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Japanese soldiers involved in the Imjin War

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  Quote Elerosse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Japanese soldiers involved in the Imjin War
    Posted: 22-May-2006 at 04:51
Unless u bring me the sources, I dont believe it.
I dont think u can compare Nazi with Ming, since Nazi made massacres on their ENERMY, not their allied.
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  Quote Hando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 16:58
Originally posted by Elerosse

Unless u bring me the sources, I dont believe it.
I dont think u can compare Nazi with Ming, since Nazi made massacres on their ENERMY, not their allied.


Huhh?! I dont get your reasoning, cos I think it's worse to massacre your allies than your enemies. And I know that actually the German's were not allowed to loot or rape or steal/murder their western allies such as Danish, French, Belgian and Dutch. If they did, they were court martialled and shot. The German's were very strict on their own soldiers and any infraction such as these were immediately punished.


Edited by Hando - 23-May-2006 at 17:00
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 02:44
I'm looking up sources as I type.  I hope to get back to you soon on that.
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  Quote Elerosse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 21:17
sry, typed wrong. What I meant was, that Nazi german only made massacre on their proper enermy; Judes etc., but they kept their fingers from Aryan races.
The well-diciplined Ming soldiers wouldn't terrorise locals without permission of their general, and Li Rusong and his father was one of the best/strict generals of Ming. They obey the emperors order without any question, which means they won't allow their troops to terrorise locals, since it's against Mings foreign policy.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2006 at 12:47
Elerose,
 
My understanding is that the Northern Armies of the Ming was the best of the best.  I cannot see how any looting by the Ming not be reported to the Ming generals via their Korean counterparts.  The Ming Generals more likely than not did something to stop the looting.  How effective they were is unknown.
 
Basically, I am pretty sure there was looting by the Ming armies.  Was it as bad as the Japanese looting?  Hard to tell, but in war there will always be looting.  Only in modern era with the advent of television/internet, can actrocies and crimes agains humanity be known.
 
During the Crusades, those European Knights committed numerous criminal acts in Palestine, so the Ming is not alone. You can say the same for any armies, Huns, Mongols, Tang, Ming, Korea, Japanese, etc...
 
It is war.  Some have this noble vision of how warfare was.  They are dislusional.  It is ugly, uncivilized, brutal, & unjust. 
 
Yes, Li Rusong was a very good/dicipline general, but not many generals cannot command that kind of dicipline.  Of course I don't know specifically, I am just making a general statement.
 
But during all these posts from various individuals, I like to post another question to all.  Would Korea be better of if Ming China did not get involved in the Imjin War?
 
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2006 at 20:10
Very nice signature Elerosse! Thumbs Up
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2006 at 21:42
Originally posted by poirot

Very nice signature Elerosse! Thumbs Up
 
Never knew that you can read Chinese? no offence tho, it just surprised me about it. :)
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2006 at 23:57
I read many languages Smile

Edited by poirot - 26-May-2006 at 23:58
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  Quote Elerosse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 08:40
Originally posted by poirot

Very nice signature Elerosse! Thumbs Up
 
Thx m8. Smile It's my favored poem.
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  Quote Elerosse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 08:41
I agreed that Ming soldiers must have done some bad stuff, but to say that they were as bad as Japanese is too harsh.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 09:09

I also appreciate Gubook's signature, its wider implemented and proven true countless times.



Edited by The Charioteer - 27-May-2006 at 09:10
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2006 at 14:15
Ok according Wang Kon 936 over at CHF pages 314-315 of Samuel Hawley's book The Imjin War details any wrong doings done by the Ming armies.  Does anyone have this book?
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 12:04
Eleroose,
 
I tend to doubt it too that the Ming Armies actrocities were as bad as the Japanese. 
 
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 15:20
Undoubtedly, the Ming Army had commited atrocity during the time when garrisoned in Korea as one forumer had pointed out looting and raping was inevitable during the medieval warfare. However, by saying the extent of the atrocity perpetrated by the Ming Army was as much  as Japanese Army is highly unbelievable. If the Ming Army was really as bad as the Japanese Army as someone claimed , why were so many Korean still faithful to the Ming regime even after the downfall in 1644 when the Manchus invaded Beijing.  Here is one statement written in Classical Chinese by the one of the Korean official at that time to stress the relationship between Ming China and Joseon Dynasty:
 
 
"我朝三百年來,服事大明,其情其義,固不暇言。而神宗皇帝(明神宗萬歷皇帝朱翊鈞)再造之恩,自開闢以來,亦未聞於載籍者。宣祖大王所謂義則君臣,恩猶父子,實是真誠痛切語也."
 
It roughly translates as " The Joeson Dynasty has been serving faithfully  the Ming China for the past three hundred years. The bond was uncuttable between the two nations . The grace that have been given by Emperor Wanli (means sending troops in Imjin War) was a like rebirth to a child by a father."
 
King Hyojong of Joseon Dynasty even plotted to assist in restoring the Ming Regime but was never able to put in action because of internal issue and the growing mightiness of Manchu Qing Dynasty.
 
Not to mention till the end of Qing Dynasty in the 19th Century, many Korean still secretly used the reigning title of the Last Ming Emperor . Songzhen 崇禎in remembrance instead of the contemporary Manchu Emperor reigning title.
 


Edited by Killabee - 31-May-2006 at 12:25
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 15:30
Korea's "Taebotan"(大报坛), "Chonchu Samyong"(尊周思明)
 
Taebotan:(Altar of Great Gratitude)
 
"The Living Authority: Ming Taizu in Late Choson Korea"
Seung B. Kye, University of Washington

This paper provides the historical background of the conservative Korean attitude toward the outer world in the late nineteenth century within the context of the politico-intellectual trend after the Manchu compromise in 1637. With the Ming entry into the Imjin War (1592-98), also known as the Hideyoshi invasions of Korea, Ming China was honored in Korea as the suzerain-father who gave Chosŏn a second life. Consequently, the Ming became the object for Chosŏn filial piety and loyalty. After the surrender to the Manchus in 1637, however, the Korean leadership faced an ideological crisis because the Manchu compromise signified that the king and court officials themselves violated the two primary values, loyalty and filial piety, on which the ruling mechanism of the dynasty had been based.

The establishment and enlargement of the Altar of Great Gratitude (Taebodan) was designed to offset the violation' and demonstrate visibly Chosŏn's fulfillment of its righteous obligations to the fallen Ming regardless of the circumstances. The 'post-Ming' Korean kings performed sacrifices for three Ming emperors, with emphasis on Ming Taizu, on the anniversaries of their deaths every year. These sacrifices were regularly performed even after Chosŏn opened up its ports to Western powers in the early 1880's, and continued until Seoul was occupied by the Japanese in the early phase of the Sino-Japanese War in 1894. This suggests that the majority of the Korean elites still lived spiritually under the imaginary Ming order, and thereby could not respond to the new order effectively.

"Chonchu sameyong":(revering the Zhou and longing for the Ming)
 
"Choson抯 Memories of Ming and the Influence on Its Relations with Qing, 1637-1800 --  A Reinterpretation on the Tributary Relations between Qing and Choson Korea "
Sun Weiguo
This study investigates the reasons and the symbolic representations of Choson's 朝鮮 Chonchu Samyong 尊周思明 (revering the Zhou and longing for the Ming) and how this Chonchu Samyong's thought influences the relation between Qing and Choson. A careful examination of the Confucian legitimacy and the hwa-i thoughts 華夷觀 reflects the historical roots of Choson's Chonchu Samyong. Though Choson has a totally different psychological and cultural attitude towards Ming and Qing even both dynasties are its suzerain states. Precisely, since Choson considers Ming Dynasty as the Central Kingdom of the Chinese World, it shows much more respect to Ming. Mohwa 慕華 (the admiration of Chinese culture) and Sadae 事大  (the recognition of regarding China as its suzerain state) are Choson's attitude to Ming. On the other hand, since Choson considers Qing dynasty barbarians, and it denies itself as a tributary state of Qing. Choson's different attitudes towards Ming and Qing is basically the reason contributing to the legitimacy and Hwua-yi ideas.


Edited by The Charioteer - 31-May-2006 at 15:18
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 15:43

Choson's revering the Zhou and longing for the Ming : the influence of Ming China on Choson Korea, 1637-1800 Sun weiguo

Abstract:  This study investigates the reasons and the symbolic representations of Choson's Chonchu Samyong (revering the Zhou and longing for the Ming) and how this Chonchu Samyong's thought influences the relation between Qing and Choson. A careful examination of the Confucian legitimacy and the hwa-i thoughts reflects the historical roots of Choson's Chonchu Samyong. Though Choson has a totally different psychological and cultural attitude towards Ming and Qing even both dynasties are its suzerain states. Precisely, since Choson considers Ming Dynasty as the Central Kingdom of the Chinese World, it shows much more respect to Ming. Mohwa (the admiration of Chinese culture) and Sadae (the recognition of regarding China as its suzerain state) are Choson's attitude to Ming. On the other hand, since Choson considers Qing dynasty barbarians, and it denies itself as a tributary state of Qing. Choson's different attitudes towards Ming and Qing is basically the reason contributing to the rise of the thought of Chonchu Samyong. The second part of this dissertation shows that the symbolic representations of Choson's Chonchu Samyong are manifested in three different aspects. First, a number of temples and altars, such as Taebodan, Mamdongmyo and Taetongmyo, are built by Choson Kings, Confucianists and descendents of the adherents of Ming, to express their longing for Ming. Second, even though Qing reign titles are adopted formally, the Ming Chongzhen and Yongli's reign titles are nevertheless used earnestly. Third, books about Song/Ming history and Choson's Chonchu Samyong are compiled officially and privately. All these representations aim at strengthening Choson's succeeding the legitimacy of Ming China. Lastly, the influence of Choson's Chonchu Samyong thought on the relations between Qing and Choson is examined from a totally new perspective. Precisely, in addition to investigating the relations between Qing and Choson from the traditional tributary system, this paper proposes that Choson's antagonistic attitude towards Qing should also be considered. As a matter of fact, Choson's superficial loyalty and its internal antagonistic attitudes towards Qing characterize well its relation with Qing.
Description:  Thesis (Ph.D.)--Hong Kong University of Science and Technology, 2001



Edited by The Charioteer - 30-May-2006 at 21:29
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 16:28
"朝明联合军战殁慰灵碑"
This is a memorial stone in Sacheon city, South Korea.
on it write in Chinese character "in commemoration of joint-Choson-Ming army's effort in battle(during Imjin war)"
 
为怀念"遥远异域土地上,不归的恨客那些明代盟邦民的深厚战友爱.特立此碑,以表对朝明联合军灵的祭奠."
 
inscription on the back of this commemorate stele,
in commemoration of "on faraway foreign soil,who will never return(to home land)--- the allied men from Ming dynasty, their friendship as brother in arms. So this stele is erected, to remember those Choson and Ming soldiers who had fallen"
 
there behind this stele, buried in the hill, are more than 3,6000 fallen Choson and Ming soldiers.
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 12:01
Thanks for the pictures.  Never knew they had a memorial in S. Korea.  Did you take those pictures yourself or it came from a website?
 
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 17:24
At the outbreak of Manchus Invasion, many Chinese took refuge to Korea to avoid Manchus ruling.  Many of them were Imjin War veteran who chose Korea due to familiarity with the land. Among all of them was the descendant of Admiral Chen Lin, who was well-known for the battle of Noryang which he commanded along with Korean admiral Yi Shun-Shin to defeat the remnant of Japanese Navy.  I will post the picture of one of the descendant of Chen Lin who returned to China from Korea to visit his ancestral home couple years ago.
 
So why would Korea welcomely shelter all these Chinese refugee if the Chinese had commited serious atrocity in the Imjin War as someone allegedly claimed? By common sense, if the argument is correct the Korean would certainly hate the Chinese to death given the Chinese had inflicted so much pain on Korean.
 
 
 
 
Chen Bang-ji, 14th Generation descendant  of Admiral Chen Lin walking with villagers in his ancestral home located in Kwangtung Province (note he is wearing traditional Korean Hanbook).
 
 
He stood by the tomb of his forefather, Admiral Chen Lin.
 


Edited by Killabee - 31-May-2006 at 23:16
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 12:09

Charioteer & Killabee,

Thanks for the info. and the story about Admiral Chen Lin & Chen Bang-ji. 
 
Jiangwei
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