Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedIsrael attack Gaza, December 2008
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 11>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Israel attack Gaza, December 2008
    Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 17:59
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

And you bring up politics. Yeah, that can be apart of this. But you are the guys making Israel out to be a barbaric country, so even if these elections weren't right around the corner, then their responce would be the same, right?

No, because if this particular election wasn't around the corner, Israel wouldn't have maneuvered Hamas into making the attacks in the first place. Hamas was played here, keep that in mind - the blockade was intended to create a situation where attacks would occur and provide a cassus belli for 'retaliation'.

You can't really just 'forget' the blockades, convenient as that might be, because this sort of story is the same every time. If it isn't blockades it's curfews, mass detentions, bulldozing of homes, destruction of crops, settlements, walls or whatever. The list of provocations that have been used to create these sorts of situations is endless.

And what has this action done for Hamas and the Palistinians that is pretty much exactly the same as the other times it has happened. Nothing but more pain, sorrow, and destruction. No different. Shouldn't the Palistinians be saying, hmmm, maybe Hamas isn't helping us at all? Maybe we should something different? They're playing the same play book and getting beaten down for it. I don't agree with Israel has done, what your pointing out on Israel's behavior has always been done, it's nothing new. The difference is it works for them. When Hamas keeps doing it, they are shooting themselves in the foot, how do you not see that?
 
To make this more simple on what I'm saying, Rockets should have NEVER been fired in the first place, because it's just a repeat of all the other times. And if common sense dictates it doesn't work countless times before, it's not going to work now. It's not sending a message, it's not hurting Israel as a state, otherwise it would've along time ago.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Court Jester

Joined: 01-Nov-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3638 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 20:26
After reading most of this posts, i could find all the same arguments i've heared during the last 35 years in the near-east-conflict.
 
No one is obviously interessted in stoping this conflict. There's like it is always not only one truth. There is not only one way to show power and weapons.
 
Camp David and all this other pseudo agreements didn't change the situation sustained.
 
Israel and it's neighbors claim to possess the only right answer. Another tank attack or another suicid bomber, another missile attack or another tortureing.
 
Another war with further victims. No sulution but bloodshed. Mankind didn't do a single step from the time where cludgels were the only argument.
 
 


Edited by ulrich von hutten - 31-Dec-2008 at 06:42

Back to Top
pikeshot1600 View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar


Joined: 22-Jan-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 20:48

Ulrich, you just summed up the political history of the world for the last 90 years.
Back to Top
ArmenianSurvival View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 22:10
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Your right, so Hamas should keep firing those pointless rockets in order to show Israel they aren't happy with them? If you know the reaction, because it happened many times before, how are you going to fault Israel as the sole bad guy? Sorry, I don't see your arguement holding water, when talking about the actions of Hamas. If it doesn't work, why keep doing it? Especially when the outcome just brings more death?
 
I don't nesessarily agree with their tactics, I'm not a commander, I'm just defending their right to resist. What is the alternative to fighting Israel? The only alternative is a fake peace where remaining Palestinian territories become walled off, controlled and subject to colonization by Europeans and North Americans. Theres a reason all the Zionist settlements are in the West Bank as opposed to the Gaza strip.
 
Its easy to assume that Hamas is just some out of touch, out of control group who gets a kick out of provoking Israel. Thats because our press doesn't report on the daily crimes and breaches of agreements by Israeli military rule (thats what Palestinians officially live under). We don't hear about people's kids being beaten in their own neighborhoods and houses by Israeli soldiers for looking at them funny. We don't know how bad it is when random Palestinians get kidnapped, rotting in Israeli dungeons for no reason other than they are Palestinian. We don't hear about entire families being slaughtered by Israeli search parties, who are just clearing the way for future European settlement. We don't hear about the fact that hundreds of legitimate Palestinian politicians have been kidnapped and assassinated by Mossad agents, essentially decapitating Palestinian leadership. The only time we hear about Palestine is when Palestinians get fed up and fight back, and thats not done by accident.
 
 
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

I never have, infact my old posts in other threads will show you I'm anti-Israel. I'm talking about this current event and how they keep doing an ACTION that always has the same REACTION. And how it's never done anything but hurt the Palestinians more.
 
I wasn't trying to say you were anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli--- I just grouped together everything I disagreed with into one bunch, so my comments for you probably overlapped into the rest of it.
 
 
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

Exactly! Which is why this group should just be condemned by their own people, because they are fighting in away that does nothing but cause more deaths through provoking. Israel may provoke more, but like you said, they don't exactly match up! And the way they handle the situation, that doesn't exactly work either.
 
I want to emphasize this--- what is the alternative? If Hamas puts down its rockets, renounces violence and puts Gaza at Israel's mercy, whats going to happen? The West Bank already did this, they have an Israeli-approved government, and what was the result? They have severe limits on their freedom of movement (Israeli checkpoints) and they have access to fewer and fewer of the land's resources because the government is too busy building settlements for European and North American adventurers and walling off Palestinians from local supplies and roads. Farmers have been walled off from the water supplies right next to their lands. Neighborhoods have been cut off from one another. This is done intentionally to make Palestinians leave. Its that simple.
 
Don't believe for a second that peace in Palestine depends on Hamas, history has shown the Zionists always have one excuse or another. At first they told the world they are preventing a "second Holocaust", then Arafat was a convenient scapegoat for a while, and now they are using Hamas. Zionists want the public to think that peace depends on Hamas, when its really about the native Palestinian people resisting foreign militants invading their country.
 
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

to win a war you need to pick your battles, i have sympathy to the Gazans but these guys need to go back to school and do what Hezbollah did. it takes time and focus,  and then fight properly if no peace had been won in the meantime.

its like deciding to throw spears agianst people with guns but never geting the chance to use guns  because your to busy getting smashed in the fight using spears.. stupid stuff.

I agree, Hezbollah would be a good blueprint for these guys to follow. I never said I agree with Hamas's tactics--- I'm just saying its their right to fight Israel, simply because the alternative will destroy what is left of their national existence. The West Bank is peaceful and even has an Israeli-approved leader in Abbas--- And look what happened to the West Bank in just a couple of years. At this rate, in less than 20 years, the entire population of the West Bank will be Israeli settlers and squatters.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

This isnt about palistinains being equal to isrealis, the reality is they're not. So you can say they should just sit there with arms folded not wanting to talk ( as equals) while they lose more and more, i diasgree. They have no other option but to talk and gain the moral high ground. You now why? because every other high ground is isreali occupied and there is nothing they or their so called arab 'freinds' can do about it.
 
I agree with them not being equal, my whole point is that theres a huge discrepancy between the two sides, and we should treat the situation as such. But what Palestinians are asking for is not equal by any means--- they just want a fraction of their country to live in. 1967 borders are not "fair" or "equal" for Palestinians, but Israel (with US/UK support) has rejected any reasonable two-state solution. The ones that were rejected by Palestinians were not simply "1967 borders", it was 1967 borders with many asterisks and conditions which basically rendered independent Palestine into a group of tiny, discontinuous principalities with Israeli military checkpoints between them all, and with no laws against Israeli settlers. Agreeing to that is national suicide, and Israel has made this the only alternative to violence.
 
This all goes back to the Zionist movement and its ideology, and the fact that the movement has never put any limits on its borders, and the fact that their entire protocol was to make Palestinians a powerless minority on their own lands, ever since the first days of the British Mandate.
 
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Hamas's only leverage is to act in the interests of it's Syrian and Iranian paymasters.  That is where their money comes from so they have no other choice.
 
All of us have encountered situations where bullies have been involved; so is Israel a bully?  So what if she is?  Some are stronger and have more chops than others do.  This is not a schoolyard, it is international politics.
 
If you spit in the bully's face, you cannot be surprised when you get your teeth kicked in.  Hamas does others' bidding because they would starve otherwise.  When Israel reacts, AE gets all upset, someone writes an editorial and the UN may pass another worthless resolution.  (Blue helmets between the sides?....Please.)
 
One would think that if you fire rockets into Israel, you would expect the reaction of a far stronger force.  So...firing rockets into Israel is virtuous?  good policy?  a reflection of military might?  No, one would think it is stupidity. 
 
I don't think the Hamas Palestinians are stupid, I think they are in despair, and their puppetmasters know they can make them dance and do the bleeding as well or they starve.  The Arabs and other interests have been using the Palestinians for their own purposes and cynically letting them take it on the chin for many decades.  It has always been, as it remains, a publicity game to them.
 
I agree with a lot of your points-- Hamas is desperate and they naturally carry out the work of entities who fund them who don't necessarily have the Palestinian people as a priority. But this doesn't mean everything they do is for their masters, or that their struggle is any less of a people's struggle, especially when most of the people support them, mainly because they have felt what Israeli "peace" is all about. I will be the first to say that the "Arab League" is a collection of pansy politicians who either work for western interests (Egypt, Jordan, Gulf states, etc) or are too scared to take the initiative (Syria). In fact, the only country with gall when it comes to the Palestinian struggle is a non-Arab state (Iran). Iran's relationship with Hezbollah and Hamas is glued together because of Israeli aggression. Its a very clear-cut and natural relationship. Palestinians asserting their rights in Palestine is just a natural result if Iran gains ground or is victorious in this proxy war. In the bigger picture, Hamas and Iran simply have overlapping national interests.
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
Back to Top
malizai_ View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Alcinous

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 01:50

Once again I am not surprised to see veiled remarks typical of Israeli apologists, despite the admission of the greatest proponents of this cancerous state.

“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
~David Ben-Gurion


'Two state solution' The land sharing ideas are easily conceived if it is not your land being drawn and quartered.I guess what ever percentage you can get of someone else's land is a bonus right!!
'Both sides are to blame'(again probably not your land,blood ) Of course if people get personally disinherited, they recover rather quickly the ability to see with clarity.

Long before the first Israeli pays for these crimes,I would like to see the likes of Hosni Mubarak and two bit kings with names like abdallah abdallah..dressed as fairies in their long robes..hang from the nearest tree for their betrayal. Just can not stand these hypocrites!!. As for the Arab armies they should find the nearest quick sand and drown themselves in it.
 
Israel is drunk and blinded with arrogance,and feels beyond reproach or retribution, but we all know what goes around comes around.
"Pride comes before disaster, and arrogance before a fall." (Prov 16:18 NEB)

It seems the only language the Israelis understand is that of violence. Violence it deserves to have reciprocated. The Israeli understand violence better than most , after all their genesis, existence and survival depends on it. Amazingly people don't stop trying to rationalize non violence to the Palestinians. It's like rationalizing non violence to the negro with a KKK noose being put round his neck.

Golda Meir hoped that with enough violence a more favorable conclusion could eventually be reached by the Palestinians, thus she noted "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us".

The likes of her have a problem though, for the will of the Palestinians has yet to be broken. The problem is they are not quite where she would have liked them to be; "We will not leave our land, we will not raise white flags and we will not kneel except before God,"~Ismail Haniya. 

Here is your answer Golda!  not now, not ever. 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Parnell View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 04-Apr-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 01:55
And you claim your anti-war. Don't dare and try to question the rest of our motives - its obvious you've never lived in a place anywere near Palestine. Your opinions are no more morally superior to any supposed 'Israeli apologists'.

Your morally superior self righteous crap is exactly what I'm talking about. Its better for all when people like you don't get a voice at any sort of peace negotiations because your short term brain is inundated with tales of hardship and oppression with no capacity for thinking of the future.
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 01:57
I don't nesessarily agree with their tactics, I'm not a commander, I'm just defending their right to resist. What is the alternative to fighting Israel? The only alternative is a fake peace where remaining Palestinian territories become walled off, controlled and subject to colonization by Europeans and North Americans. Theres a reason all the Zionist settlements are in the West Bank as opposed to the Gaza strip.
I'm not suggesting that they give up, I'm just saying that the current tactic they've been using only hurts them more. All it does is provoke, and they should know this by now. It's done nothing else.
 
Its easy to assume that Hamas is just some out of touch, out of control group who gets a kick out of provoking Israel. Thats because our press doesn't report on the daily crimes and breaches of agreements by Israeli military rule (thats what Palestinians officially live under).
Personally I believe both Hamas and Israel are very extreme. And I have said in the past I don't support Israel and wish the US would cut ties, but that's a dream.
We don't know how bad it is when random Palestinians get kidnapped, rotting in Israeli dungeons for no reason other than they are Palestinian. We don't hear about entire families being slaughtered by Israeli search parties, who are just clearing the way for future European settlement. We don't hear about the fact that hundreds of legitimate Palestinian politicians have been kidnapped and assassinated by Mossad agents, essentially decapitating Palestinian leadership. The only time we hear about Palestine is when Palestinians get fed up and fight back, and thats not done by accident.
Your right, infact I never heard of any of these crimes even suggested til now. But my view on Israel can't get worse, I don't like them, and my view on this current situation of Hamas hasn't changed, because it was a idiotic move that brought more problems onto themselves.
 
I want to emphasize this--- what is the alternative? If Hamas puts down its rockets, renounces violence and puts Gaza at Israel's mercy, whats going to happen?
I didn't say they should be peacful, I just said the way they are fighting does absolutly nothing for them. And I wouldn't even venture to suggest what they may do. I'd a prefer peaceful way no matter how unlikely it is.
They have severe limits on their freedom of movement (Israeli checkpoints) and they have access to fewer and fewer of the land's resources because the government is too busy building settlements for European and North American adventurers and walling off Palestinians from local supplies and roads. Farmers have been walled off from the water supplies right next to their lands. Neighborhoods have been cut off from one another. This is done intentionally to make Palestinians leave. Its that simple.
Your making it sound as bloodshed is the only way, as if no matter what government is in place, it will always lead to what you posted in this quote. I don't believe they have to be limited to bloodshed or being puppets.
Don't believe for a second that peace in Palestine depends on Hamas, history has shown the Zionists always have one excuse or another.
I don't, but it's a start. If they keep making those idiotic moves, there won't be a Palestine with the way Israel retaliates to these small rocket attacks. 
 
 
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
malizai_ View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Alcinous

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 02:36
Originally posted by Parnell

And you claim your anti-war. Don't dare and try to question the rest of our motives - its obvious you've never lived in a place anywere near Palestine. Your opinions are no more morally superior to any supposed 'Israeli apologists'.

Your morally superior self righteous crap is exactly what I'm talking about. Its better for all when people like you don't get a voice at any sort of peace negotiations because your short term brain is inundated with tales of hardship and oppression with no capacity for thinking of the future.
 
And Ireland is twinned with Jordan, great argumets BTW.
Back to Top
Parnell View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 04-Apr-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 02:57
Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Parnell

And you claim your anti-war. Don't dare and try to question the rest of our motives - its obvious you've never lived in a place anywere near Palestine. Your opinions are no more morally superior to any supposed 'Israeli apologists'.

Your morally superior self righteous crap is exactly what I'm talking about. Its better for all when people like you don't get a voice at any sort of peace negotiations because your short term brain is inundated with tales of hardship and oppression with no capacity for thinking of the future.
 
And Ireland is twinned with Jordan, great argumets BTW.


Ireland is twinned with Northern Ireland actually, and I know a thing or two about partition, repression and despair, even if I am a generation after.

Just keep the pontifications for your Marxist Revolutionary meetings. Most civilised people don't want to hear the self-righteous ramblings of someone who clearly doesn't understand what living in a warzone is like.
Back to Top
Kevin View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Editor

Joined: 27-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 767 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 03:15
Originally posted by Parnell

Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Parnell

And you claim your anti-war. Don't dare and try to question the rest of our motives - its obvious you've never lived in a place anywere near Palestine. Your opinions are no more morally superior to any supposed 'Israeli apologists'.

Your morally superior self righteous crap is exactly what I'm talking about. Its better for all when people like you don't get a voice at any sort of peace negotiations because your short term brain is inundated with tales of hardship and oppression with no capacity for thinking of the future.
 
And Ireland is twinned with Jordan, great argumets BTW.


Ireland is twinned with Northern Ireland actually, and I know a thing or two about partition, repression and despair, even if I am a generation after.

Just keep the pontifications for your Marxist Revolutionary meetings. Most civilised people don't want to hear the self-righteous ramblings of someone who clearly doesn't understand what living in a warzone is like.


What part of Ireland are you originally from Parnell?
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 04:33
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

 
Originally posted by Leonidas

to win a war you need to pick your battles, i have sympathy to the Gazans but these guys need to go back to school and do what Hezbollah did. it takes time and focus,  and then fight properly if no peace had been won in the meantime.

its like deciding to throw spears agianst people with guns but never geting the chance to use guns  because your to busy getting smashed in the fight using spears.. stupid stuff.

I agree, Hezbollah would be a good blueprint for these guys to follow. I never said I agree with Hamas's tactics--- I'm just saying its their right to fight Israel, simply because the alternative will destroy what is left of their national existence. The West Bank is peaceful and even has an Israeli-approved leader in Abbas--- And look what happened to the West Bank in just a couple of years. At this rate, in less than 20 years, the entire population of the West Bank will be Israeli settlers and squatters.
Im with you on the right to fight. But such actions must be measured. So far suicides in populated places have set them backwards in the eyes of the west a very long time. Isreal loses a fwew civlians but get to put uop walls, and wins a proganda victory in the western media thanks to all that footage. Rocket attacks which are much lamer continue to give isreal fodder for more of there sledge hammer attacks and the good o'l self defense excuse. This is desperate emotional resistance that Israel revels in. Stopping it is better for the Palestinian cause.

Send their men over to iran and learn to fight like soldeirs, then fight them on your own terms. islreal had a much harder time laying aglove on the Hezbi fighters and that includes on the media level as well.

Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

 
Originally posted by Leonidas

This isnt about palistinains being equal to isrealis, the reality is they're not. So you can say they should just sit there with arms folded not wanting to talk ( as equals) while they lose more and more, i diasgree. They have no other option but to talk and gain the moral high ground. You now why? because every other high ground is isreali occupied and there is nothing they or their so called arab 'freinds' can do about it.
 
I agree with them not being equal, my whole point is that theres a huge discrepancy between the two sides, and we should treat the situation as such. But what Palestinians are asking for is not equal by any means--- they just want a fraction of their country to live in. 1967 borders are not "fair" or "equal" for Palestinians, but Israel (with US/UK support) has rejected any reasonable two-state solution. The ones that were rejected by Palestinians were not simply "1967 borders", it was 1967 borders with many asterisks and conditions which basically rendered independent Palestine into a group of tiny, discontinuous principalities with Israeli military checkpoints between them all, and with no laws against Israeli settlers. Agreeing to that is national suicide, and Israel has made this the only alternative to violence.
Remember Hamas doesn't work with the 1967 borders. The ones from FATAH didn't see the big picture, they let the details of refugee return and Jerusalem stop the show. Israel know this and does it every time it needs to talk peace.  It is hard for Abbas or Arafat to say to their people, they didn't solve the Jerusalem question so the peace is yet again delayed and those wall (created with the excuse of those suicide bombers) pinchs a bit more land. They are getting played on the battle feild and at the table. Emotions have to be ignored, predictability needs to stop.
 


Edited by Leonidas - 31-Dec-2008 at 04:38
Back to Top
vulkan02 View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Termythinator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: U$A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 04:40
I read most of the comments made in this thread and the ones who are closest to the state of the real affairs there are probably Malizai's. Isreal has been abusing and humiliating the Palestinians in Gaza concentration camp for quite some time now with the full-support of the leader of the "free-world" America. The Palestinians have nothing left but to fight and die, when there is "peace" Isreal steals their land and destroys their homes and when there is war it does everything else. That's why we in the West and especially here in America hear nothing of it but only of the latest Zionist massacre caused by "Hamas rockets".
Here is a question for the Isreal apologists, if the same was done to you and your family wouldn't u want to hurt the aggressors in any way possible - even if it meant death?
or...
How is it  that a nation of 300 million foreing policiy is so thoroughly controlled by a tiny country of 6 million?

Despite of the tragedy being perpetuated these increasingly brutal attacks on the part of Israel are showing to the ones paying attention that the more the Zionists sense their own powerlessness the more they achieve pariah status in world affairs. This is seriously a public relations disaster for Israel and its leaders will soon realize that incessant terror and intimidation is not the way to conduct diplomacy in the 21'st century.
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 05:27
Hello Leo
 
I think in my post in the page before I proved that the "generous" offer of the Israeli was nothing but suger coated crap. Read the post and see the map and you will know why.
 
AL-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 31-Dec-2008 at 05:29
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 06:51
i know its not going to make everyone happy but there seems two choices, 1 talk and gain as much as possible, that is meet the Isreali bluff of peace or 2 don't talk and let the Israelis carve out what they want anyway. think about it they have the power no one else bar a nuked up Iran can equal them. Arafat did call Barack's bluff and came very close to shuting down further expansion by talking and the Isreali's pulled out right at the last moment not them.

the expansion, the status quo is what your want to stop now.

the situation in 2007, ok the reality of it, talk or not

from
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/vMaps!OpenView


a much earlier isreali wish, the allon plan which every one else is based off, they will get as much of this as they can  this without peace.


your map is not final and the palistinians didnt accept that to the full.

I found a third party note of what was discussed, agreed and not agreed to.

for instance

The Israeli side stated that it did not need to maintain settlements in the Jordan Valley for security purposes, and its proposed maps reflected this position.

The Israeli maps were principally based on a demographic concept of settlements blocs that would incorporate approximately 80 percent on the settlers. The Israeli side sketched a map presenting a 6 percent annexation, the outer limit of the Clinton proposal. The Palestinian illustrative map presented 3.1 percent in the context of a land swap.



www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/prrn/papers/moratinos.html






Edited by Leonidas - 31-Dec-2008 at 06:57
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 09:40

Hello Leo

Are really talking with your full and uncompromised senses? what kind of a f**ing state is Palestine going to be if it accepted the proposals above.

This is insane. The international community (UN security council) guaranteed in Madrid and Oslo as well as subsequent binding agreements that Israel should give everything to the 67 borders and not an inch less. The maps above contain lands Israel colonized after Oslo and after Camp David and after Annapolis. It also contains land that Israel haven't even colonised yet. It contains practically all the excellent farming lands the Palestinians still have as well as water and mineral resources.

 
What you are saying is that the Palestinians should not only give up half the west Bank including land colonized and grabbed AFTER Oslo, they should accept the fact that at any moment even with a finalized peace deal Israel will grab more land and kick more Palestinians. What kind of peace is this? What kind of a state that has shifting and ever shrinking borders?
 
The US/Israel are changing the rules of the game in the middle of the match, the rules that apply againt other people don't apply to them. They have the audacity to demand a full and uncompromisable application of UN rules on Lebanon but when it comes to deal struck by Israelis themselves, the game can change.
 
This is why Arafat refused the 2000 deal, this is why Abbas refused the newest deal.
 
AL-Jassas
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 09:53
Its amazing how many people do not understand the motives of the oppressed.
When you have no wealth, have no justice, have no freedom, have no guns, you have only two choices - surrender, or fight. Hamas fires the rockets to show themselves as much as anyone that they have not surrendered, and that they are not slaves on their own land. If they do not fight then they will be a people with no self-esteem and wretched in all ways. Identical to the Aboriginal who drowns his sorrows in Alcohol.

The peace talks are meaningless, Israel holds all the cards and works to its own agenda. They only exist to appease the western public & Israeli left. Israels conditions have always been the same, "be our slaves and let us do as we please, whether that be kill you children, steal your land or whatever, and we will give you the scraps from our table. If you do not then we will still kill you children, and steal your land, but we will not give you any scraps"

It is far better to die on your feet than live on your knees. While there is still an old grandmother in Palestine willing to throw a stone at a main battle tank Israel will never win. Every bomb that Israel drops will only dig its grave deeper.
Mark my words, Israels future is entirely in the hands of the Palestinians. If the Zionists do not give justice to the Palestinians then in the future the Israelis will have to beg for justice from the Palestinians.

Egypt, Jordan, Syria are all fat petty dictators. Too afraid to loose their material wealth. Their lives are tied to the fate of their puppet masters.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 31-Dec-2008 at 09:58
Back to Top
Parnell View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 04-Apr-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1409 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 14:05
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Its amazing how many people do not understand the motives of the oppressed.
When you have no wealth, have no justice, have no freedom, have no guns, you have only two choices - surrender, or fight. Hamas fires the rockets to show themselves as much as anyone that they have not surrendered, and that they are not slaves on their own land. If they do not fight then they will be a people with no self-esteem and wretched in all ways. Identical to the Aboriginal who drowns his sorrows in Alcohol.

The peace talks are meaningless, Israel holds all the cards and works to its own agenda. They only exist to appease the western public & Israeli left. Israels conditions have always been the same, "be our slaves and let us do as we please, whether that be kill you children, steal your land or whatever, and we will give you the scraps from our table. If you do not then we will still kill you children, and steal your land, but we will not give you any scraps"

It is far better to die on your feet than live on your knees. While there is still an old grandmother in Palestine willing to throw a stone at a main battle tank Israel will never win. Every bomb that Israel drops will only dig its grave deeper.
Mark my words, Israels future is entirely in the hands of the Palestinians. If the Zionists do not give justice to the Palestinians then in the future the Israelis will have to beg for justice from the Palestinians.

Egypt, Jordan, Syria are all fat petty dictators. Too afraid to loose their material wealth. Their lives are tied to the fate of their puppet masters.


What are we waiting for? Why not have the apocolypse now and get it over with?
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 14:58

Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

And what has this action done for Hamas and the Palistinians that is pretty much exactly the same as the other times it has happened. Nothing but more pain, sorrow, and destruction. No different.

True enough, but that happens no matter what they do.

Shouldn't the Palistinians be saying, hmmm, maybe Hamas isn't helping us at all? Maybe we should something different?

Well, its not like they don't lie down and take it every day. Once in a while, things give, and that's when we hear about it.

I don't agree with Israel has done, what your pointing out on Israel's behavior has always been done, it's nothing new. The difference is it works for them. When Hamas keeps doing it, they are shooting themselves in the foot, how do you not see that?

They just don't have the level of political control to actually stop rockets from being fired when the Israelis provoke the entire population. It's just going to happen, and that's that.

It's unfortunate, but they just don't have the leadership or unity necessary to stop that sort of thing from happening, just as Israel cannot control the settler movement even if they wanted to (Rabin was the last one to seriously give that a shot - and look what happened to him!)

We can't look to Israel or the Palestinians to solve the problem. This kind of stuff happens, like in the former Yugoslavia or Cyprus or East Timor ... and once it gets going, the people involved simply can't stop it. The real problem is that the world powers don't have the political will to go in there and stop it, which they should have done a long time ago. They should be forced to accept a settlement including a DMZ with observers and peacekeepers or face a complete loss of aid and trade, or perhaps even an outright armed intervention - the same way the Balkan states or Indonesia were forced to knuckle under and accept peace whether they liked it or not, because the world powers just stepped in and said, "enough."

As far as this "working" for Israel: it's not. It's working for Israel better than it is for the Palestinians, but that's not saying much. Just as the Palestinians never seem to learn that shooting rockets won't stop the Israelis, the Israelis never seem to realize that dropping bombs isn't stopping the Palestinians either.



Edited by edgewaters - 31-Dec-2008 at 15:19
Back to Top
vulkan02 View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Termythinator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: U$A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 15:48
It's not about "learning" not to shoot back when shooting back is the only dignified response you have left. Even if Hamas wasn't in charge then some other organization close to Hamas would replace it. The Palestinians have had enough death and humiliation to sit back and wait till Israel miraculously changes its mind ends its random killings, land grabs, torture prisons, etc etc etc. Many people there are at the point where they believe that violent death against the Zionists is only choice they have left to end the crushing oppression they experience day to day.

Check out some of the pictures from the attack and you decide who really is the aggressor there..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/dec/28/gaza-attacks-israel-palestine?picture=341149884
The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 16:57
True enough, but that happens no matter what they do.
Not at it's current scale. Palestinians could play the same game as Israel, let them come to them with force and show it to the world. You said they played into Israel's hands here, well, why? Every moment of this was predictable, there shouldn't have been any second guessing by what the reaction would have been, it's known.
 
Well, its not like they don't lie down and take it every day. Once in a while, things give, and that's when we hear about it.
And it's the same everytime we hear about it. Then we have a thread that discusses the entire history over and over again and how bad Israel is. Which maybe the truth, but it's always the provoking by Hamas that makes these thread and news stories, and it's the news that always benefits Israel.
 
Hamas attacking Israel always benefits Israel, and Leo pointed that above because they can play the defending their citizen's card while using excessive force on Palestinians. It does nothing for Palestine!
 
They just don't have the level of political control to actually stop rockets from being fired when the Israelis provoke the entire population. It's just going to happen, and that's that.
Then I guess we'll be having this discussion in another thread soon. Because my whole point is what you said there, History is going to keep repeating unless these idiotic attacks by Hamas stop. They do absolutly nothing for their cause, it's time for a new playbook no matter what that maybe. One that doesn't benefit Israel through world opinion and allows them to use their military in any way they wish.
 
We can't look to Israel or the Palestinians to solve the problem. This kind of stuff happens, like in the former Yugoslavia or Cyprus or East Timor ... and once it gets going, the people involved simply can't stop it. The real problem is that the world powers don't have the political will to go in there and stop it, which they should have done a long time ago.
The US was trying to broker many peace deals in the 80s to early 90s I believe. But I get the feeling that if the US is ever successful, people here will be just saying that the US turned the Palestinians into puppets. Perhaps more nations should get involved? It wasn't until the current Bush admin took office that they pretty completely stopped working on peace there.
They should be forced to accept a settlement including a DMZ with observers and peacekeepers or face a complete loss of aid and trade, or perhaps even an outright armed intervention - the same way the Balkan states or Indonesia were forced to knuckle under and accept peace whether they liked it or not, because the world powers just stepped in and said, "enough."
Anything is better then the current situation as long as it means peace between the two people. So I can't disagree.
 
As far as this "working" for Israel: it's not. It's working for Israel better than it is for the Palestinians, but that's not saying much. Just as the Palestinians never seem to learn that shooting rockets won't stop the Israelis, the Israelis never seem to realize that dropping bombs isn't stopping the Palestinians either.
I don't think Israel has unleashed the full might they hold. They are just going to the extreme edge of what they feel can justify their actions in the world's view. And by using such heavy measures will make Palestinians react more and allow Israel to push it's knife deeper. They know exactly what they are doing and they are making the rules of the game so long as those, like Hamas, react in the way they have.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 34567 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.063 seconds.