical mark show also a clear presence in places like Denmark, Germany and Italy, even as east as Hungary. Instead is rather rare in more eastern areas or in places of late colonization such as Sweden.

Urnfields are rather the avantguard of Celts, though it's difficult to state that they were just Celts. It rather would seem an agglomerate of diferent peoples: Celts, Illyrians and Italics being the most commonly mentioned.

The origin of the Picts is much debated. I like the "Iberian" theory but there are others.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 00:09
Originally posted by Decebal

Fascinating discussion Maju. I'm very glad you have opened it. My knowledge of this area of history is a bit fuzzy, but I have some questions for you. Do you think that these civilizations were not Indo-European and that it was the invasions of the IE people who spelled the end for these civilizations, one by one?



Definitively there's an overall IE advance westwards but I have the feeling that, despite the obvious military tendencies of IEs, not everything can be blamed in their aggresivity nor it's clear that their actions were the only cause that precipitated the end of western civilizations and aboriginal culture.

It's quite clear that being in the edge of the world and not in the center, Atlantic peoples were a little too out of touch with whatever was being cooked in the center of the World: in the Near East and nearby areas.

It does seem that they avoid being absorbed by the waves of neolithic cultures, thanks maybe to a climatic "protection" (too wet for the early farmers?) and to the buffering of some areas, most notably, Andalusian Neolithic, of unknown origing but important in the creation of the southern branch of Atlantic Neolithic, on which VNSP will grow.

It does seem that Atlantic cultures managed to step into the Chalcolithic with little retard and strong footing. The reason being uncertain, though.

But they show a quite clear retard in the Bronze Age and much more in the Iron Age.

VNSP for instance remains out of the use of Bronze, or so it seems, while this tech advances around it and, I would say, against it. When the region reaches Bronze tech, in the context of the Atlantic Bronze complex, it is not anymore a civilization and it is lagging behind neighbours that are soon after acessing Iron Tech already.

What IEs seem to have got is good contacts with the East and a worthless land that nobody else wanted. Atlantic peoples, instead had a rich land and a much more limited contact with the East. Though this seems to happen only, since the rising of El Argar and Mycenae. Before the contact with the East seems more fluid.

Yet Argarians, while Hellenized, don't seem IE at all... but Iberians (Mediterranean Iberians to be more precise and not mix them too much with rather diferent Atlantic Iberians).


Does the idea of a large numbers of civilizations spanning Europe, similar to the Middle-Eastern ones sound too far-fetched? After all, according to Jared Diamond, the crops and livestock which gave rise to civlizations in the Fertile Crescent, were present in Europe (starting with the Balkans) as early as 5500BC. See my earlier post on the Gumelnita culture.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6877& ; ;PN=5

Europe certainly had areas which were fertile enough for sustaining sizeable populations. Perhaps given the abundance of wood in Europe, most towns and houses were built out of this material and thus were not well preserved, unlike mud brick buildings in Mesopotamia, or stone buildings in Egypt. Notice the similar poverty of archeological evidence for pre-Shang China, which had a similar climate and forest cover. So the only buildings left standing were those of religious? nature, like the megaliths and tumuli.

Well, we have a rather good idea of the stage of civilization and culture in Europe in the diferent periods. Definitively some regions (particularly the Iberian peninsula) must be studied with much more intensity and funding but the overall picture would seem rather clear.

So, I don't think there were such a chain of "civilizations" but rather that these existed only in certain strategic areas. Yet we do have in Bulgaria a kingdom that is older than Egypt (contemporary of earliest Troy) and this could have sown another short-lived realm in Eastern Hungary. We do have socio-cultural organizations in Central Europe after these that could well be considered states, even if they don't show the strong centralization nor the personal cult of a monarchy - let's consider them tribal alliances maybe.

We do have some still ill explained complex with the Iberia-Britain (including France too) cultural region. We kow that some sort of central organization was active in Britain, though it could be just a religious one. We know that some regions of Iberia displayed an archaic civilization, which are mentined above - and I think we do wrongly in callind them just "castros" and "cultures" and not civilizations, despite of the fact that they show complex fortified town creation and stratified social organization.

But I doubt that a whole chain of civs will appear. There's much to study in North Africa and, as some have pointed, the alluvial region of the Gudalquivir valley could well offer much more striking data if excavated throughtly. There are defintively regions on which much more could be know... but I think that whatever we may find will mostly be an extension of what we already know.


Anyway, if the IE invasion is indeed responsible for the collapse of these societies, we can see it as a similar case with the Indus valley civilization, where a very old civilization (contemporary with many of the civilizations you talk about), collapsed to complete oblivion (until very recently), and new civilizations only emerged 2 thousand years later. Perhaps in the future, archeological digs will uncover enough traces of these civilizations to show that in fact certain parts of Europe could be placed alongside the great river valles (Nile, Euphrates&Tigris, Indus and Yellow Rivers), as a cradle of civilization.

What do you think? The clues are tantalizing, but the evidence is lamentably scace...

And as an aside, you mentioned that Western Europe did not emerge out of barbarity until the Renaissance. Surely Roman Italy and Gaul would be termed civilized?



I'm not sure that the colapse of the Indus Valley civ was only a product of IE invasion. But sure that IEs showed a unique expansive pattern that is still working.

I agree that Etruscan and Roman Italy can be termed civilized, as should the Western Mediterranean arch, from Onuba to Nicaea. But I think that the Atlantic "interior" was only slightly civilized by the influence of Rome. In this sense, it remained strongly provincial and underdeveloped until the Middle Ages and later. There was not a single Atlantic major city worth that name before the Renaissance. There were towns but none of great importance.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 00:17
Originally posted by Ulf Richter

Maju,

"in Western Europe it seems the end of a much more glorious phase to sink into barbarism for some 2600 years. "

As Decebal, I cannot quite agree with your radical opinion about 2600 years of barbarism in western Europe. During the Roman Empire in Italy, France, Iberia, North Africa was a very high culture and civilization enclosing all parts of city constructions, transport means, trade into the whole known world, work diversification (the fish sauce "garum" was exported from south Spain into the whole Roman empire), theaters, justice and so on.

The Moorish invadors - in tradition of the Vandals who were exmitted from "Vandalusia" by  the Visigoths and settled then in North Africa - erected a very high culture in southern Iberia with the city of Cordobe having 1 millions of inhabitants and one of the most famous universities of this times in the whole world.

This doesnt sound like "Barbarism"



I was thinking more in Atlantic Europe than in Mediterranean Western Europe. You can't but agree that until, at least, the High Middle Ages there's no native civilized force in the Atlantic area of Europe at all.

Visigoths are totally barbaric, by the way. What did they do other than ruling agricultural fiefs? Only with the fairs of Champagne and all that starts Atlantic Europe having some civilized life of its own again. In the meantime it was just a region of little value and lesser culture.

The first major city of Western Europe after all these 2600 years is surely Paris... you can start pondering when can Paris be considered a big city...

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