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The anti-rape condom

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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The anti-rape condom
    Posted: 23-May-2007 at 04:28
I'd say judging by your answers Sparten, that you are by no means free of these myths. Pity.

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 04:47
Originally posted by Sparten

Its  true that a man who really wants to rape a woman will get his way due to his strength. However someone who gives a real fight can chase off all but the most determined rapist and probably raise alarm while shes at it. Resisting is a good idea, contary to popular opinion.


How about drugging the victim prior to rape. A very common tactic, actually.

I think expecting a woman to always be fully capable of fighting off someone twice her strength is pretty absurd, especially if he comes equipped with a knife or something. Rapists choose victims they think are easy targets and do whatever it takes to soften them up.
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 05:07
     Thats a great idea. However, rape doesn't really happen when people expect it, so I don't think a woman is going to wear that thing 24/7 (unless its comfy...)

     Also, what if the rapist goes backdoor?


Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Being raped is bad enough, they should not also have to deal with having killed a person.


     I think its just as traumatizing for the girl to see some guy jumping around, crying and screaming with blood gushing out of his crotch (not to mention that most guys would prefer death to having spikes jammed in their penis). But I guess knowing that you have killed someone has a more intense and longer lasting effect. Either way, rape is not pretty, so the reaction to it can only be ugly.

Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 23-May-2007 at 05:08
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 05:27
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

     Thats a great idea. However, rape doesn't really happen when people expect it, so I don't think a woman is going to wear that thing 24/7 (unless its comfy...)
I think the idea is to wear it when you have to walk the streets alone in the dark.


     Also, what if the rapist goes backdoor?
Bad luck. Most rapes are not backdoorish. To prevent at least a portion of the vaginal ones is a big step. First things first I guess...


Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Being raped is bad enough, they should not also have to deal with having killed a person.


     I think its just as traumatizing for the girl to see some guy jumping around, crying and screaming with blood gushing out of his crotch (not to mention that most guys would prefer death to having spikes jammed in their penis). 
 
I do not think this thing is that horrid. It has really small hooks. Just enough to hurt, not enough to maim. That would just result in charges of inflicting bodily harm.
 
And it won't come off... that is the clincher: you need to go to a hospital to get it off, and explain how it got there ... LOL


Edited by Aelfgifu - 23-May-2007 at 05:28

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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 05:57
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I do not think this thing is that horrid. It has really small hooks. Just enough to hurt, not enough to maim.


     Oh ya, it only has dozens of small hooks designed to pierce the most sensitive part of a man's body.... not that I care about rapists' safety during a rape, but I'm just telling you that it would cause agonizing pain. It can easily cut into a vein thats close to the surface of the skin! Plus, lets say the guy puts it in, he will eventually go soft, and considering the spikes are at the bottom end (and pointing up), it will slice more skin as he loses his erection. And even if the guy stays erect then that just means more bloodflow which means more blood. Either way its gonna be messy. Glad I'm not a rapist.


Originally posted by Aelfgifu

And it won't come off... that is the clincher: you need to go to a hospital to get it off, and explain how it got there ... LOL


     Ya the insult to injury ratio is high, and thats saying a lot when you're talking about a device that jams spikes into your penis LOL


Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Bad luck. Most rapes are not backdoorish. To prevent at least a portion of the vaginal ones is a big step. First things first I guess...


     I think you're right. Although I'm tempted to patent the Teething Anus.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2007 at 14:22
The Rapex is a device which at least gives women a fighting chance against a rapist. I also think that rapists may think twice about raping a woman knowing that such a device is available. I'm pretty sure that if a rapist ever gets "caught" by The Rapex, he'll, first of all, be very embarrassed when he has to seek medical attention to get it removed, and, secondly, he'll get a clear message that he shouldn't stick his penis where it doesn't belong!

The other alternative, of course, is the Lorena Bobbitt method....but that could be even more painful for the guy! For those of you who don't know, Lorena Bobbitt chopped off her husband's penis with a kitchen knife as he slept because he physically abused her and carried on numerous affairs. She tossed the penis out the window and it was eventually found and was re-attached to Mr. Bobbitt (who subsequently became a porn star)!

Edited by morticia - 23-May-2007 at 14:28
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 01:11
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Also, what if the rapist goes backdoor?


In this I think there is cause for concern. If the Rapex device were to be applied in societies where rape is common, then men would realise this pretty quickly. So when raping in the future, they would purposely go "backdoor" to avoid getting hurt.

And that form of rape is more painful, intrusive (I would argue) and medically dangerous than conventional penetration. Only in not getting impregnated would there be any benefit, though I think that would be cold comfort.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 01:38
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I'd say judging by your answers Sparten, that you are by no means free of these myths. Pity.
Well thats your opinion. And you are entitled to it. But what I wrote was based on observations from actually having to deal with rape cases. You live in a world of black and white, where all rapes are done by some sadist , predator who enters a womans home and dose the act. The reality is rather different.
 
Judging someone is easy, critical thinking based on cold logic and facts rather then emotion is not.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 01:47
Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Sparten

Its  true that a man who really wants to rape a woman will get his way due to his strength. However someone who gives a real fight can chase off all but the most determined rapist and probably raise alarm while shes at it. Resisting is a good idea, contary to popular opinion.


How about drugging the victim prior to rape. A very common tactic, actually.

I think expecting a woman to always be fully capable of fighting off someone twice her strength is pretty absurd, especially if he comes equipped with a knife or something. Rapists choose victims they think are easy targets and do whatever it takes to soften them up.
Did you even read what I wrote? I said that putting up a fight and raising alarm would deter most rapist. As pointed out they are usually oppurtunity actions usually rather than pre-planned ones.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 01:52
Originally posted by Sparten

Originally posted by Constantine XI

Originally posted by Sparten

Its  true that a man who really wants to rape a woman will get his way due to his strength. However someone who gives a real fight can chase off all but the most determined rapist and probably raise alarm while shes at it. Resisting is a good idea, contary to popular opinion.


How about drugging the victim prior to rape. A very common tactic, actually.

I think expecting a woman to always be fully capable of fighting off someone twice her strength is pretty absurd, especially if he comes equipped with a knife or something. Rapists choose victims they think are easy targets and do whatever it takes to soften them up.
Did you even read what I wrote? I said that putting up a fight and raising alarm would deter most rapist. As pointed out they are usually oppurtunity actions usually rather than pre-planned ones.


I don't think that is the case though. A huge amount of rapes today take place where someone is out for a night on the town and their drink gets spiked, because they are drugged they are unable to put up resistance.

Rapes tend to happen in secluded places where opportunity to raise the alarm is not available. And rape victims are typically not targeted because they are physically built. I would guess that most rape victims do put up a fight (those that aren't drugged anyway), it's just that the rapist is so much stronger than them that their resistance is unsuccessful.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 04:12

Well that has not been my experience,Constantine XI.

date-rape and others are fairly rare when you look at the big picture, since the majority of rapists don't go out with a pre-planned attack. Usually the sitaution is either oppurtunity, which usually means the perpretator sees an oppurtunity for such an act during the course of another crime, burglary, assualt or kidnapping for instance. And finally you have the so called passion crimes, which are when intercourse is between people who were intimate before or where one person goes too far.
 
The last two are cases where often raising an alarm will help. These are te vast majority of rape cases.
 
The list published by Aelfgifu, relates more or less only to the first category.
 
 
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 04:27
I suppose there is a difference between your country and mine then, 'cause here the majority of the rapes does occur during nights on the town, I've never heard of a rape during a burglary ever here. Burglars come to steal stuff in stealth. When you surprise them, they run away, they do not rape. Why on earth would they?
 
As for my world being black and white, I'd say it is considerably less so than your world, in which a gun is apparently the only solution to anything that you don't like.
 
Rape is a black and white crime: rape is bad. There is never, ever in any circumstance an excuse for it. If the woman is a prostitute, rape is still a crime (and prostitutes, I'd argue, are not promiscuous. Quite the opposite in fact) I a woman walks a dangerous street in the night, that is unwise, but not an excuse, when a girl wears a short skirt, that is not even an issue of an excuse. If you think any of these are, I cannot respect that.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 05:48
Up to you to respect my opinions or not.
 
I would be interested in seeing some study based on emperical evidence about rapes in the Netherlands or if you have experience in this area your own observations, rather than simple assertions such as "rapes occur during nights on town". My own observations are from 5 years, first as a law student assisting on cases, then as a junior attorney myself. I have also read up on reseach done on this area by people from the University of Chicago, as well as reports  of rape cases by police departments in the US, Europe, Canada and Australia. Indeed personal violence offences was a projecty I did back in 2nd year. So you will excuse me if I feel I have a bit more knowledge in this area. I would of course be delighted if you would present your own.
 
 
 
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 06:31
Well how about these figures:
 
in 25% of cases the assuater is unknown to the victim, so in 75% of the cases the attacker is from within the victims sphere.
 
in 3% of cases weapons are used, in about 30% violence of another nature.
 
Now, if 75% of the victims knows the attacker, it can hardly have been a burglar can it? There is plenty of articles about rape in the Netherlands, but they are all in Dutch. All I can say is that, in the Netherlands, as well as in the rest of Europe, chances of being raped by a total stranger on the street are slim. Being raped by a guy you met in a bar because he got drunk and could not restain himself is far more likely. Because the victims know the attacker, they generally do not fight: they are stunned or just scared, and they just wait for it to be over. Realisation that they were raped, that they should have struggled or resisted and that what the guy did was not right, often only sets in the next day.
 
And here is another figure: only in 17% of the cases, the crime is reported to the police. In the remaining 83% of cases charges are never pressed, and so lawyers will not get involved. I'd say the women you have worked with are hardly an average representation of rape victims: they are only a very small percentage. Now if I would have to bet, I'd say it is not the women who get raped by someone they knew that begin lawsuits.
 
I am just surprised that having worked with rape victims, you have apparently not been able to rid yourself of prejudice towards them. You still think that it is their own fault, and that they could have prevented it, if only they tried. I find that impossible to understand.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 24-May-2007 at 06:51

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 07:36
Originally posted by Sparten

Well that has not been my experience,Constantine XI.

date-rape and others are fairly rare when you look at the big picture, since the majority of rapists don't go out with a pre-planned attack. Usually the sitaution is either oppurtunity, which usually means the perpretator sees an oppurtunity for such an act during the course of another crime, burglary, assualt or kidnapping for instance. And finally you have the so called passion crimes, which are when intercourse is between people who were intimate before or where one person goes too far.


Date rapes and drug assisted rates are common, I know that from being a sociable 21 year old. The number of friends I have who it has happened to is stunning, I don't actually know anyone personally who has been raped any other way. The trend has become so severe, that the state government of Victoria recently lifted the maximum penalty for drug assisted rape to 16 years imprisonment, quite hefty by the standards of our legal system. It is all too easy in a dark club to buy someone a drink, spike it when they aren't looking, and carry them off when the drug hits under the pretense you are merely escorting them home after they have had "a few too many".
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 10:00
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Well how about these figures:
 
in 25% of cases the assuater is unknown to the victim, so in 75% of the cases the attacker is from within the victims sphere.
 
in 3% of cases weapons are used, in about 30% violence of another nature.
 
Now, if 75% of the victims knows the attacker, it can hardly have been a burglar can it? There is plenty of articles about rape in the Netherlands, but they are all in Dutch. All I can say is that, in the Netherlands, as well as in the rest of Europe, chances of being raped by a total stranger on the street are slim. Being raped by a guy you met in a bar because he got drunk and could not restain himself is far more likely. Because the victims know the attacker, they generally do not fight: they are stunned or just scared, and they just wait for it to be over. Realisation that they were raped, that they should have struggled or resisted and that what the guy did was not right, often only sets in the next day.
 
And here is another figure: only in 17% of the cases, the crime is reported to the police. In the remaining 83% of cases charges are never pressed, and so lawyers will not get involved. I'd say the women you have worked with are hardly an average representation of rape victims: they are only a very small percentage. Now if I would have to bet, I'd say it is not the women who get raped by someone they knew that begin lawsuits.
 
I am just surprised that having worked with rape victims, you have apparently not been able to rid yourself of prejudice towards them. You still think that it is their own fault, and that they could have prevented it, if only they tried. I find that impossible to understand.
Pretty much what I expected. If you had read my entire post you would have read that I wrote
 
"And finally you have the so called passion crimes, which are when intercourse is between people who were intimate before or where one person goes too far."
 
It is for that precise reason that rapes are so hard to prove, since the defendent easily raises the plea of consent.
 
As for the number of rape victims I worked with it was obviously necessarily small compared to the whole number of victims in a given year, but still more or less representative and in two countries, i,e Pakistan and UK.
 
Also what do your figure relate to? Actual reported cases? Convictions? Or best estimate of rapes? If its the first and the second then the % of cases where the victims knew the attacker would be fairly less reletivly since most of these are either not reported or where aquittal results. As for the third well I think the vast majority of victims would know there attackers.
 
Rape often occur with another crime and often it is the other crime which is charged rather than rape, due to the inherent difficulty of discharghing the evidential burden. Do your statistics include that as well?
 
Finally, I have prejudice towards no one. As for sympathy, you have that for individuals, not a class. Every victim is different. A 16 year old who is brutally raped by her uncle (a case I dealt with) is more deserving of symphaty then a woman who let a man she knew to be violent into her house (another case I delt with). In both cases the fact of the crime is just as grave, but not the circumstances.
 
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 10:34
These are figures from an official report on rape and sexual crimes of the Office of Statistics in the Netherlands. They are based on a whole range of informations sources, from police reports to public inquiries and research. These statistics do not include figures of incest or child abuse, only crimes commited towards women of 15 year or older are included. 
 
You base your opinion on two years of legal work.
 
If you want me to choose who to believe to know best, them or you, guess.
 
I can feel symphaty towards a group of people, why not? Why would one raped woman be less pityable than another, just because she was in a different situation? Yes, that woman was unwise perhaps. How does this make her less deserving of symphaty? If she had known the man would rape her, she would have kept him out no doubt. Seems to me the mistake here was that she dared to trust someone. Hardly an excuse to condone rape.
 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 11:52
I never condoned rape. I said she was stupid. Please stop misrepresenting what I said. You can critisize me all you want of course. But please base it on what I actually said.
 
 
As for the report, well what you tell me is not enough to make a comment. I would need more info on the things I mentioned above. As for who you perfer to beleive, that is up to you.
 
And yes they should be treated differently. You don't seem take into account the distinctness of persons and situations. She may not have know that he would rape her, but she knew his tendancy to violence, and such actions were some that she could have contemplated. She was an adult woman who made a choice and while I can't obvioulsy say the rape was justified, I can say she did not help herself much. The 16 year old was helpless when an adult in a power position attacked her. She did not choose anything.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 12:07
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

But the advantage of this is that it helps punishing the rapist without turning innocent women into murderers.
 
In my mind they are not murderes, such animals that decide to rape should die.
 
It is not the rapist I am worried about. It is the women. Being raped is bad enough, they should not also have to deal with having killed a person. Murder comes a lot less easy to women you know.
 
Oh I know, just stating my opinion on the worthlessness of such animals.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2007 at 12:21
Originally posted by Sparten

I never condoned rape. I said she was stupid. Please stop misrepresenting what I said. You can critisize me all you want of course. But please base it on what I actually said.
 
Here is what you just said:
 The 16 year old was helpless when an adult in a power position attacked her. She did not choose anything.
 
From which, logically, the conclusion can be drawn that you think the other woman did have a choice, which in turn leads to the implied suggestion that that woman, by opening the door, was choosing to be raped.
 
And that is wrong. Because women do not choose to be raped. And, because women, no matter who where and why, should be able to open their doors without being raped for it.
 
So logically, from your wording, I have to draw the conclusion that you think it was this womans own fault that she was raped. And that makes me feel very sorry she got you as a lawyer, because I think a woman who was raped deserves to be repesented by a man who actually supports her case.

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