Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel

 

Of course Israel is going to cause some civilian casualties to its enemies during this conflict.  This is a war, it happens.  The terrorists that are attacking Israel are constantly targeting civilians (the terrorists are cowards in this way).  Why are you juding Israel for some accidental civilian deaths when the terrorists are specifically targeting civlians?  Israel must do what it must in order to survive and defeat Hezbollah and other terrorist groups. 

 

The only things that matter are the injustices of today, not of the past.

 

You are wrong Mila.  The Arabs brought these problems on themselves.  Remember, it was they who started all of the wars that Israel has been involved in since its existence.  You should also remember that the Arabs lost of the wars as well (even with enourmous advantages and greater numbers).  Since Israel won, Israel has a right to keep all of the territory that it took inorder to insure its future survival.  No territory should be given up.  The Palestinians in refugee camps should move on and perhaps live within some of the Arab countries that caused the wars in the first place. 

 

And as if by magic those jews of antiquities become the jews of today, returning to inhabit the land they booked 2700 yrs ago with a paltry downpayment, in palestine.

 

BTW, where r the jews of isfahan today and how did they end up there.

Originally posted by DukeC I'm not claiming the damage is on the same scale, but that there's two forces engaged in combat not one as some people are trying to say. It was Hezbollahs' choice to make it almost impossible to distinguish between their forces and civilians in Lebanon and they also decided to initiate hostilities.

 I agree that this is a two sided blame job, in degrees. i treat both equally, which i dont read in some of these posts. You called them terrorist  for blindly firing lots of inaccurate and largely ineffective rockets but cant see that the much more deadly bombing and shelling of isreal is exactly the same thing. as far as im concerned when you label one side as terrorist you make a value judgment loaded with bias.

i'll answer this "choice" fallacy below.

Originally posted by DukeC Israel is making the widespread strikes it is because of the dispersed structure of it's enemy. All the damage makes for great photo ops, which is also part of Hezbollahs strategy.

so? thats a what a geurrilla force does. they dont have the armour or firepower advantage, but gain it in other ways. C'mon, what would you do if you had a rpg and a rifle facing down the IDF?

Isreal has accurate bombs but either doesnt have the means to use them properly or simply doesnt care for the civilains that do get killed. Isreal must accept responsibility for its own actions.

It is completely false to belive (or portray) that isreal has no choice in being at war or how it conducts its war. That some how, due to the nature of this conflict and becuase of hezbollah tactics, victims just get caught in the crossfire. Wrong. Isreal chooses to use deadly rules of engagement that kills civilians, it chooses to use war to gain an advantage. Just as much as hezbollah chooses to fire the rockets.

its a choice that even our aussie pilots would not make in iraq.
"Australia's F/A-18 pilots defied the orders of American commanders and refused to drop their bombs on up to 40 missions during the invasion of Iraq, it can now be revealed"link

ok now look at read how the isreali's are conducting the war

"The Israeli military's chief of staff, Dan Halutz, a lieutenant general, was quoted as saying that for every building hit in Haifa by a Hezbollah rocket, Israel would hit 10 high-rise buildings in the Shi'ite residential neighborhoods of Southern Beirut. And Israeli air force pilots indicated that the process of vetting potential targets to minimize the chance of hitting civilians is less meticulous in the current bombings in Lebanon than it was in previous bombing campaigns."

and

"Last week, a colonel, who is an Israeli air force squadron commander gave an unusual interview to Ha'aretz, authorized by the military, in which he laid out some of the bombing policies. Often, he said, one of the militants firing rockets is seen seeking refuge in a residential home in South Lebanon. Such a house, he said, "ought to be struck, even if a family lives in it." Such a family, he said, has allowed combatants into its home, and "hence joined those who are fighting us." The lives of Israeli civilians are more important to him than the lives of Lebanese civilians, the squadron commander said on condition of anonymity, a routine practice for Israeli military officers.

Asked about the air strikes that leveled the pro-Hezbollah Shi'ite neighborhood of al-Dahiya in southern Beirut, the senior officer said that the area was a legitimate target because it was inhabited by Hezbollah personnel and their families." link

how do you conduct a war? Well here is some tips from retired miiltary men on behalf of the international Red Cross.
 
"If you are planning an attack you must:
� do all that is feasible at the time to verify that the target is in fact a military objective. If in doubt, do not attack. Remember the principle of distinction.
� carefully consider the tactics, weapons systems and ammunition you are going to use. Take all feasible precautions to avoid or at least minimize death or injury to civilians or civilian property. (pg 9)

Refrain from deciding to launch an attack which is expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination of the three, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage you anticipate. Remember the principle of proportionality. PDF pg 10

Originally posted by DukeC Stop trying to put all the blame on Israel.

i dont blame isreal, i understood that it needed to do something 'strong' at the start of this, i accept their right to defend. When i realised that israel is going about its operations the wrong way i admited i was wrong about this whole thing and assuming they knew what they were doing.  Morally they should stop now and think about giving hezbollah no reason to exist rather than to kill it off with anyone else that just happens to be nearby.

 

1. The first aircraft hijacking was carried out by Israel in 1954 against a Syrian civilian airliner.
 
2. Grenades in cafes: first used by Zionists against Palestinians in Jerusalem on 17 March 1937.
 
3. Delayed-action, electrically timed mines in crowded marketplaces: first used by Zionists against Palestinians in Haifa on 6 July 1938.
 
4. Blowing up a ship with its civilian passengers still on board: first carried out by Zionists in Haifa on 25 November 1940. The Zionists did not hesitate to blow up their own people in protest at the British policy of restricting Jewish immigration to Palestine. The ship, Patria, was carrying 1,700 Jewish immigrants.
 
5. Assassination of government officials: first carried out by the Zionists against the British in Cairo, when on 6 November 1944 Lord Moyne was assassinated by the Stern Gang. Yitzhak Shamir, a member of the Irgun and later leader of the Stern Gang and Israeli prime minister, was behind the plan.
 
6. Use of hostages as a means of putting pressure on a government: first used by the Zionists against the British in Tel Aviv on 18 June 1946.
 
7. Blowing up of government offices with their civilian employees and visitors: first carried out by the Zionists against the British in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946. The toll was 91 Britons killed and 46 wounded in the King David Hotel. Menachim Begin, who masterminded and carried out the attack and later became Israeli prime minister, admitted that the massacre was coordinated with and carried out under the instruction of the Haganah Zionist gang.
 
8. Booby-trapped suitcases: first used by the Zionists against the British Embassy in Rome on 13 October 1946.
 
9. Booby-trapped cars in civilian areas: first used by the Zionists against the British in Sarafand (east of Jaffa) on 5 December 1946.
 
10. Beating of hostages: first used by the Zionists against the British in Tel Aviv, Netanya and Rishon on 29 December 1946.
 
11. Letter bombs sent to politicians: first used by the Zionists against Britain when 20 letter bombs were sent from Italy to London between 4 and 6 June 1947.
 
12. Murder of hostages as a reprisal for government actions: first used by the Zionists against the British in the Netanya area on 29 July 1947.
 
13. Postal parcel bombs: first used by the Zionists against the British in London on 3 September 1947.
 
14. The massacre of Qibya, northwest of Jerusalem, was carried out by Unit 101, under the command of Ariel Sharon on Wednesday 14 October 1953. The attack was the bloodiest and most brutal Zionist crimes since the infamous Deir Yassin massacre. Forty-two houses as well as a school and a mosque were dynamited over their inhabitants. Seventy-five women, men and children were killed.

 

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