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warhead
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Topic: Alexander the Great Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 10:34 |
I'm not playing with any word, I said from the begining, the tactic of his army was not continued during Rome's time and thats a fact.
"However, the lesson is recorded in history and Alexander's tactics and innovations (always being aggressive, seizing the opportunity, mobility vs. numbers, importance of siege train, state of the art logistics service etc) were examined and employed throughout history. Even the defeat of the later armies was an important lesson because it has shown how correct Alexander was when he employed a combination of arms."
I still want examples on what field deployment is based on his tactic, so far you haven't gave me any, all you've said is that people like Napoleon and Frederick examined his military. But they also examined many others, and none of them could be said to have greatly affected future military thoughts. Been aggressive and seizing opportunity is something that all good generals do with instinct, not learned. Mobility verse numbers has always been the tactic of central asia way before Alexander, and the later European learned more of that from steppe people like turks than Alexander. I have not seen anything regarding siege train from later European armies been associated with Alexander, in fact the medieval trebuchet's design is very different in nature with the torsion type that the ancient Greeks used. As for combination of arms, similarly, I have not seen solid record that later armies actually adopted from him rather than figuring it out themselves.
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Lannes
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 15:54 |
Originally posted by warhead
I'm not playing with any word, I said from the begining, the tactic of his army was not continued during Rome's time and thats a fact. |
Stick to something. Here's the post I responded to:
That was not my point, obviously, it shows that his tactic did not pass on and outlive him, thus it has little affect on military strategy of the future. |
So, to answer your question, you saying his tactic didn't outlive him is what was incorrect.
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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warhead
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Posted: 07-Oct-2004 at 19:33 |
Stop mitpicking my post, its very clear that since the begining, my point was that his influence did not as Yiannis claimed, "revolutionized" future military thoughts. And no, I'm not incorrect, even Pyuruss's tactic did not resemble those of Alexander.
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Evildoer
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 09:30 |
But he had elephants and a significant cavalry force. He would have neither if it wasn't for Alexandrian-Philipian innovations. Thus Yiannis' point stands.
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 09:56 |
Yiannis' point is that Alexander revolutionized future military warfare, which obviously doesn't stand consider the age of Macedonian warfare lasted little more than a centruy.
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Evildoer
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 10:19 |
Was the long-lanced pikemen of 16th century Europe an adoptation of Macedonian tactics? Or was it just a coinicidence that this tactic was newly invented?
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warhead
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 11:39 |
There is already a discussion in the swiss infantry forum. The pikemen were more to do with their own innovation than adoptation of the Macedonian phalanx, since their initial weapon was halberd, and they discovered its effectiveness first, then applied pike.
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Temujin
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Posted: 08-Oct-2004 at 14:59 |
lance tactics of the renaissance differed from the use of the pike Phalanx.
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Miller
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Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 23:26 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
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Not sue if he was just at the right place at the right time encountering a weak emperor or he had some special military talent. Regardless, Hitler proved much more in this area, after all he defeated multiple countries and Alexander only defeated one (in multiple battles). Hitler is not considered to be anyone special why should Alexander be.
Originally posted by Yiannis
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He unified almost the entire known world (ok, from a "western" point of view. Up till then Greeks knew (in detail) only as far as Persepolis and perhaps a bit further to the edge of India. Greek maps after Alexander show as far as Indochina and the mapping of the Persian golf coast opened trade routes between Egypt and India.
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Come on, this is a history forum I think we all know better. This statement would be good for one of these move fan sites for people living in their fantasies. All the area he captured was already part of the Persian/Iranian empire. I fact his empire was smaller in area than the original Persian empire even if you include the small part of the Greece he added.
Originally posted by Yiannis
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Greek art, literature and architecture created a common culture as far as India and affected local cultures (e.g. Ghandara art). Moreover, Greek engineers and scientists improved greatly agricultural methods. Egypt, prior to the Ptolemies was not even able to feed it's own population. The new methods rendered Egypt as the breadbasket of Europe (much to Rome's benefit in the end)
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Cultural an d scientific exchange does not require conquest, and you make it sound like Greeks were ahead of the world at that time. Not sure if that is true
Originally posted by Yiannis
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Nice spin. You mean he was a good pirate. Even if what you say is true that was not planned by him. He was after stealing someone else's gold not stimulating the economy
Originally posted by Yiannis
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Not trying to say the Christianity is a good thing or bad, but the religion of people he defeated (Zoroastrianism), had a lot ( and I mean a lot) in common with Christianity and his religion had nothing to do with Christianity. Where that commonality comes from is source of another discussion, but if you think Christianity is a good thing you should go thank the ancient Persians for that
Originally posted by Yiannis
I'm sure there're many more, but these are the ones I can think of right now...
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I can.....
Edited by Miller
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Yiannis
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Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 08:43 |
Originally posted by Miller
Not sue if he was just at the right place at the right time encountering a weak emperor or he had some special military talent. Regardless, Hitler proved much more in this area, after all he defeated multiple countries and Alexander only defeated one (in multiple battles). Hitler is not considered to be anyone special why should Alexander be. |
Actually Hitler's generals are praised for his early victories and in the end Hitler LOST the war, remember? Moreover Hitler did not lead the Nazi armies. However even if I find your comparison a bit unappropriate I have to say that if Hitler had won the war we would probably today praize him as a genius and we would have been taght that in school.
Originally posted by Miller
. All the area he captured was already part of the Persian/Iranian empire. |
So what? He conquered every part by winning different battles. Following your logic, if one would conquer the Roman empire that would be nothing special since he would have conquered nothing but "one country"!
Originally posted by Miller
Cultural an d scientific exchange does not require conquest, and you make it sound like Greeks were ahead of the world at that time. Not sure if that is true |
True for the first part, but you have to admit that conquest and unification of Greek and Middle Eastern world accelerated this exchange. Secong part, I think that yes, Greeks were ahead of the rest of the world at the time (but I might be a bit biased on that )
Originally posted by Miller
Nice spin. You mean he was a good pirate. Even if what you say is true that was not planned by him. He was after stealing someone else's gold not stimulating the economy |
No, I mean that instead of keeping the gold idle in the treasury, he minted it and put it to circulation. Greek bank (type of) institutions were established in the East and commerce boomed as a consequece of his actions. So it's not more what you do with the riches that you loot. He put useless gold into good use.
Originally posted by Miller
Not trying to say the Christianity is a good thing or bad, but the religion of people he defeated (Zoroastrianism), had a lot ( and I mean a lot) in common with Christianity and his religion had nothing to do with Christianity. Where that commonality comes from is source of another discussion, but if you think Christianity is a good thing you should go thank the ancient Persians for that |
I personally think that Christianity (and religion in general) is an insult on the face of humanity but that's not our topic here. Yes, Christianity was greatly influenced by Judaism, Zoroastrians as well as other local religions of parts of the Roman empire.
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Genghis
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Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 18:28 |
I can't help but find it ironic Yiannis that you appear to be supportive of Alexander, yet you seem politically left of center, something I wouldn't expect from someone of that belief.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 02-Nov-2004 at 03:47 |
I don't think that you can put Alexander and his actions in the frame of modern-day politics. I judge them based on the conditions of his era. (moreover, since I'm also Greek I must admit that I'm -probably- a bit biased towards Alexander )
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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YusakuJon3
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 06:00 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
I don't think that you can put
Alexander and his actions in the frame of modern-day politics. I judge
them based on the conditions of his era. |
I second
that. In fact, it was the way of empires to overrun vast tracts
of land and subdue any tribes or kingdoms which resisted. This
goes back to the likes of Sargon in Mesopotamia, and it certainly
happened on a smaller scale amidst the prehistoric tribes which
would've been wrangling over hunting grounds or territorial
domain. It's in the human condition.
What sets us apart from the likes of Alexander's Macedon and
Darius's Persia is the new level of consciousness about human rights
and reasons not to wage war...they didn't know any better.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 06:29 |
Originally posted by YusakuJon3
What sets us apart from the likes of Alexander's Macedon and Darius's Persia is the new level of consciousness about human rights and reasons not to wage war...they didn't know any better.
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Aaaa, interesting point. But these two were essentialy different in the sense that the first, although not a Democracy, had the sence of civil liberties that are valued even today while the second one was an absolute monarchy where the Great King was "the Alpha and the Omega" and owed everything in his domain even the lives of his subjects. (please don't bring the example of Cleitus to dispute me, I'll give him the excuse that Alexander was drunk and that he later has shown great remorse :-)
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Lannes
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Posted: 04-Nov-2004 at 20:42 |
Originally posted by YusakuJon3
What sets us apart from the likes of Alexander's Macedon and Darius's Persia is the new level of consciousness about human rights and reasons not to wage war...they didn't know any better.
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It's not that they didn't know any better, it was just that war was their way.
Ancients didn't seem to take the same humanist view that so many people in modern times like to take, though that is not to say they didn't realize in full what disasters war could cause.
Edited by Lannes
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τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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Miller
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 00:39 |
Originally posted by Yiannis
I personally think that Christianity (and religion in general) is an insult on the face of humanity but that's not our topic here. Yes, Christianity was greatly influenced by Judaism, Zoroastrians as well as other local religions of parts of the Roman empire.
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You have picked an interesting name for someone who thinks Christianity is an insult on the face humanity Yiannis
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Yiannis
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Posted: 06-Nov-2004 at 07:07 |
It was actually picked for me by my parents, when I was too young to pick for myself...
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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YusakuJon3
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Posted: 07-Nov-2004 at 07:33 |
As I've nearly finished Robin Lane Fox's Alexander the Great,
I get the impression that much of the conqueror's "history" was written
by his Successors and various pamphleteers who either had reason to
glorify the man or demean him and rivals from within his circle of
friends. For instance, the accusations of poisoning by Antipater
or his sons, and how, in the Wars of the Successors, Ptolemy pulled a
fast one and hoarded Alexander's corpse. I'm beginning to think,
realistically, that Alexander's reign would've been short enough as it
is because of all the internecine conflict into which he was born and
how he had no less than two purges during his reign (first, rivals to
the throne, then Parmenio and his sons). If not from betrayal by
his companions, Alexander's empire would've collapsed from a rebellion
by the Greek and Macedonian countrymen who were brought up on
Arostotle's credo of Greek supremacy, much of which he was going
against with his forced emmigration and intermarriages of Greek and
Iranian on the Persian frontier. With the added possibility of a
harsh Arabian and African campaign and the king's belief in his own
press releases ("I am God -- ahem..."), and there would be a rebellion
at some point.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 03:35 |
Although I cannot disagree with most of the issues that you point out, I can disagree with the last one. Greek culture had the element that men who performed extraordinary deeds (must) be more than men. The concept of demi-Gog (Theseus, Jason, Hercules) was devised for that purpose. So Alexander, the conquer of the greatest empire on earth must have been "more than human". Orators in Athens and elsewhere were already fostering this idea (paid by Alexander? maybe but the idea was there).
So it was not just Alexander's megalomania but also a political tool that could unite the Greek world in the whole Medditeranean basin.
That was the sperm that created Roman deification of Emperors...
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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YusakuJon3
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Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 20:35 |
What you said is also a kernel of later claims by European kings and
queens of their own divine right to rule. Which sometimes
translated as whatever they wanted, what they told you not to do in
whatever religion be damned. Perhaps it was an echo of
intellectual skepticism over this that I was reading, but I'm aware
that not all of the Hellenes (as Greeks of that era called themselves)
saw a benefit to Macedonian rule under Alexander and his father
Philip. The one passage that describes his cross-dressing at a
wild party could well have been an exaggerated satire of one of many
religius festivals that were attended in those days, no doubt done in
the spirit of his Athenian nemesis, Demosthenes.
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"There you go again!"
-- President Ronald W. Reagan (directed towards reporters at a White House press conference, mid-1980s)
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