Muslim Theology and the Word.

Islam denies Trinity because parenthood of God to any living or non-living being is inconceivable in bodily terms and degrading to the concept of God.

Again God is not a physical parent. Jesus is not 1/2 God 1/2 Mary genetically so there is no problem there.

His spiritual parenthood to any soul or spirit is also inconceivable if it means other than being the Creator of that soul or spirit.

Jesus spirit is the same spirit as God's spirit, this is what makes Jesus God in Christian eyes.

Otherwise, the other being will be independent from God, and he will be His partner.

See I think we've finally hit on one of the most difficult themes to reconcile. In Christian theology it is impossible to think of a creature that is independent from God because ultimately we rely on God to provide us with life. Well the life we require for our souls to survive, otherwise we are no better than the clay that Adam was made from.

In the same way this is why Christian theology has no problems with the Triune Godhead. Because even though each persons of the Trinity are independent they are all co-equal and co-existing with one another. It's like three people seeing David Beckham, one sees a Soccer player, one sees a British person and one sees a Husband. They are all the same person but based on the different roles he can be seen in a different light. Thus even though God is the Creator, the Word and the Spirit he is in the end of the day just God.

If the word is used in its figurative sense, to mean that God is as compassionate to His living creature as a father, then He will not only be the father of one person but the father of all mankind.

Well if Jesus is considered fully man then he would be part of mankind thus as God created the human body that was to become Jesus the Messiah then his physical body would be his Son but his spirit is the Word (which is synonymous with the second person of the Trinity).

But even this figurative usage of the word is repugnant to Islam because it is misleading and confusing to the people. Muslims, therefore, do not use it.

That is a good reason to just cut out the "middle man" and to simplify the concept of God for the layman (I hope that didn't come off as offensive). It is more important to recognize the Unity in God then to delve into the complexity that is God.

But this does not make either of us a god, and so is the case with Jesus.

Yes but we have independent souls, I surmise that Jesus was not born with a human soul and that God's own essence (or soul) became Jesus spirit.

and how was Mary, the mother of the God and she is human,and how God put himself in her,and limited himself .

God chose to limit himself because if man had original sin (which Muslims don't believe in) then it had to be taken away by a sinless man, but no man was capable because all men fall into the temptation of sin. However God could resist all sin because there is no sin with God thus he limited himself and became man so that he could take our sins and not fall into sin himself. Even though by becoming man he took a risk, since even Jesus himself nearly fell into temptation in the desert because he had not yet realized that he was God.

And it is not like Mary was just any woman. According to Catholic belief, Mary was the most perfect human ever created. She was the only human conceived with purity of body and soul (Immaculate Conception), and we are taught that she was sinless thanks to the actions of God. I know an apparent contradiction but consider that she had God's spirit dwelling inside her perhaps some of this divinity was transfered to her (but not in the sense that she shares equal status with God because she did indeed have her own individual spirit unlike Jesus).

I hope no offence in my post Janus.

No I quite enjoy our dialogue Ahmed.

Also a note on the Word which is causing a bit of confusion I think.

The Word is the Second Person of the Trinity, also commonly referred to as the Son. Now Jesus the Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity, this means that he is the Word. Now what is the Word (Logos) of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and came from God, to give an analogy the Logos would be similar to your own inner monologue. It is your conscience, the little voice inside your head, it is undoubtedly your own being, but it is not a part of your physical body. This is how the Second Person of the Trinity (the Word, the Son, the Logos) is to the First Person of the Trinity (the Father, God, the Creator). This voice was given physical form in the man known as Jesus by God's will so that mankind would be freed from original sin. This voice then left the physical world to allow God's spirit to directly enter the world. Hopefully that clears some concepts of the Christian theology up for you.

Originally posted by Ahmed The Fighter   There is no such knowledge, information that says Jesus will return in Quran.    Dear Scorpious,our information is not only from Quran,it is from Sunnah(the saying and the actions of the prophet Muhammed),there are many hadiths(Saying) assure the second coming of Jesus.

But when you use the Bible as a source of Islamic theology you should treat it in the same manner as you treat Hadiths. As in, scrutinise its sources*, and compare with the Quran.


*As in, of each book/letter/chapter of bible


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 24-Jan-2008 at 00:51

I think you will find those time frames are similes. The use of the word 'like' in translation is a dead give away.
Your not supposed to use them in a quanitiative way.

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim I think you will find those time frames are similes. The use of the word 'like' in translation is a dead give away. Your not supposed to use them in a quanitiative way.

I agree, I think that the concept of time that we have, even the more modern one dealing with billions of years is too miniscule to understand God's place in time and space. Infinity is something that we cannot fully grasp.

Originally posted by JanusRook God chose to limit himself because if man had original sin (which Muslims don't believe in) then it had to be taken away by a sinless man, but no man was capable because all men fall into the temptation of sin. However God could resist all sin because there is no sin with God thus he limited himself and became man so that he could take our sins and not fall into sin himself. Even though by becoming man he took a risk, since even Jesus himself nearly fell into temptation in the desert because he had not yet realized that he was God.

In the Islamic faith God is God; the same God that Adam worshiped, and so on... There is no variance between God, the books that were revealed are God's message to humanity, and the Qu'ran is the culmination of that prophetic tradition.

Now as for God being militarastic that is untrue, God allows for a believer to protect himself if he is attacked; however, all forms of agressive violence are forbiden and are sin (i.e. Attacking for no reason, as is continuing to fight once the attacker whom you were defending yourself from sues for peace. Basically all forms of violence unless you are protecting your own life are a sin and are forbiden)

Another thing is that the Qu'ran was revealed over a period of two decades. The Battle of Badr is mentioned in the Qu'ran and verses calling for an attack in defence of God's community, or Ummah should not lead you to believe that the Qu'ran endorses violence or that they are to be taken out of context. They apply for that battle as there are two sides to a battle and not fighting would mean that the pagans would extinguish God's community.

In Surah 9 Ayat 4 we find a good example of God being peaceful, and also commanding his followers to follow a peaceful life rather than the stereotypical "smithe them down."
"But the treatires are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom you have entered into alliance and who have you subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God Loves the righteous."

Ayat 6: "If one among the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him so that he may hear the Word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure."


Furthermore, peaceful coexistence is stressed upon. For example; Surah 2 Ayat 256 :
There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
Thus a believe cannot either force nor instill injustice to an unbeliever, nor is a Muslim automatically saved, nor are other believers in God and righteous individuals discluded from union with God.

Surah 16 Ayat 82: "But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you)." In this verse we have God telling the Prophet that it is not the business of him or the believer to instill Islam or kill, but for the message to be delivered upon mankind. Who chooses to accept or not is not of the concern of the Prophet even, but of the individual who chooses his own path either toward or away from God.

Surah 11 Ayat 28: "(Noah to his people) He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If 1 act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?"

Surah 17, Aya 53-4:"And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith."

Here is so much for God advocating defeat of unbelievers... and answers your question about Satan the fallen Angel, (Iblis in Arabic).

Nor does the Qu'ran advocate some sort of forced assimilation:

Surah 22 Ayat 67: "To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites (of prayer) which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord (since that is the main objective of religion). You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, (then say,) `God best knows (the value of) what you do."

Surah 88 Ayat 21: "And so, (O Prophet!) exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe."

The Qu'ran clearly states that it is is perfectly fine to live and cohabitat with people who do not follow the same faith.
Surah 60 Ayat 8: "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."

As far as the Hadith, or sayings ascribed to the prophet:
"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)
"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)
"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)
"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

Hope that helps.

Originally posted by JanusRook The same way that a child cannot speak nor walk when they are first born. No human body can fully contain God, so to fully reveal to Jesus that he was God all at once would be like opening the floodgates, it would have destroyed him. Thus slowly he would come to realize the fact he was God so that his mind could be filled with the knowledge without it overwhelming his inferior mortal shell.

Hm. I think we could all do with a good lesson in basic Chalcedonian Christology...