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Sultan
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Topic: Mongol enemies Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 00:35 |
Temujin Got His Name When His Father Killed The Tatari Leader in a Battle So The Mongolian Tribe Were Fighting Eachother And Most Of Times Fights The Turks Tribes Like The Tatars , When Temujin Grown Up He Realised That The Real Enemy Are The Chinese Because They Were Always Betray The Mongolian And Turks Tribes And Helps Them Against Each Other So They Can Stay Safe Behind Thier Walls , Thats Why He Invaded Them After He Untied The Mongolians And The Turks Tribes And Defeated The Chinese In Thier Own Ground.
To Answer For The Question , i Think The Japanese.
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Seko
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Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 11:12 |
Mongol enemies: Burmese
As is the usual Mongol method, envoys were sent to targeted countries before an invasion. In this case, Kublai Khan sent his messengers to Burma in 1273 though tribute would be refused. The Burmese King Narathihpate insulted the Khan especially when the envoys were ridiculed at the Burmese court. They were charged with not removing their shoes quick enough and were beheaded. Since this was a year prior to the invasion of Japan, the Mongols did not pursue a Burmese campaign until 1277. That year a Burmese raiding party had entered Yuan territory.
Nasir al-Din was instructed to lead an expedition against the Burmese capitol. The King assembled a massive army to stop the Mongols. It consisted of 800 or 2000 war elphants (depending on the source). With 12-16 fighting men for each. The rest of the army consisted of 50,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry. Nasir al-Din had 12,000 experienced troops at his disposal.
The Burmese attacked (battle of Vochan) and the Mongol horses appeared frightened at the appearance of the elephants. So they were instructed to dismount and tie their horses to trees. There the Mongols fired their bows while on the ground. They fired not at the riders but at the beasts. It worked. The elephants felt the sting and in utter chaos went about in confused disorder. At which time the Mongol warriors mounted their ponies and charged the Burmese. The battle lasted for hours. Too many lives were lost. The Mongols had won the day. They capture 200 elephants which were later turned over to Kublai for his private stock.
In 1283 the desperate Burmese King reentered China illegally and was repulsed by Kublai's grandson Temur in 1287. The Kings capitol of Pagan was sacked.
I don't know if this was the first time that the Mongols actually faced elephants as an adversary. Maybe someone could answer this?
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Seko
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Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 15:35 |
Mongol enemies: Khwarezmians
From the Aral sea to the Persian Gulf the lands of Iran and Afghanistan belonged to Muhammad Shah. A cosmopolitan empire consisted of many ethnic nationalites - Persians, Arabs, Turks, Afghans, with the Shah and most of his soldiers being of Turkic stock. His lands were immense as were his armies. It was believed that he could field over 200,000 soldiers.
Ghengis (Cengiz) Khan was interested in a peacefull and fruitfull existence alongside the Shah. So he set out to woo him with freindly overtures. Caravans of the finest Mongolian trophies were brought to the Khwaresmian. Ghengis sent out his own Khwaresmian envoys to present the gifts and foster mutual commerce. The ambassadors also told the Shah that the Great Khan wished for only peace between the two empires and that he would look at the lord of the west as a son. In diplomatic terms 'son' meant vassal and this infuriated the Shah. Noticing a possible rift between the two, Ghengis sent out another caravan more luxurious than the first. However, none of the precioius goods reached their destination. The caravan was halted at Otrar and the goods were confiscated. All the envoys and aides were executed.
When Ghengis heard of the news tears ran down his face. Yet he sent a Khwaresmina and two Mongol officials to look into the matter. They requested the extradition of the governer who commited the atrocity. In pure zealous ignorance of the Mongol Yassa and manerisms best fit for an upstart quarrelling Shah that he was, Muhammad put the Khwarezmian to death and had the Mongols head shaved. Furious again, Ghengis retreated to his favorite mountain for meditation, prayers to Tanri for guidance. He came down with plans for war.
In 1219 the Mongol forces concentrated at the foothills of the historical Altai range. Compatriots from all across the Mongol domains arrived. After a summer of preparations they set foot towards the west and embarked on their 1000 mile journey.
-to be continued.
Edited by Seko
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poirot
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Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 16:34 |
Originally posted by Sultan
Temujin Got His Name When His Father Killed The Tatari Leader in a Battle So The Mongolian Tribe Were Fighting Eachother And Most Of Times Fights The Turks Tribes Like The Tatars , When Temujin Grown Up He Realised That The Real Enemy Are The Chinese Because They Were Always Betray The Mongolian And Turks Tribes And Helps Them Against Each Other So They Can Stay Safe Behind Thier Walls , Thats Why He Invaded Them After He Untied The Mongolians And The Turks Tribes And Defeated The Chinese In Thier Own Ground.
To Answer For The Question , i Think The Japanese.
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Hi Sultan:
Oh boy, with a due sense of exhaustion, I must plead that you read history before furthering your political agenda.
Ever heard of Jurchens and Tanguts? Temujin, aka Chingghis Khan or Genghis Khan, never engaged in official full scale war with a Chinese ruled empire during his lifetime. His two primary rivals in China were the Jin and the Hsia. The Jin was ruled by Jurchens, the forerunners of the Manchus, and the Hsia was ruled by Tanguts, who were related to Tibetans.
I can understand why Ugyhurs were sympathetic to Mongols (because of Kuchulu and KaraKhitan), but Turks in general were also major casualties of the Mongol invasions. The early Mongols slaughtered Muslims (i.e. Baghdad) while making alliances with Christian states such as Armenia. Only in the later days of Mongol conquest, starting from Berke Khan, did some Mongol authorities adopt Islam as the official religion. All in all, I would say that the Muslims in formerly Turkic controlled areas suffered the greatest from the Mongol invasions, followed by East Asians and then by Europeans.
And what has the Japanese to do with all this?
A word of advice: please take your extremist views elsewhere, because every one of your posts I have seen contains some sort of dogmatic, ultranationalist propaganda or hate. That is not welcome in a forum where the members are trying their hardest not to express hate and violence.
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Seko
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Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 17:09 |
He chose the Japanese as the most difficult Mongol opponent.
Regarding the Mongols, that is his genralized summation.
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poirot
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Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 17:19 |
Seko:
Thanks for your highly objective and helpful summarization of the Mongol enemies. Your input is the best.
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Seko
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Posted: 30-Aug-2005 at 17:24 |
Thanks Poirot!
As you see I'm only half way finished with it. I'll follow it up with a short yet concise effort on Mongol skills, tactics, etc. It will be in this thread as my conclusion with references.
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tadamson
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Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 04:44 |
Originally posted by Seko
Mongol enemies: Burmese
As is the usual Mongol method, envoys were sent to targeted
countries before an invasion. In this case, Kublai Khan sent his
messengers to Burma in 1273 though tribute would be refused. The
Burmese King Narathihpate insulted the Khan especially when the envoys
were ridiculed at the Burmese court. They were charged with not
removing their shoes quick enough and were beheaded. Since this was a
year prior to the invasion of Japan, the Mongols did not pursue a
Burmese campaign until 1277. That year a Burmese raiding party had
entered Yuan territory.
Nasir al-Din was instructed to lead an expedition against the
Burmese capitol. The King assembled a massive army to stop the Mongols.
It consisted of 800 or 2000 war elphants (depending on the source).
With 12-16 fighting men for each. The rest of the army consisted of
50,000 infantry and 10,000 cavalry. Nasir al-Din had 12,000 experienced
troops at his disposal.
The Burmese attacked (battle of Vochan) and the Mongol horses
appeared frightened at the appearance of the elephants. So they were
instructed to dismount and tie their horses to trees. There the
Mongols fired their bows while on the ground. They fired not at the
riders but at the beasts. It worked. The elephants felt the sting and
in utter chaos went about in confused disorder. At which time the
Mongol warriors mounted their ponies and charged the Burmese. The
battle lasted for hours. Too many lives were lost. The Mongols had
won the day. They capture 200 elephants which were later turned
over to Kublai for his private stock.
In 1283 the desperate Burmese King reentered China illegally
and was repulsed by Kublai's grandson Temur in 1287. The Kings capitol
of Pagan was sacked.
I don't know if this was the first time that the Mongols actually
faced elephants as an adversary. Maybe someone could answer this? |
Khwarizami, Ghurid (destroyed and mostly incorporated into Khwaizam
1220) and Indian armies used Elephants, though there are no
records of any being used against the Mongols or their
allies. After the raids into Burma (Polo has the dates and some
names wrong, Burmese sources suggest several hard fought battles then
the Mongols withdrew) the Yuan took 200 elephants a year as
tribute but they never used them in battle. There had prevously
been Mongol raids into India where they had faced Elephants in battle.
Edited by tadamson
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rgds.
Tom..
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Seko
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Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 07:15 |
Thanks for the info.
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 13:55 |
The only barricades for Mongols were castles made of stone and seas.
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 14:01 |
In Europe Mongols couldn't occupie fortresses. They pressed people near castles to fight against Mongols enemies.
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 14:08 |
For example Mongols pressed Cumans to fight against other Cumans. An other example: in the Carpathians Mongols pressed thousands of Russians to cut forests and opened Hungarian border.
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 14:53 |
From Hungary I can tell other exemples about this crul Mongol habit, pressing civils to fight.
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Nagyfejedelem
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Posted: 31-Aug-2005 at 15:36 |
I've become a general!
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Raider
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Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 03:01 |
The mongols used chinese siege engines when they attacked China. I think they lacked the siege engines in Hungary, because their attack was rather preparation than a real invasion.
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tadamson
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Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 13:23 |
Originally posted by Raider
The mongols used chinese siege engines when they attacked
China. I think they lacked the siege engines in Hungary, because their
attack was rather preparation than a real invasion. |
All Mongol units included artillery. The campaign in Eurpoe was
folllowing standard practice. First use mobility and threats to
towns to force a battle with the enemies field forces. Once these
are destroyed the armies split u and go against cities and
fortresses. These are given the choice "surrender and join the
Empire" or "fight and be totally destroyed". As it was Ogodai
died, and the troops were withdrawn to guard the Eastern parts of
Batu's lands.
Edited by tadamson
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rgds.
Tom..
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Seko
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Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 14:20 |
Mongol enemies: Khwaresmians - part two
The Mongols main arm of strength lay with its cavalry. For the Khwarezmian campaign they were supported by Chinese engineers. The mastermind for this campaign was Ghengis Khan and Subotei, his close advisor and general.
In 1219 Mongol horseman seized food and cattle on the vicinity of the Jaxartes river. They scorched the land and withdrew behind a smokescreen at first sight of Khwarezmian reaction. This was a ploy, for the main body of Mongols were further down the river. Muhammed wanted to protect his towns of Samarcand and Bukhara, so he deployed forces there and kept more for his defense along the river. The Mongols avoided a fight with the troops along the river. Instead, they had two tumens under Jebei were to attack the towns directly. To get there they had to traverse the Pamir mountains.
In 1220 Jebei's forces took Muhammed by surprise at the town of Samarcand. At the news he sent reinforcements to help the city. As he did so he was shocked to learn that another Mongol force under Juchi and his 100,000 had crossed the scorched earth from before and advanced to the Jaxartes. The Khwarezmians were too strung out to make a strong defense along so many fronts. Town after town and fort after fort fell to the invaders. So Muhammed called for reinforcements from other parts of his empire. It was to no avail. For another huge Mongol force had participated in the invasion.
Further west of the Jaxartes and away from Samarcand, Otrar was being invested by Ghengis Khan himself. The fort held out for brief periods. Yet it was doomed to fall. Inalchik was at its defense. He was the Khwarezmian, whose inhuman treatment of the Mongol enoys, gave reason for the invasion. As this was going on, Ghengis and his troops crossed the Kyzyl Kum desert to attack Bukhara. A tremendous feat of agility.
As he laid seige to Bukhara, Ghengis left one of the city gates ungaurded. This ruse was enticement enough for the defending Khwarezmian troops to leave their stronghold and escape for freedom. It didn't matter for the Mongols hunted them down like steppe game. The town surrendered and was treated to a Mongol sacking.
Ghengis left the doomed town and headed for Samarcand to meet up with the rest of his troops and generals. The Mongols drove fresh droves of prisoners and soldiers at the city. Much of the civilian population was spared. Artisans were sent back to Mongolia. The defending sldiers were all killed.
The fall of Samarcand decided the outcome of the Khwarezmian war. The empireless Shah fled to the Caspian to die in 1221. His son Jelal al Din would lead a Khwarezmian Afghan contingent to fight for the remainder of their lands and for their lives.
Side note - The Khwarezmian campaign was very well thought out. By directing many points of attack the confused Shah was no mach for the genious of Ghengis. The Khwarezmians constantly fought a poorly organized defensive war. Never were they in control of the actions that governed the field. Even though both sides had similar fighting styles and steppe lineage; the preparations, planning and cunning tactics by the Mongols brought them a tremendous edge.
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honeybee
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Posted: 01-Sep-2005 at 18:35 |
"Oh boy, with a due sense of exhaustion, I must plead that you read history before furthering your political agenda.
Ever heard of Jurchens and Tanguts? Temujin, aka Chingghis Khan or Genghis Khan, never engaged in official full scale war with a Chinese ruled empire during his lifetime. His two primary rivals in China were the Jin and the Hsia. The Jin was ruled by Jurchens, the forerunners of the Manchus, and the Hsia was ruled by Tanguts, who were related to Tibetans."
The Jin empire is a Chinese empire ruled by the Jurchens. Temujin called the ruler of Jin the emperor of China.
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dick
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Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 11:00 |
In my opinion, the elite Jin cavalry was just as efficient as the Mongol cavalry. Their equipment, organization and tactics are roughly the same. Both are based on the semi decimal division organized into 5 groups that repeatedly fire arrows while charge in turn. All these require high level of discipline. The major difference is that Mongol cavalry stress on light mobile horse archery. While Jin focus more on heavy shockers. Martin have pointed out that in all the major battles, the Jin were outnumbered by the Mongols in cavalry. For example, Huanerzui's comparison was probably 60,000 Jin cavalry vs. 110,000 Mongol cavalry. The rest of the Jin forces were all conscripted infantry or allies. In the battle of three peaked hill, it was 20,000 Mongol cavalry vs. roughly equal amount of Jin cavalry and 80,000 infantry. The Mongol thus withdrew and ambushed the Jin. Yet in Da Yuan Chang, only 400 Jin cavalry(the infantry did very little, they only played a defensive role) defeated 8,000 Mongol cavalry. The rest of the minor battles were mainly Mongol cavalry vs. infantry based armies.
From these examination, we can conclude that Jin cavalry is in no way inferior to their Mongol counterparts, it was due to inferior numbers, as well as superior commanders on the Mongol side that gave the Mongols the victory. The Jin at this date was already infantry based because the Jurchen elite had very little number, they only had 20,000 men when they conquered northern China.
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Kenaney
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Posted: 02-Sep-2005 at 11:08 |
I think that the biggest enemys of Mongols where themselfs. Also that goes for the Turks too
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