Stanford Uni. on Hellinic DNA

Originally posted by Phallanx Well, either 3000 or 3500 is not the issue, as I mentioned finds have proven that copper was used before Troy so the possibility of an influence/'import'  from it, seems  impossible.

You may be right about copper. Anyhow Troyan influence was important in the Aegean in those periods.

We know of various finds in Hellas and the Balcans that pre-date Troy, but the real proof of its use and that these finds aren't 'imports' are the several copper mines, with the most well known being that of Rudna Glava in Serbia, already in use by 4500 BC...

So soon? Does this imply that Chalcolithic was earlier in the Balcans than conventional pan-European dates (c. 3500)? Some hammered copper does not constitute Chalcolithic but copper mining and foundry do seem to belong rather to that age.

The female figurine may have been used all over the Balkans but as I recall we agreed just above that Sesklo both pre-dates and 'exported' its culture instead of 'importing' it so I think, it would be safe to say that this figurine, was also 'exported' towards the Balkans with their culture.

But I think that the "madonna" pre-dates Sesklo in Asia, more specifically in Syria (PPNB). In any case, in the unlikely event that it was a European import into Troy, it's more likely that it would came from Thrace than Thessaly, as that region was in the late 3rd milennium (Karanovo-Gumelnita) the political center of the Balcanic region and also probably the most advanced and rich one.

So let's not mix things one thing is that Sesklo was the focus of Balcanic Neolithic, exporting largely its culture and iconography, including the madonna, and another thing is what happened 2500 years later when Troy appeared in scene. At that time there was no Sesklo culture and the impulse of Dimini (direct precursor of Rakhmani) had also faded. Other regions, as the aforementioned Bulgarian one were the regional leaders then. Greece (not anymore Thessaly but now southern Greece) would only recover its cultural centrality with Minoan and Mycenean cultures, much later. We have the approximate following sequence:

1. C. 6000 BCE, Thessaly (Sesklo) is the cultural kernel of Balcanic Neolithic and maybe also of the Mediterranean one (proto-Sesklo).
2. C. 5000 BCE, Thessaly (Dimini) seems to be at the center of another cultural current of much more limited expansion but also affecting most of the Balcans.
3. C. 3500 BCE, Thrace (Karanovo-Gumelnita) is clearly at the center of Balcanic and Carpathian cultures, stabilishing probably the first kingdom of Europe. It does not expand its culture like in the previous cases but its role can't be ignored. Troy also appears then and is clearly connected with Gumelnita culture.
4. C. 2800 BCE, after Gumelnita has been destroyed, Cycladean seems to be the regional leading culture somehow. Troy is still there.
   
5. C. 2000 BCE, Minoan Crete replaces Cycladean culture as local hegemonic culture. Troy is still there, in the background. Hittites appear in Anatolia.
   
6. C. 1600 BCE, Mycenean Greeks replace Minoan hegemony and take over Crete. Hittite empire is close to its apogee. Troy probably falls in the Hittite sphere.
   
7. C. 1200 BCE, Mycenean Greeks and other nations, called collectively the Sea Peoples, start a huge Viking-like expansive process by sea. Hittite empire is destroyed and the secret of Iron passes to Greeks and their allies. Troy is also destroyed soon after and the Dorians invade large parts of southern Greece.
   
8. C. 1000 BCE, Phoenicians benefit from the Greek "dark ages" and become the main naval power of the Mediterranean, stabilishing colonies as far as Spain and Morocco.
   
9. C. 700 BCE, Greek renaissance: classical Greece (and Persian Empire).
   
10. C. 350 BCE, Macedonian Empire: Hellenism
11. C. 100 BCE, Roman Empire: the cultural center moves again now to Italy.
    
12. C. 350 CE, Constantinople founded the cultural center returns to Greece.

etc.

What I mean is that while Greece has indeed played a pivotal role as cultural and sometimes also political center this is not continuous and has passed through different periods, some of them when the cultural and political center was largely in other regions. You just can't pretend that every single thing was originally Greek or that Greece is the only possible "center of the world", whatever its importance in diferent periods.