Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The Tarascan Empire

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Tarascan Empire
    Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 16:34

Does anybody know anything about the Tarascans? like the history? military, technology and religion?

I think I am not Mexican! because all my family comes from Guanaguato and Michoacan. They have always lived their also. So I think I am Tarascan(Purepecha). Their is also alot of people in my highschool from Michoacan and guanaguato who always talk about Tarasco and that they are Tarascans and not Mexicans. I want to take one of those DNA tests to make sure!

Can somebody help me!



Edited by ITZOCELOTL
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 17:32

   

        I don't have time right now to go to my books so this is from memory, such as it is.

         Tarascan culture is generally thought to have begun around 1,000 AD running to roughly 1500 AD.   Most of what I know of them comes from their ceramics.

          They produced very unique redware, having stirrup shaped appearance and finely worked details very different from, say the aztecs.  Most of the examples [and there isn't many good ones available] have a marine motif.  

             I realize this isn't much but i'm pressed for time right now.  One other thing, their language does not seem to be related to any other, and their origins are, as far as I know, uncertain.  Ain't much, but I hope it helps.  

 

"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 19:03

The Tarascans are a mysterious people. Linguistically the Tarascan language comes from the same group as Quechua the tongue of the Inca. They also appear to have had trade links with Andean people.

The Tarascans hadn't developed writing but were able to give the Spanish an oral migration history identifying Curzo in Peru as their origin. Telling how their ancestors wandered for many moons before reaching the mouth of a great river, the journey continued by sea, reputedly on the backs of turtles. The Spanish concluded that the river must have been the Orinoco. The Tarascans reported after their sea journey they landed at Veracruz on the Gulf of Mexico. Many Spanish chronicles believed this to be a poetic myth though.

 



Edited by Paul
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 20:41
What about Tarascan military and religion? I know they were the best black smith in Meso-america and had metal swords or copper swords. Did they have elite warriors like the Jaguar and Eagle knights? Archers and how they fought on the field.

Edited by ITZOCELOTL
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 21:14

Very little is known about the Tarascans, they were wiped out by disease long before the Spanish had any contact with them. So the only accounts around are those of their enemy, the Aztecs.

Militarily they were pretty similar to most cultures in Mexico, using archers, tepoztopilli and maquahuitl. Their tactics on the field resemble Tlaxcalla more than the Aztecs, giving greater inportance to the bow and less to the sword. Mass archery seems to have been the main tactic. Presumably they would have had elite warriors, most other places had them.

Their metalwork was quite advanced in the form of artwork. They had no metal weapons though.



Edited by Paul
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Ometeoist Monk View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 18-Feb-2006
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
  Quote Ometeoist Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 21:16

Well if you are Tarascan you guys need to liberate yourselfs from Mexico. The only reason Tarasco is included as Mexico now is because the Spanish made you apart of New Spain. Today most of the government is still ruled by Spaniards or other Europeans that are corrupt. If you are Tarascon you should be proud. I know I am Mexican because my family has always lived in Tenochtitlan (Mexico city).

Here is an interesting piece in history of the Tarascos from Wikipedia.com

Princess Erendira of the Purepecha was the princess of the Purepecha or Tarascan people from about 1503-1519. She was 16-17 when the Spanish came to Mexico. The Purepecha Kingdom's leader, Tangoxoan II, had given up his kingdom and people to the Spanish after he saw the downfall of the Aztec Empire to the Spanish. After Erendira got word of the kings actions,she led a war on the Spanish. She, her father, the Tangoxoan II advisor, as well as several citizens, went atop a hill and set-up base. When the Spanish arrived, she attacked. Some say that she killed a Spanish horseman and stole his horse and trained others to use horses. In that way she led in a harsh battle. The Spanish nearly left present day Mexico. During one of the battles some Spanish warriors found the hill-top base where Erendira's ill father slept. They murdered him. Erendira got wind of this and went to her father. Some say this is when the war started going badly. There are many theories of what happened to her. Some of which include her suicide by drowning, her leaving to train others for war and that she killed herself for falling in love with a Spanish monk.



Edited by Ometeoist Monk
"Life is like a snake, a snake crawling out of its own dead skin like a dream"
"ancient Mexican saying"
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 23:31

 

    

The Purepecha language (Ethnologue/ISO code tsz), previously known as Tarascan, is a language isolate that is not even provisionally linked with any other language. It is spoken in the state of Michoacan near Lake Ptzcuaro and the Paricutn volcano. There are two main variants and perhaps a dozen minor variants, the main divider being the lake area vs. the volcanic plateau. Speakers can easily identify each other by their speech as to their region, and even their home village. Speakers take pride in keeping their "native" variety even if they have moved to another part of the region. The dialectal differences are relatively recent, though, and the speakers identify all of the variants as being part of the same language.

 From Summers Linguistics Institute of Mexico

 



Edited by red clay
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2006 at 00:54
Originally posted by ITZOCELOTL

What about Tarascan military and religion? I know they were the best black smith in Meso-america and had metal swords or copper swords. Did they have elite warriors like the Jaguar and Eagle knights? Archers and how they fought on the field.


http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/anth_3311/anth_3311_adkins_ta rascan_paper.htm

Interesting bit on the Tarascans there.

Also note that, alone among the Mesoamericans, Tarascans seem to have knowledge of bronze predating the Conquest. A large number of small bronze objects like tweezers, bells, and miniature axe-heads (currency, maybe?) have been found at Tarascan sites. I'm not sure if any weapons have ever been found or not, some people seem to think they used bronze in war but I'm not entirely certain whether it's just a supposition or whether it comes from Spanish or Aztec primary sources or whether it comes from archaeological evidence, but that they knew bronze and used it at the very least to make ritual artifacts for religious use is documented by the physical evidence.

I think the most recent work on this was done by Dr. Dorothy Hosler of MITs Center for Materials Research in Archaeology and Ethnology. Some of the results are here:

The Sacred Metallurgical Technology of Ancient West Mexico

You can also try doing a search at famsi.org, which is a really really great site for all things Mesoamerican. They have alot of articles on the most recent finds, as well as a mailing list where professionals and amateurs get together to share ideas.

Hope that helps.

Edited by edgewaters
Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2112
  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 18:07

Dear All, time ago I opened a topic on this regards.
Here's the link http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4774&PN= 1

By the way, tarasco is a bad word. It's an insult.
They are called Purepechas.
A correction needs to be made to this post. The language 'is' Purepecha. 'Tarasco' is a name given to the Purepecha by the Spaniards. 'Tarasco' means 'In Law' most common, "brother in law." When the Spaniards were chased out of the Aztec empire, they ran inwards to what is now called Michoacan, Purepecha land. The Purepecha protected their land from Aztec rule and the Aztec did not cross boundries when they attempted to finish off the Spaniards. Michoacan is humid and semi tropical, the Purepecha women often wondered around topless due to the heat. We all now what happens when half-naked women surround civilized men, this explains why the Spaniards named them "Tarascos". This also explains why the Purepecha women of today wear many layers of clothing and what is called "Rebosos". A Reboso is a robe type of cloth that wraps around their upper body and around the head, this they wear even in the summer. Today, to call a Purepecha 'Tarasco' is an insult.


Regards
http://distance.una.edu/ge102/_sp2002/0000010b.htm

Edited by Jalisco Lancer
Back to Top
Yum Kaax Pakal View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Yum Kaax Pakal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 08:49

I had read a little bit about purepechas, but as i know, they used copper spears, and thats why the aztecs cant conquer them...but maybe i read wrong.

Tha capital of the kingdom is Tzintzuntzan...i read that Tzintzuntzan was a king, but as i said, i had read very little of purepechas, so if someone can tell about Tzintzuntzan, we will be very thankful... 

Another courious fact: the purepechas tought that the lake of Patzcuaro was the entrance to the underworld...

TONEYO, TOTAHUCA MEXICA!!
Back to Top
Jalisco Lancer View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2112
  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 11:22


Aztecs did had also axe heads made of copper.
However, the obsidian was eaiser to get and manufacture rather than the copper.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 11:41
More to the point, if the Purepeche were going to use metal weapons, why not use bronze rather than copper? They had it.

As far as I know no bronze weapons have been found though. I think their reputation for defeating the Aztecs is just a matter of the Purepeche being amazing fighters (or, maybe, strategists).
Back to Top
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 12:30

What about their religion and art? symbols of any kind.

Tarasco means "relative" in Purepecha they called the Spanish that because they  kept on raping the Purepecha women but My friend says that the word Tarasco today is used as a way of saying countrymen or Comrad for Purepecha because tarasco means "relative" in Purepecha.

"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 12:33
Does anybody know any Purepecha(Tarascan) names?
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 13:54

Bronze was still relatively rare, difficult to make and valuable so only used for jewelry.

Copper is a poor material for weapons because it can't be sharped well and doesn't hold an edge, however it's very durable.

Obsidian is sharp but not durable.

For cutting cloth armour obsidian is superior to copper. However for chopping wood obsidian is far too brittle, so a copper axe much better.

As for Tarascan weapons, so far I heard of no discoveries of anything metal.

However the Tlaxacallans made a nice line of metal arrowheads for the Spanish. So perhaps should be considered the first Mexicans to manufacture metals weapons.

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Paul View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Immoderator

Joined: 21-Aug-2004
Location: Hyperborea
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 952
  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 14:12

Found out a little about the Tarascan Military,

The capital Tzintzuntzan had a population of only 25-30,000 people and the empire multiethnic consisting of Otomis, Tarascans and Nahuatl speakers.

The society was divided into King, upper nobility, lower nobility and commoners, the empire split into 4 regions each ruled by it's own lord and a chief in each village.

Common weapons were, bow and arrow, 1 and 2 handed maquahuitl, clubs, slings and cotton armour. The equipment was not evenly distributed location to location.

Veteran soldiers and Nobles carried maquahuitl or clubs, wore feathersuits and cottom armour. Commoners were unarmoured and carried bows. The army was organised into regiments of 400 men. Each carried their own food. No military training was given to commoners, although they made up most of the army.

Because the army was small and only had a few trained shock troops tactics revolved around the mass of untrained archers. The army usually deployed defensively in ambush or cover to maximise bowfire. In defence of their own territory where they had ample supply of arrows such as when invaded by the Aztecs they were a difficult foe to beat. However in attack on foreign territory where they had limited supply of arrows and too few shock troops they weren't so formidable.

 

Source Ross Hassig, War and Society in Ancient Mexico.

Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
Back to Top
Yum Kaax Pakal View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Yum Kaax Pakal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 19:26

I found this:

Throughout the PostClassic period, various West Mexican societies enriched themselves on the vibrant desert and coastal trade that extended from the American Southwest to the Valley of Mxico, Oaxaca, and beyond. Around A.D. 1300, the Tarascans emerged to dominate much of the region. Erecting a capital at Tzintzntzan along the banks of Lake Patzcuaro, they embarked on a program of military expansion that enabled them to monopolize exchange in such essentials as precious metals, feathers and turquoise and to control a territory of over 45,000 square miles (72,000 square kilometers).

While sharing in the Tolteca-Chichimeca culture of their eastern and southern contemporaries, the Tarascans were also uniquely possessed of South American influences in customs and dress that had resulted from over a millenium of intermittent trade with Ecuadorian peoples. It was through West Mxico that the most sophisticated metallurgical techniques were first introduced from South America, and no one excelled at its production better than the Tarascan coppersmiths who created masterpieces of intricate design. In 1480, the Tarascans had begun to move eastward where they encountered a new foe, the vanguard of a new Aztec state with expansionist ambitions equal to their own. Emboldened by their successes in the region, an Aztec army proceeded far beyond the extent of their supply lines and were set upon by the Tarascans in such numbers that they were totally annihilated. It was later remembered as the greatest single military defeat ever suffered by the Aztec Empire of the Triple Alliance up to the time of the Spanish Conquest.

Tzintzntzan was constructed on a terraced slope overlooking the northern arm of Lake Patzcuaro where fishing was, and still is, a predominant industry in the region. Tzintzntzan's main platform was surmounted by five circular structures called ycatas. Each was surmounted by a wooden temple with a thatched roof dedicated to the sun god Curicaueri and his brothers.

Extracted from:http://www.famsi.org/research/pohl/sites/tzintzuntzan.h tml

TONEYO, TOTAHUCA MEXICA!!
Back to Top
ITZOCELOTL View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 22-Dec-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 84
  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 21:10
So does anybody know Purepecha names? symbols or art? Did they have a flag or anything?
"It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees"
   -Emiliano Zapata-    
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 01:56
Bit more about Purepeche military ...

... But most singular, [the Tarascans] played the Aztec warfare game and did not lose. It was the last that captured my attention. The place of investigation was obviously the Tarascan-Aztec frontier. I learned there how the Tarascans ran their frontier and how management skills, not simply military technology, won the wars and kept the territory intact. It is perhaps administrative organization, not cultural traits, that made the Tarascans an anomaly in Mesoamerica. That quality permeated and characterized the Tarascan cultural system, and it is seen clearly on the frontier where the Tarascans did not simply engage in battle but conducted administered warfare (Gorenstein 1985:1) ...


... Gorensteins work at Acmbaro, on the eastern frontier of the Tarascan empire (and, therefore, the western edge of the Aztec empire), provides one of the best summaries to date of how the Tarascan defense system was planned and administered (Gorenstein 1985). She notes that it appears the Tarascans were very selective about the conquests they made on the frontier, with an eye to holding and maintaining strategic points in the recognition that the Aztec were and would continue to be a formidable enemy, both militarily and politically (108). She surveyed four neighboring settlements along with Acmbaro, and discovered that they were strategically superior. All were on hills, which allowed them a wide field of vision and even permitted them to take surprise offensive action if the need arose. The sites were sufficiently near to one another to be able to coordinate strategy and tactics, through a system of bonfires and smoke signals, or by means of messengers and scouts. All the settlements of the frontier zone could have been informed of an event or directive within a week and possibly within days depending on the position of the frontier settlement disseminating and receiving the information (15) ...

... Among the Tarascans there were professional soldiers who were occupied full time with the military and were considered members of government The military as an arm of the government was employed to carry out the directives of the administration, which was to extend administration and thereby Basin political control into the territory.

In contrast, among the Aztecs,

military organization was essentially part of the social system and the develop-ment of the military as a professional specialization was subverted to the interests of maintaining the social elite. Military functions were carried out through the social system often with ineptitude and always inefficiently. The goal was not to extend administration, but to extend the economy (1983:130).


Snips from:

http://faculty.smu.edu/rkemper/anth_3311/anth_3311_adkins_ta rascan_paper.htm
Back to Top
Yum Kaax Pakal View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote Yum Kaax Pakal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 10:35

Somebody can explain me why the purepecha territory is called an EMPIRE?...i mean...what makes it an empire?

TONEYO, TOTAHUCA MEXICA!!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.