Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

General Islamic/Turkish victories over the Crusaders

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Dari View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 205
  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: General Islamic/Turkish victories over the Crusaders
    Posted: 10-Nov-2004 at 07:13

Most of my knowledge is from that of Western or Christian viewpoints of the Crusades (particularly the First to Fourth). So if someone could give me the other side of the story that would be great. Also, what are signifigant Islamic victories during the Crusades (supposedly there are eight of them) ?

 



Dari is a pimp master
Back to Top
Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 557
  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 01:22
The Horns of Hattin definitely qualifies...
"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
Back to Top
faram View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl
Avatar

Joined: 28-Aug-2004
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote faram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2004 at 14:15
A great book about the crusaders is "The crusades seen since the point of view of the Arabs", by Amin Malouf (the name of the book is a direct translation from the Spanish, I don't know if it is the original title)
Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 09:32

Anatolian Selchukid Sultan Kilij Arslan made Anatolia a hell for the Crusaders:

The First Crusade,1096-1099

The first Crusader army commanded by Pierre L'hermite selected the Anatolia way:his army would pass Constantinople and Anatolia and they would have arrived Jerusalem.But his army was full of pillagers;they were not elite soldiers although their number was 100.000.Well-trained Turkish armies defeated them easily;especially in Antioch there was a big massacre.

However,after them,four chevalier armies set off:Two of them was commanded Godefroi de Bouillon and they set off from North France,and South Lorraine.The third one was commanded by count of Toulouse,Raimond de Saint Gilles and the last one had been coming from Italy and was commanded by the popecy delegation I.Bohemond.

These chevaliers captured the Selchukid capital Iznik(Nikaia or Nicosia),they defeated armies of Kilij Arslan;they were very good fighters as well as they were crowded.But after a guerilla fight began between Seljuks and crusaders.Seljuk armies followed all steps of Crusaders and they attacked them constantly.Crusaders had big casualties because of these hit-and-run attacks.

Finally the Crusaders captured Antioch and Urfa(Edessa) but while passing Syria the couldn't work as a team,the armies separated but they were successfull in the end,they captured Syrian Meditterenean coast,Jerusalem,Antioch,Urfa,Damascus.

 



Edited by Jagatai Khan
Back to Top
TJK View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 367
  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Dec-2004 at 14:49
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

The First Crusade,1096-1099

The first Crusader army commanded by Pierre L'hermite selected the Anatolia way:his army would pass Constantinople and Anatolia and they would have arrived Jerusalem.But his army was full of pillagers;they were not elite soldiers although their number was 100.000.Well-trained Turkish armies defeated them easily;especially in Antioch there was a big massacre

In fact the Peter Hermit's Poor People Crusade numbered 30-40 thousand people..and yes, they have been slaughtered by Seljuks near Nicea... but I think much more glorious for the Seljuks was defeat of IInd Crusade..   



Edited by TJK
Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 16:02

In fact the Peter Hermit's Poor People Crusade numbered 30-40 thousand people

I used to know it 100.000;the all sources I read about that shows 100.000.

but I think much more glorious for the Seljuks was defeat of IInd Crusade..

Which defeat?In second crusade,Turks didn't play a big role like in the first one,and also Seljuks heavily beated the army of III.Konrad in Anatolia.

Back to Top
ihsan View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 831
  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2004 at 16:06

Most of my knowledge is from that of Western or Christian viewpoints of the Crusades (particularly the First to Fourth). So if someone could give me the other side of the story that would be great. Also, what are signifigant Islamic victories during the Crusades (supposedly there are eight of them) ?

There are actually too many battles and sieges fought between the Turks and Crusaders that I can't list them all - I know only a few, in fact

The Seljks of Rm (Anatolia), the Greater Seljks, the Atabeghs of Zang and Bri and the Mamlks of Egypt-Syria all fought against the Crusaders. There were also the Ayybids, whose majority of the troops were Turkish despite the fact that being ruled by a probably non-Turkish family. The only Arabic states the Crusaders fought were the Ftmids and the Tunisians (sorry, I can't remember the Tunisian dynasty of the 13th century).

As TJK said, the greatest Turkish victory over the Crusaders was the Second Crusade - though I would also nominate the Mamlk conquest of the last Crusader outposts.

The first Crusader army commanded by Pierre L'hermite selected the Anatolia way:his army would pass Constantinople and Anatolia and they would have arrived Jerusalem.But his army was full of pillagers;they were not elite soldiers although their number was 100.000.Well-trained Turkish armies defeated them easily;especially in Antioch there was a big massacre.

Hmm, you seem to have confused the vanguard and the main crusader armies. The vanguard was commanded by Pierre L'Hermite and a poor knight whom I can't recall his name. It surely didn't have 100,000 men but at least half of it. And it was totally destroyed near Nikaea before advancing deeper into Anatolia. It was the real army that landed to Anatolia after the vanguard was destroyed.

These chevaliers captured the Selchukid capital Iznik(Nikaia or Nicosia)

Not exactly. The Crusaders besieged and almost captured it but the Seljkid garrison surrendered to the Byzantines, so the Crusaders couldn't capture the city and loot it. The Crusaders were surely pissed off a lot, that's probably why they didn't give Antioch back to the Byzantines.

[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

Steppes History Forum
Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 14:22

I always read it 100.000 in lesson books and encyclopedias.

Now it is 40.000 for me

I will write the cruelty of Richard the Lionhearted soon,(I told some of the story to the Turkish forummers)but I have a little information,I would be glad if someone helps.

Back to Top
ihsan View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 831
  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 15:13

I always read it 100.000 in lesson books and encyclopedias.

Most stuff written in the course books are inaccurate.

I will write the cruelty of Richard the Lionhearted soon,(I told some of the story to the Turkish forummers)but I have a little information,I would be glad if someone helps.

I would like to learn it too.

[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

Steppes History Forum
Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 12:55

I forgot it unfortunately,but I remember the main lines.

 

III.Crusade

Crusader army commanded by Frederick I comes to Konya,great Selchuk city and Selchuk's new capital.

City is fortified heavily,well trained soldiers and city's defences were unable to defeat.The commander of Turkish armies was Prince Mesud(I think).

First rushes of Frederick were unsuccessfull.He begins thinking.Then he sees the city's graveyard which was outside of the city.A great idea comes to his mind....

He immediately orders his soldiers:"Men,open this graves and show the corpses"Soldiers listen their king;they pillages the graves and takes thebodies.They begin tortures on dead bodies.They break the bones,they do lots of unbelievable tortures to bodies.

The most important fact is;they do these things in front of Selchuk soldiers.Selchuk soldiers begin to become low spirited,some of them leaves the army.The tortures are unbelievable.The people of Konya can't stand against these.

Then Crusaders begin to attack.Already,Seljuk soldiers begin to leave the battle.Crusaders easily take the city....

This story isn't known so much but it is a real story which was written in Selchukid sources.When I first read it I was about to have a heart attack.



Edited by Jagatai Khan
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 14:19
but Richard wasn't even close to Konya in the thrid Crusade, in fact it was Frederick I. who took the route through asia minor and besiegeing as well as taking the city.
Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 09:27

Was it Richard?Oh sorry I said I forgot the story.

edited

Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 09:34

Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Crusader army commanded by Frederick I comes to Konya,great Selchuk city and Selchuk's new capital.(...)First rushes of Frederick were unsuccessfull.He begins thinking.Then he sees the city's graveyard which was outside of the city.A great idea comes to his mind....He immediately orders his soldiers:"Men,open this graves and show the corpses"Soldiers listen their king;they pillages the graves and takes thebodies.They begin tortures on dead bodies.They break the bones,they do lots of unbelievable tortures to bodies.The most important fact is;they do these things in front of Selchuk soldiers.Selchuk soldiers begin to become low spirited,some of them leaves the army.The tortures are unbelievable.The people of Konya can't stand against these.Then Crusaders begin to attack.Already,Seljuk soldiers begin to leave the battle.Crusaders easily take the city....

Brilliant! Go Frederick!

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 23:15

Originally posted by ihsan

Not exactly. The Crusaders besieged and almost captured it but the Seljkid garrison surrendered to the Byzantines, so the Crusaders couldn't capture the city and loot it. The Crusaders were surely pissed off a lot, that's probably why they didn't give Antioch back to the Byzantines.

True, but the Crusaders were also pissed when Alexius' army (2000 peltasts) under General Taticius did not come to relieve after hearing the situation at Antioch was hopeless.

Bad point in Byzantine-Crusader relations.

Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 08:21

Brilliant! Go Frederick!

Infidel,is this you?

*disappointed*

Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 08:41

Yes, it is I...

Don't be disappointed, I'm just saying that Frederick had a brilliant ideia in order to win the battle. Don't you agree?

I'm supposing you're not a crusader for Islam, are you?

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
ihsan View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 831
  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 14:58

AFAIK Friedrich captured the city but he couldn't capture the citadel of Konya, so he just destroyed the residential areas.

Is this correct?

[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

Steppes History Forum
Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2005 at 06:12

Don't be disappointed, I'm just saying that Frederick had a brilliant ideia in order to win the battle. Don't you agree?

They are my ancestors,I can't agree.The idea is disgusting in my opinion

I'm supposing you're not a crusader for Islam, are you?

OF COURSE NO!

 

Back to Top
Turk View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 23-Dec-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 103
  Quote Turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 00:29

The crusades were idiotic and embarassingly executed...Inspired by an ideology where digging up graves and torturing dead bodies is "brilliant".

Hail the Pope.

Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 06:09

 

I'm supposing you're not a crusader for Islam, are you?

i think we need someone called Islamcrusader to fight Christcrusader 

just joking

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.