illegals

Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer who cares about you ? get a real life, probably you need a girlfriend or a little bit of Prozac , dude

Haha, GREAT comeback moderator, way to be the more "mature" individual.

ANyways, the one who brings Up a girlfriend, is the one who needs one.

Edited by strategos

Originally posted by Jalisco Lancer Plus, your avatar is a clear invitation to inflammatory discussions about Cyprus.

Would u care to elaborate on this mr.Lancer ??

Isk.

I think it was said that 9 hospitals in California last year had to close due to all the illegal immigrants coming in. They get free medical care and don't have to pay a dime. Another one might close in LA this year, they can't pay for all the aliens and there are changes they have to pay for, I forget what they were, but the hospitals are just losing money over there. This is a huge problem for Americans if you ask me, I didn't even they were coming in in that big of amounts to affect us like this.

Originally posted by Illuminati I think he means that his avatar is inflamatory since it shows the whole Island of Cyprus with a backgroun of Blue with a white stripe (colors of the Greek flag). Its clearly showing that all of Cyprus belongs to Greece. Obviously thats going to upset some Turks considering the Turkish inhabit Cyprus also, and the fact that Greece does not own the island. and back onto the illegal immigration issue. Regardless of economic conditions, its still against the law to allow all these ilelgals to cross and for the federal government not to enforce border laws. There are numerous petitions out on the internet. Foxnews has one that over 3 million americans have signed. Its a sad day in America when the citizens have to petition the Federal government to enforce its own laws.

Thanks, this is about illegal immigrants not the Turks. I would love to sign that petition. I sent Bush an email and commented on him not mentioning the illegal immigrant issue or other important issues for Americans like the Iraq war and the trade imbalance with China. It was like the whole event was staged and they were only allowed to ask certain questions. I heard it on Michael Savage a few days ago. I know my email has a snow flakes chance in Hades for Bush to read it but somebody will. I doubt if his policy will change because big business needs slaves.

If you are a U.S. citizen you can email your rep via www.congress.org

This thread says illegal immigrants so this is a global problem and other countries like England, Greece, Malaysia, and Japan also face the same problem. A couple of years ago I was reading there were around 200,000 illegals from China waiting in the Balkans to sneak into Western Europe. I originally put a thread on America's borders and that was meant for the U.S. issue of illegal immigrants.

Originally posted by Illuminati So, its been 30 days and the Minuteman project is taking its break. They had 876 volunteers show up. They are planning on expanding their projects to California, Texas, New Mexico...........and to prove they aren't racist, they are going to extend the project to America's Northern Border with Canada (thats gonna be one hell of a job lol). This proves that there is no racism involved, the biggest critizism that people make is that the Minutemen are vigilanties and they should not be doing this. yeah, well.... But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html Thats a little extreme, and this is definitely no reason to overthrow the government, but I think my point still stands. When the government fails to adequately serve and protect the people, those with the power to act have the responsibility to act. It seems like the Minutemen are doing just that. I think that quote alone validates what they are doing. They are doing what the founding fathers wanted Americans to do.

We are close to Canada and maybe I should find the time to link up with them. They proved not to be racist to me so I support them all the more. I am sure you have racists individuals in the group but overall they are not. You will find racism in any groups- La Raza(The race)- what does this mean???? the race!! I have to get back to the books otherwise I would comment more on this.

Outlaw posses???
 
Perhaps you didn't notice, but they ARE NOT violating any laws. Sitting on the border with binoculars and cell phones is not illegal.

Prove to me where the Minutemen are breaking the law and you may actually have a legitimite point.

They disagree with policy and are fully within their rights to stage a protest. They could petition congress, but that never gets anywhere fast. So, they did what any sensible group would do...........attract as much media attention as possible. The media is all over this story and thats just what the Minutemen wanted. There is nothing wrong with staging this form of protest.

The Minutemen are merely watching and reporting. They are doing the exact same thing that neighborhood watch groups do just on a much larger level. So, if you call the minutemen vigilantes then you would have to apply that term to neighborhood watch groups also.

Bush can disagree with them all he wants, but the fact remains that their actions are legal. If they weren't then the govt. would have shut them down.



Edited by Illuminati

"The minute vigilante posse have consistently ignored the Border Patrol directions to leave the area. "

Really?? Are you sure about that?? Show me a source where the Border Patrol officially told the Minutemen to pack up and leave.  The Border Patrol have no legal authority to stop US citizens from being in that area.

You stated that the Border Patrol dislikes the Minutemen

Thats not correct at all.

I refer you to this article. Where the Border Patrol union praises the Minutemen and blasts President Bush.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43859

This statement in the article comes directly from the Border Patrol unit in Tucson...

""We want to make it clear � because we've had a lot of questions about this � we have not had one single complaint from a rank-and-file agent in this sector about the Minutemen," says a statement on the site. "Every report we've received indicates these people are very supportive of the rank-and-file agents; they're courteous. Many of them are retired firefighters, cops, and other professionals, and they're not causing us any problems whatsoever."

Obviously they like the Minutemen.

And who cares if they are armed.....its not breaking any laws to be armed like that in Arizona. And it doesn't matter because the Mintuemen are NOT making the apprehensions themselves. The Border Patrol has been making all the arrests.

 So, now a citizen shouldn't be taken as seriously becasue they decide to exercise their legal right to carry a weapon...

and the difference between the minutemen and city protesters.........the minutemen are smart. They got more attention than any city protest in washington would get and they didn't even have to travel to washington.



Edited by Illuminati

Here is the Tucson spokesman for the border patrol saying objecting to the "protest."

They are getting in the way, he says, and they are advising to leave the area.

Are you happy now?

[quote]In the five days since Minuteman volunteers began arriving, the Border Patrol had apprehended far fewer immigrants than usual -- about 100 a day, down from the usual 300, said Andy Adame, a Tucson-based spokesman for the federal agency.

But Adame said he believed the decrease was linked to an operation by Mexican officials on the other side of the border. "We don't attribute that to the civilians patrolling the desert," he said. Minuteman organizers said they have directed their volunteers to call Border Patrol if they spot suspicious activity, rather than confronting the people themselves. Adame said he could not say how many calls they had received from Minutemen, if any; he said there had been no rise in the overall number of calls they receive from citizens.

Adame also reiterated the Border Patrol's objections to the program, noting that the volunteers were setting off sensors placed along the border and blurring the footprints agents often follow in search of illegal immigrants.

"They're tromping all over the place making our job a little more difficult," he said. "It's not a major crisis, but it is detrimental to our operations."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26339-2005Apr 4_2.html

First off....you have NOT shown that the border patrol has condemned the minutemen. you ahve only claimed they did.

Secondly....don't be so blind. Of course the Border patrol administration will say exactly the same thing as bush says......they are a federal agency. they can't go disagreeing with the president. The union is the BEST way to hear the opinion of the Border Patrol Agents. every other way is blocked with politics and beauracracy. my source proved that the Border patrol agents are thankful and praise the minutemen while at the same time blasting the president, you can ignore it all you want but my source proved that you were wrong on your statement of what the Border Patrol felt.

I didn't change the topic.....you called the minutemen vigiliantes. In order to be vigiliantes you hahe to be acting outside of the law. I showed that they were not outside the law and therefore are not vigilantes. So, unless you prove that the mintuemen are violating the law, then they cannot be the "outlaw posses" that you claim.

Once again....about the police. you have to PROVE that the border patrol objects to the minutemen. I proved that the agents DO NOT object to them. I provided a source.....why don't you try and do the same?

and about the quote.....I felt it was fine, you didn't. thats that. Its a mute argument that will only lead us into an area thats not at all relevant to this debate. It was an extreme example, I admit that. Perhaps I should nto have brought it up, but oh well. And I countered your claim that they were "outlaw posses" by showing that they were not working outside the law.

You still have yet to show that they are working outside the law. If you are going to make this claim, then show me what laws they are violating.

Why don't you back up your own claim?

 

And "real" americans. there is no such thing. Its all about opinion. I can find a person who is just as much an American as me, but believes the opposite of everything that I do. In my personal opinion.....the real americans were the founding fathers. And they didn't really act in accordance of the law of their country...

Edited by Illuminati

United Auto workers comprises auto workers from many companies....the border Patriol Union comprises people from ONLY the border patrol. your comparison doesn't work.

Your comparison between GM and the Border Patrol doesn't work. One group is controlled by the Executive branch, one isn't. One has to do what the President says. One does not. One can openly disagree with the President. One cannot.

you're claiming that I am ignoring your points.....but you still have not proven to me how the minutemen are "outlaw posses" you have ignored this for a while now. In order to be outlaws and vigilantes you have to be breaking the law............you still have yet to prove how they are breaking the law. 

Contempt for the rule of law..........your argument makes no sense. They are breaking NO laws therefore they are respecting the law. Since when do we look negatively at a group who protests legally against a government policy? There are so many random protests in washington and NYC that they get ignored and not much change comes about. We have that right and it should be exercised. No one has been harmed or hindered by their protest. Its as simple as that. They have acted very respectfully and courteously towards the border patrol and have not hindered them from doing their jobs.

My article represents the agents much better than any statement by the Border Patrol administration, because the Union can actually tell you the feelings of the agents who work the borders and are out there under strength every day. A political statement by the border patrol adminitstration cannot do that because they are not allowed to go against what Bush says. Your argument against my source is weak. you are placing a politically influenced statement above that of a non-politically influenced one. Would you expect the FBI or the CIA to officially denounce the President for one of his policies?? I wouldn't because they can't do that. I imagine that the border patrol administrators would like to keep their jobs.

The minutemen are following the wishes of the border patrol agents. As I stated in my post earlier, not one border patrol agent has filed a complaint against the minutemen? If the minutemen are such a hinderance and not working well with the agents then why has no one filed a complaint?? Asnwer me that.

Do real americans follow the rule of law???

once again......define "real" american. I don't think a definition can be made. Our founding fathers didn't follow the law. In fact they committed high treason against their government. Are they any less a "real" american than some lawyer who has never broken a law in his life? I don't think they are. Your question is flawed. But in terms of the minutemen, they are following the law. they are protesting like many groups in america do, but they are doing it legally. You claim that they have no respect for the President? If you look at america right now, you will find that the vast majority of protesting groups have no respect for Bush and his policies. Do you denounce all of them too? I don't care what the President says, if I disagree with him, then i will say so anyway i like as long as its in accordance with our laws.

I don't have a problem with the minutemen having guns. None have been used. If they were protesting in the middle of a city, and some of them had shotguns and handguns, then I would be against that... BUT, they are not in the middle of a city with those guns......they are in the desolate arizona desert. Big difference.  The minutemen have not harmed any illegal immigrants in any way. I am from Arizona.  If I was camping out in the middle of the desert all night long, then I would want a gun too. And while the illegal immigrants are peaceful people who want only to make money to support their families, the possibility of someone taking revenge on the minutemen who no doubt have made enemies with many mexicans is not unthinkable. 

Now, I believe I have answered all of your numbered questions. Now, please answer my question i stated above. How can they be "outlaw posses" when they are breaking no laws and hindering no ones ability to enforce the law?


Edited by Illuminati