Phenotype of original IE speakers

Again, from where have you gotten that we have slanted eyes? I've never seen that.

I can only see he has no eyelashs.

but seriously do you think all germans looks like this? your claims are very adventurous.  

I almost forgot the pre IE�s of my own country-people of the Vincha culture-it is almost certain they weren�t IE,since their culture dated over 6000BC.Their civilisation was spread all over Balkans.

Well actually it wasn't exactly 'their' culture, since they were strongly influenced if not direct decendants of the older Sesklo culture, actually Vinca was just one of the first 'outposts' while spreading North into Europe..


Edited by Phallanx

Originally posted by Socrates What  about your people (Basques),Etruscans(or not??),ancient Brits etc.They were pre IE�s,and none were blonde,tall.with light coloured eyes(anthropological evidence).All were mostly mesocephalic.Such were the ancient inhabitans Germany(again anthr. evid.).I almost forgot the pre IE�s of my own country-people of the Vincha culture-it is almost certain they weren�t IE,since their culture dated over 6000BC.Their civilisation was spread all over Balkans.Their culture was highly advanced at the time(u can do some googling on Vinca-or Vincha).U can conclude from the existing anthropological and archeol. evidence that pre IE�s were not of yours description. Unless somebody destroyed all the evidences(X-files are back again!!). Are u really Basque?

Don't know what you're talking about now and it seems you misunderstood me. I never said that blondisms were IE (I think it was you who said that actually), I said that the partial Mongoloid eyelid found in northern, central and eastern European populations could maybe be from that origin.

There are Basque blondes but they are not that common, btw. Typically Basques are dark haired, at least adults, and fair haired ones are not too blonde. Another thing is in the British islands (yet Welsh are less blnd than English, for instance). Anyhow, I wasn't discussing blondisms but Mongoloid eyelid in association with IE migrations.

And yes, I'm Basque.

Phallanx, we know that all came from Greece (or through Greece), at least in the Neolithic. But let me point that Vinca is associated to Dimini, not directly to Sesklo. The correlate of Sesklo in Serbia, Hungary and Transilvania is Starcevo-Koros-Cris.

Well Dimini is the continuation of Sesklo, as for Starcevo-Korosm, while many connect it to Sesklo, I haven't yet found C-14 tests to agree on a specific date. They actually vary from 6200- 4700 with most results pointing to the 5th mill. So, dispite the problems in may bring up in various theories.. untill that is definitely cleared, I think you'd agree that there is no reason for us to use it in cognation to Sesklo

All I'm saying is that those slanted eyes might be of non IE (pre IE) source in Europe.By the way, I don't notice those slanted eyes.

Maju

Actually Sesklo wasn't destroyed untill approx. 4400BC and Dimini was founded in 5200BC so beyond the obvious connection in pottery styles, fortification, 'buildings...etc that make an 'invasion' unacceptable since there is no new culture 'imported' but we see only a evolved form of Sesklo.
It has been proven that Sesklo was destroyed by an earthquake and not by raiding invaders, while Dimini continued to grow and prosper. If invaders had destroyed Sesklo, there is no possibility Dimini would avoid the same fate being only a couple of km away.

Those are the dates I know of as presented by K.Kotsakis, D. Theocharis, E.Blowedow,  V. Milojcic and P. Halstead, which have all done and published their research on the Neolithic of Thessaly..

If you recall the pic of a figurine I posted as an example when refering to the 'Askoi', it is named 'the Thinker' and depicts a male. that is actually considered the 'ancestor' of the later 'thinker' during Early Neolithic.
see pic:


or the "kourotrophos" of Sesklo:



Burial customs don't seem to have such a great difference from one 'culture' to the next. We actually have finds of three different types of burial in most Neolithic settlements.

1. Primary internment of the dead in simple pits, usually in a foetal or crouched position. Finds of a rock in the mouth is also common (remember the myth of Charon)
2. Cremation of the dead, partial (Early Neolithic) or complete (Late Neolithic), accompanied by vases, or placed in vases, the finds in the Hellinic area are of the oldest in Europe.
3. Collecting the bones of the dead individual and burying these beneath  the house or in a specific part of a cave..

Well Dimini is actually some 10 km from Sesklo, but without knowing alot about earthquakes, I do think that the 'quake' having a larger effect on one area (destruction)  than the next, is very possible.

Anyway, if you look into an analytic map that depicts the area, you'd see that getting to Dimini without comming into contact with Sesklo is impossible. Unless we'll believe that the 'invaders' came, passed right next to the 'culture' they were to later destroy, settle, come into close contact in order to adopt elements from their culture and then destroy them.. I don't see that real possible..

Not really sure what you mean by "hierarchical organization". If you are refering to the society, I really haven't seen any certain reconstruction, obviously due to lack of finds, other that burial, pottery..etc which obviously aren't enough.

Let's see, we've agreed that both Sesklo and Dimini are the areas where these cultures originated, that they 'exported' their culture instead of 'importing' it, yet we continue to mention invaders.

My whole point from our very first discussion on this or a similar topics is that, the difference in these two cultures seem to be based on a logical evolution and not due to some invisible invaders.

I could accept such a notion if we saw these cultures being originally formed in Bulgaria or Serbia for example, and then descending towards Hellas..
But now, I find it simply unacceptable to insist on invaders from Anatolia or anywhere else, passing through lands without comming in contact with the existing population and traveling some thousands of miles, only to re-settle in Thessaly or Peloponnesos. Where they'd form a new culture and then 'export' it towards the lands they already had passed through without previously leaving a trace.

So the next logical explanation is they must have came by sea.
But do we know of any of the Anatolian or Middle Eastern Neolithic cultures having the ability of such a journey by sea ?
I personally know only of Neolithic finds in Frachthi (Argos), Gioura (Skopelos), Koufovouno (Lakonia)..etc of undoubtable proof of shipping as far back as the 8th mill.
So could the 'differences' seen be something totally unrelated to your theory of invasion or my theory of evolution and be simply an adoption by commerce?

Interesting pic..

Here are two clearer pics of the reconstructions that I think are better for a comparison..

Sesklo






Dimini




There are no "Sesklian villages" but only one site in Sesklo, unless you include Dimini which isn't connected to this theory since it never was abandoned but we actually have proof of the continuous occupation untill the Bronze age or if you're including other sites of the same 'time sphere' as Dimini, like those in Larissa, Makrygialos or Sitagroi but then the problem is the lack of any evidence that could be connected to an invasion..

I fail to understand your persistance in favor of an invasion since the archeologists (mentioned above) that preformed the digs, have rejected the possibility of an invasion and you accept the obvious cultural continuity. What are the arguments in favor of the invasion. The male figurines, the fortification, pottery styles, burial customs all pre-existed, so why reject the obvious possibility of evolution..

I for one, see a major difference both in the figurines and in the pottery of Canhasan since we see an absence in spiraliform and meandroid patterns distinctive of the Hellinic Neolithic. A search will also give a difference in burial customs and a total lack in fortification. Besides, wasn't Canhassan 'founded' after the date given for Dimini.. I think so.

Here are some pics of artifacts displayed in the Ankara museum found at the site in question. (I'm also posting Dimini artifacts for an easier comparison)

Canhassan House figurine





Dimini house figurine




Anthropomorphic figurine from Canhasan





Anthropomorphic figurine from Dimini : (as seen above)




and




I think this is a face


  From  Canhasan



 a better one:




Dimini (characteristic 'seed eyes')




Pottery Canhasan







Dimini pottery :








I also find that again the distance is a major problem, we see the alleged invaders leaving Konya, which is in Central Anatolia and without comming in contact with anyone, finally settle in Thessaly..

And why would any invader not bring some kind of cultural influence to the invaded area, but instead adopt the existing culture he allegedly destroyed. Lets assume that they did invade, even though dates don't agree with the theory, why abandon the already 'conquered' lands but instead settle somewhere else.. ??