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younan or greece?
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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: younan or greece?
    Posted: 03-Oct-2008 at 20:34
Originally posted by Suren

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It may be of topic: Erzurum is a perfect combination of Arz((erz) Earth is Arabic) + Rum= Land of Romans. I think the name of city is not old enough to come from the Assyrian language.
I didn't say that the name of this city also comes from Assyrian, I meant it is possible that the second part of it (urum) relates to "Urumia", anyway "Arzurum" is certainly not an Arabic, firstly because in Arabic "Arz" never means "Earth" but "Rice", and secondly if even it meant "Rice of Rome" then it should be "Arzalrum" (Arz al-Rum) in Arabic.

You mean Arz with sad zad mean rice ?
That is Dhad ضاد not Zad زاد. 
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2008 at 13:55
Thank you Beylereyi! :)


My pleasure.

Btw, name of Erzurum has nothing to do with ancient Assyrian. Turks call Anatolia Rum because Rum=Roman. Also 'Yunanistan' is a corect word because Turks speak Turkish not some ancient form of Farsi nor any modern form of Farsi, nor any language remotely related to any form of Farsi or other Indo-European language. Turks speak a Turkic language which has loanwords from Farsi, which become Turkish words once borrowed, and change their meaning and pronounciation accordingly, which doesn't make them 'wrong'. Not that I expect Cyrus to understand this distinction, but I write it anyway.


Edited by Beylerbeyi - 04-Oct-2008 at 13:56
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2008 at 15:29
Not any that I know, but I guess not. Ask Mortaza, he has family, IIRC. Christians are called 'Pontus Rumu', 'Rum of Pontus'.
 
My family calls christian greeks in anatolia as rums and They believe there is not muslim rum:) So there is not any name for muslim greeks.(At least, that is what I know.)
 
 Infact, I think It would be also difficult to find a lot guys who call themself as muslim greeks.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2008 at 16:52
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Thank you Beylereyi! :)


My pleasure.

Btw, name of Erzurum has nothing to do with ancient Assyrian. Turks call Anatolia Rum because Rum=Roman. Also 'Yunanistan' is a corect word because Turks speak Turkish not some ancient form of Farsi nor any modern form of Farsi, nor any language remotely related to any form of Farsi or other Indo-European language. Turks speak a Turkic language which has loanwords from Farsi, which become Turkish words once borrowed, and change their meaning and pronounciation accordingly, which doesn't make them 'wrong'. Not that I expect Cyrus to understand this distinction, but I write it anyway.
Why do you call Persian "Farsi"?  and why do you say Turks speak Turkish not Türkçe?
 
Iranians call England "Engelistan", If you think "Englandistan" or "Engelistanland" are correct words then I will say "Yunanistan" is not a wrong word.
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2008 at 21:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

and Arz-Urum (Erzurum) in the eastern part of modern Turkey, comes probably from this Assyrian word.
 
In John Julius Norwich's Byzantium: The Apogee, there is an explanation of the origin of the name Erzerum on page 341:

Two years later, however, his unruly half-brother Ibrahim Inal took advantage of the temporary removal of Byzantine troops at the time of Leo Tornices's revolt and overran the city of Ardzen. The Armenian historian Matthew of Edessa speaks of 150,000 massacred, and goes on to describe 'the sons taken into slavery, the infants smashed without mercy against the rocks, the venerable old men abased in public squares, the gentle-born virgins dishonoured and carried off'; Matthew doubtless exaggerates, but the Seljuk sack of a wealthy city cannot have been a pleasant sight (1).
 
[footnote on the same page] (1) The survivors are said to have escaped to the neighboring city of Theodosiopolis, which they renamed after their old home, Ardzen er-Rum (Ardzen of the Romans) -- a name which over the centuries was corrupted into the modern Erzerum.
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2008 at 10:38
Originally posted by Mortaza

Not any that I know, but I guess not. Ask Mortaza, he has family, IIRC. Christians are called 'Pontus Rumu', 'Rum of Pontus'.
 
My family calls christian greeks in anatolia as rums and They believe there is not muslim rum:) So there is not any name for muslim greeks.(At least, that is what I know.)
 
Infact, I think It would be also difficult to find a lot guys who call themself as muslim greeks.
 


Come on, it is like saying there are no Christian Turks. None of the cases are common but it is inevitable to occur. It is just the past views that still affect us and we find it hard to believe in such equations.

Such people exist, but it was not easy for them to "advertize" it really. Besides, people in Greece don't start speaking about religion when they meet. Today, it is easier for such people to express their different religious views.

Have a look here: http://greekmuslim.wordpress.com/

In Thrace, aside from Turks, you will find many muslim Greeks. You will also, find Pomaks, which are an own group of people (probably Thracian natives) that sometimes use that term, even though they are not ethnically Greeks. If you ask me, those can be more Greek in heart than some other, ethnic Greeks, that i refer to as greculi.

Also, i remember when the first muslim deputies were introduced some years ago. Some people were skeptical, but now nobody seems to bother. Only extreme religious fanatics, which are not many.



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Posts: 1494 		  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 12:22
Well, in the Ottoman times the Greek speaking muslims called themselves Muslims and in modern Turkey they generally call themselves as Turks because, as Mortaza said, the name Rum is identified as Christian Orthodox. However some of them say "I'm from Greek origin".
 
As for Erzurum, I also read that after the Seljuk conquest of Erzen, the new Erzen built by the Romans was called as Erzen-i Rum (Erzen of Romans).
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 15:04
Come on, it is like saying there are no Christian Turks. None of the cases are common but it is inevitable to occur. It is just the past views that still affect us and we find it hard to believe in such equations.
 
Of course, There are christian turk in world.(I am aware of it.) But in Turkey, there is not any group who call themself as christian turks.(except lately converted Turks.) I am sure, You could not find a big christian turk population at greece too.
 
Acording to ottomans, There are not turks or greeks but muslims and orthodox. And most of these muslims turned to Turks. Specially, Greek and armenian muslims..  There are pomaks, albanian, bosniaks, or other people in Turkey but there is not muslim greeks or armenians.. These both group is totally asimilated by Turks. I think It is related with bloody past.
 
I am not saying his is ideal situation but This is real situation.  At balkains, I think only albanians are successful to differentiate religion and nation.
 
 
By the way, You can find a lot people who know Rumca(I think a little different from greece langauge.I cannot understand any thing from greek langauge.) at trabzon(includes my village.) but none of them call themself as greek or rum. Infact, trabzon is one of most nationalist city in Turkey.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 17:04
Hello to you all
 
As far as I know, Arabs only knew the city of Erzurum by that name from the Turks. All Arab geography books and especially dictionaries (Al-Himyari and Yaqut) as well as Arab historians called Erzurum by its armenian name Qaleqa or Kaleeka. Later it was known also as Arzen. It seems that the Turks, who َض (dhad) as zad mistranslated it from Arzen to Ardhen (ارزن-ارض) and then put rum after ارض and it became Erzrum (ارضروم). But i really wonder, why did Arabs call greeks Yunan rather than Hellens?
 
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Posts: 1813 		  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 18:20
Mortaza, i agree with what you said. Good point about albanians as well. I take of the hat to them in that issue.

In any case, believe it or not it was through a turkish documentary i found out about some villages in Turkey with such populations. I know about Trabzond, but this documentary was partly in a city called Iskenderli and some other villages below trabzond. However, i don't think there are large in numbers. I also heard that some of them don't really know what language they speak.

In the case of muslims in Greece, you will find a number of Greek muslims, mainly because they live amongst other muslim people like Turks and Pomaks.


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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 18:36

I do not think that They do not know what langauge they are talking. Name of langauge is rumca. Trabzon is not such a big city. They absolutely know langauge, They just refuse to become a greek.

By the way, I have no idea about iskenderli. My village is at dernekpazarı. It was a part of Of.
 
I am not sure about numbers, maybe between 10.000.-20.000 at trabzon. And maybe 20.000-50.000 outside of trabzon.(Mostly istanbul.) I should add new generation dont know rumca. I just can partly understand it.
 
The most ironic thing is that. When military tried to decrease greek number at Imroz(Gökçeada.) island, They populated gökçeada with people(Some of them are my relatives.) who speak rumca from trabzon. Haha. So It looks like even Turkish military do not see them as greek.
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 00:41
Originally posted by Mortaza

The most ironic thing is that. When military tried to decrease greek number at Imroz(Gökçeada.) island, They populated gökçeada with people(Some of them are my relatives.) who speak rumca from trabzon. Haha. So It looks like even Turkish military do not see them as greek. 
This is ironic! I did not know this. But i can bring this all to even greater heights of irony. I know Greeks from Imbros (one former uncle and inlaw of inlaws) and I have heard from them, they were called 'turko' by other Greeks when they fled (in the begining).
 
but no the Rumca speaking muslims are not Greeks as we understand the term. Only the Christains (originally on the west side) managed to replace the 'Roman' indentity with something more ethnic (and narrow), the Muslim Greek speaker could never really share that revival already split by religion and on the wrong side of the sword. The conflict were always based on a religoius footing, between 2 opposing classes in the ottomon society. Shame, but thats was the ottomon system and its outcome, religoius division was much more important than anything that was to emerge as 'ethnic'. While now we may say Greek muslim or christain turk, that is a very modern way of looking at it. Something that did not happen anytime just before or after the seperation at birth of the two ethnic based countries which have now imprinted a big impression of the psyche of the 'grey area' type groups like the Rumca.
 
 
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Posts: 1355 		  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 12:04
Check this out:
 
This was a poll on ethnic background of Turkish citizens, by a reliable Turkish company, one of few such studies. This is I wrote there about the issue you were discussing:
 
"While ethnic Greeks are about 0.01% or so, people who speak Greek as their mother language are 0.1%, ten times higher. So most 'Greeks' in Turkey are not Christian, but Muslim, and don't consider themselves Greek."
 
0.1% of population is like 70000, so Mortaza's estimates seem accurate to me.
 
Infact, trabzon is one of most nationalist city in Turkey.
Like my friend Kotumeyil writes, latest converts usually have more zeal. :)
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2008 at 20:34
They are not latest converts :) I think, they just cannot differentiate with becoming nationalist and becoming religious.
 
But isnt it a illness for all Turkey.


Edited by Mortaza - 07-Oct-2008 at 20:37
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