QuoteReplyTopic: "Slavic settlements in the Balkans" Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 03:17
"Lol,your case is a mix of ignorance and mistrust.It is not an Albanian site or forum but its a collection of translated documents made by Robert Elsie,perhaps the Best Albanologist in this moment,he is also an exellent translator of Albanian."
Right a website that says Aristotle and Alexander were Albanian lol and that you are actually the real Greeks.
"
No Dude i was talking about Greeks,you said i mentioned them.But probably all was already in your mind."
First you say you didn't mention Serbs or Greeks now you say you mention Greeks. Whatever, it's irrelevant.
"
Epirote and Albanian were exactly the same thing as i said,and its easy understandable also from that letter.But i brought you other links."
No in the letter it says not to make fun of albanians and that he is from Epirus and Epirotes went as far as India to fight with Alexander. But again judging by your sources...you'll think what you want.
"
Its also general knowledge among linguists (except for you),that Albanian and Latin share many common features too."
Show me that they are latin and not italian. Perhaps you can show me some proof via some knowledgeable linguist?
"Im waiting.Can you at least tell were did you read or heard it?Lets hope not again in that forum brought by GoldenBlood."
No i didn't. And I don't even go to that forum. I simply googled and it came up with that and I thought those were interesting points. The notion of white supremacy is just silly to me.
Right a website that says Aristotle and Alexander were Albanian lol and that you are actually the real Greeks.
Lol you are joke,just Click on it dude,and tell me where Aristotle and Alexander are mentioned.
First you say you didn't mention Serbs or Greeks now you say you mention Greeks. Whatever, it's irrelevant.
Not this part of the debate started when you mentioned Greeks.Its revelant to understand with what kind of person im dealing,
"
Epirote and Albanian were exactly the same thing as i said,and its easy understandable also from that letter.But i brought you other links."
Here you have smth else proving it:
Among other early examples of written Albanian are a baptismal formula (1462) and the book Meshari (1555; “The Liturgy,” or “The Missal”) by the Roman Catholic prelate Gjon Buzuku. The publication in 1635 of the first Albanian dictionary was a milestone in the history of Albanian literature. The author of the Dictionarium latino-epiroticum (“Latin-Albanian Dictionary”) was Frang Bardhi, a Catholic bishop.
source britannica
No in the letter it says not to make fun of albanians and that he is from Epirus and Epirotes went as far as India to fight with Alexander. But again judging by your sources...you'll think what you want.
If you don't know Scanderbeg was Albanian,but anyway i brought you another example of epirotic replacing Albanian.
Show me that they are latin and not italian. Perhaps you can show me some proof via some knowledgeable linguist?
I brought a quote from the respectable britannica,stateing that,you brought nothing,so the ball is in your court.
No i didn't. And I don't even go to that forum. I simply googled and it came up with that and I thought those were interesting points. The notion of white supremacy is just silly to me.
"Lol you are joke,just Click on it dude,and tell me where Aristotle and Alexander are mentioned."
Not even going to waste my time searching for lame crap like that. I can just ask you though. Do you think Alexaner was Albanian? Aristotle?
"Not this part of the debate started when you mentioned Greeks.Its revelant to understand with what kind of person im dealing,"
I think my name kind of suggests where i'm from well enough.
"
Here you have smth else proving it:
Among other early examples of written Albanian are a baptismal formula (1462) and the book Meshari (1555; “The Liturgy,” or “The Missal”) by the Roman Catholic prelate Gjon Buzuku. The publication in 1635 of the first Albanian dictionary was a milestone in the history of Albanian literature. The author of the Dictionarium latino-epiroticum (“Latin-Albanian Dictionary”) was Frang Bardhi, a Catholic bishop.
source britannica"
Because catholic priests used latin almost exclusivly? -_- I mean come on that one was obvious.
"If you don't know Scanderbeg was Albanian,but anyway i brought you another example of epirotic replacing Albanian."
He was a Greek from Epirus. Epirus is Greek.
"I brought a quote from the respectable britannica,stateing that,you brought nothing,so the ball is in your court."
Not even going to waste my time searching for lame crap like that.
Poor Robert Elsie,his collection of medieval and modern documents about Albania,are considered a lame crap,by our carpathian.
I guess being an Albanologist and translating original documents about Albanians in english is considered a crime now.
some of the documents,in that website:(its not for you carpath but for people willing to learn smth about Albanians,in the light of original documents,without any external comment)
corner of Europe which is often ignored by historians and scholars. It is not designed as a history of Albania or of the Albanians, but is simply a compilation of historical texts - some important and some less important - from the eleventh to the twentieth century, which will add to an understanding of the history and development of Albania and its people. Many of these works have never appeared before in translation.
15cent
1154 Muhammad al-Idrisi: The Book of Roger
1497 Arnold von Harff: Pilgrimage from Cologne
1308 Anonymous:Description of Eastern Europe
16 to 18 cent.
1515 John Musachi:Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty
1621 Pjetër Budi:An Albanian Bishop Calls for an Uprising
1705-1715 Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz:Correspondence on the Albanian Language
1670 Evliya Chelebi:Seyahatname - a Journey to Berat and Elbasan
1591 Lorenzo Bernardo:Journey of the Venetian Ambassador
19 cent
1809 - 1810Lord Byron:Letters on Albania
1830 Benjamin Disraeli:Letter on a Visit to Albania
1848 Edward Lear:The Devil Writes
20cent
1937 Vaso Cubrilovic:L'expulsion des Albanais - Mémoire
1909 Edith Durham:In the Debatable Lands.
this is just a little part of the documents that people can find there.
I can just ask you though. Do you think Alexaner was Albanian? Aristotle?
stop trolling and stick to the topic
I think my name kind of suggests where i'm from well enough.
I don't care,and this not related with what i said.
Because catholic priests used latin almost exclusivly? -_- I mean come on that one was obvious
It is latin but it can be chinese as well,thats irrelevant,i posted that to show an example of epiroticum and Albanian meaning the same thing.But like always you "misunderstood" it.
He was a Greek from Epirus. Epirus is Greek.
Any source or data proving that.You have an entire topic about him in this forum so you can give your contribute there.
lets see what Edward Gibbon wrote about him:
Skanderbeg's father, Gjon Kastrioti, was a hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania
and our beloved britannica
born 1405, northern Albania died Jan. 17, 1468, Lezhë, Albania
A son of John (Gjon) Kastrioti, prince of Emathia, George was early given as hostage to the Turkish sultan. Converted to Islām and educated at Edirne, Turkey, he was given the name Iskander—after Alexander the Great—and the rank of bey (hence Skanderbeg) by Sultan Murad II. During the defeat of the Turks at Niš (1443), in Serbia, Skanderbeg abandoned the Turkish service and joined his Albanian countrymen against the forces of Islām. He embraced Christianity, reclaimed his family possessions, and in 1444 organized a league of Albanian princes, over which he was appointed commander in chief
There was no INVASION! There were migrations caused by the
Hunic raids. It was the Huns, Avars, Goths, Visigoths, Tatars, Bulgars and
similar Asiatic tribes that intruded into European continent. IF you take a
look at the map of Europe, it turns out that Austria,
Hungary, and Romania are the
belt that divides the otherwise compact Slavic world.
The intrusion of Huns and Avars caused, say, the Serbian tribes who populated
the Danube region to split in Lusatian Serbs (living in Germany
mostly), and Balkan Serbs.
If we suppose that the South Slavs came to the
Balkans from behind the Carpathians, then we have to explain how they crossed
the already settled lands of the Huns and Avars, who were well known for their
blood-thirsty nature.
If one should study Venetology and the Vinca and Danube
scripts, then one may see the similarity of the neolithic literacy with that of
the Cyrillic epoch. There was a continuation of the use of this script which
can be found on rocks all across Macedonia today.
If one studies Homer's both style and linguistic content, one will surely
recognize a lot of Slavic elements in its epics, which brings us to conclusion
that the Slav speaking substratum had been present on the Balkans, prior to the
supposed "INVASIONS'.
If you take into consideration the discovery with the Demotic text of the
Rosetta stone, than you will certainly complete this mosaic with the
cornerstone, which is the ancient Macedonian language, that was of Slavic
group.
"St. Petersburg, May 13 (MIA) - The Russians and other Slavs didn't
migrate from the north to the south, instead they originated from the south and
moved to the north, claimed Russian academician Valery Chudinov, who takes part
at the first intenational congress titled "Pre-Cyrillic Literacy and
Pre-Christian Culture among Slavs", being held in Pushkin near St. Petersburg,
Russia."
It is time for the Greek to do the same.
Old views are abandoned in the face of the archaeological truth that emerges
all around the place.
And as Homer put it in his Iliad, the people living north from the Olympus mountain speak the same language and are as
numerous as the leaves in the forest.
If you consider the above, than in Homer's time, the Slav speaking tribes
occupied a wide area from Olympus to the Russian steppes, and WERE and still
ARE the most numerous linguistic group of people in Europe.
This is what the VINCA culture studies suggests:
"The Danube Script appeared some 7,000 years ago in the Danube valley: in Serbia, Kosovo-Metohija, Southern Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria,
Macedonia and northern Greece.
It flourished for one and a half millennia. Around 5,500 years ago, a social
upheaval eclipsed this and other elements of the advanced culture of the Danube
Civilization. Some researchers argue that there were devastating invasions of
new populations from the steppes while others have hypothesised the imposition
of new dominant elites."
"These three small, inscribed tablets started a debate that is challenging
the conventional wisdom of European prehistory, because they have been dated
from around 6.500 years ago.¹ Some scholars argue they date even earlier at
7,300 years old.² More prudent researchers, date the stones to 6,000-5,800
years ago. In any case, the astonishing question is did the South-eastern
Neolithic Europe develop its own script before Sumeria and Egypt?"
We are talking about the Tartaria Tablets here, which according to Wikipedia,
"are generally believed to have belonged to the Vinča culture, which at
the time was believed by Serbian and Romanian archaeologists to have originated
around 2700 BC."
It turns out that the Dorian tribes were the first to INVADE
the Balkans, according to Homer, and devastated the Mycenaean and Minoan
civilizations, their scripts Linear A and B being of the Vinca and Danube type. They founded the Greek city-states and
started the Greek civilization. The guests abused their hosts' hospitality and
later betrayed the Macedonians who were Slav speaking, and barbarians to the
Dorian Greeks, and akin to the Mycenaean predecessors of the Greek land!
Then it was the Huns, Avars, Goths, Visigoths, Tatars, and Bulgars that invaded
the Balkans in the middle ages, and caused serious dis-functioning of the Byzantine Empire otherwise ruled by Macedonians.
The Bulgarians were the newcomers on the Balkans, however the hospitality of
the Macedonians was to that extent that they even gave them literacy to allow
them independent existence from the Byzantine rule!
Then it was the Turks who INVADED the Balkans, and the Macedonians were again
the humble hosts who gave Turkey Atatürk, who was born in Solun and educated in
Bitola, and in love with a Macedonian girl, Elena, which all in all influenced him
to do what he did in order to make Turkey a modern democratic state!
All these were the INVADERS starting with the Dorian Greeks and the Macedonians
were always here offering hospitality to all! But look how you have retaliated.
There is an inscription on a clay plate, from Gradeshnica near Vraca in the Republic of Macedonia, which according to Marija
Gimbutas, dates back to c.5000 BC. According to Bulgarian archaeologists, it
dates back to c. 3500 BC. IT belongs to the Vinca culture and if compared to
the Cyrillic script it gives a message:
"HIDE NOW
PEOPLE, BAD AS DOGS
WHO COME DISGUISED,
ARE COMING AGAIN"
WOW! This is a 5000 or more years old message.
Who was this mystic who prophesied what was to come in the future, and warn all
the Macedonians, or better say Slav speaking people of Macedonia, that
BAD PEOPLE as DOGS are going to come again?
This has been the sad truth about Macedonia! And bad people are still
coming, such as the Albanians who are a hybrid nation comprised of many ethnic
groups among which an Iranian tribe of Albanoi who were settled in the Balkans
by the Turks and given freedom to terrorize the local population in order to
extort them to convert to Islam.
Even in modern times, we are facing the same reality, and the mysterious author
of the 5000 years old clay plate still has a powerful message for us, that has
not lost any of its meaning.
How strange! It is again the political nation of Greece that is trying to persuade
us to accept the lies, instead of accepting the truth and allowing us to live
in freedom. After all we hosted you and did not ask anything from you! See how
you retaliated! You do not even have Christian mercy in your hearts, not
talking about gratitude or humane compassion.
It is still a widely spread
belief, however, that Phocas’ revolt caused the collapse of the Roman
frontier. As a consequence, ever since Robert Roesler argued that the
Slavic settlement of the Balkan peninsula south of the Danube and the
Save rivers could not have taken place before the reign of Phocas,
historians speak of a Slavic stream now pouring in an irresistible
flood and submerging the entire peninsula. This view, however, is
contradicted by all existing evidence.
-As Franjo Barisic has demonstrated, there is no evidence for raiding activity, by either Avars or Slavs, during Phocas’ reign (602 AD).
-Moreover,
until the siege of Thessalonica during Heraclius’ early regnal years,
there is no evidence at all for outward migration, in the sense of a
permanent change of residence. Almost all raids reported by Procopius
in the mid-sixth century were followed by a return to the regions north
of the Danube frontier. At times, the Sclavene warriors may have spent
the winter on Roman territory, as in 550/1. However, Menander the
Guardsman makes it clear that the wealth acquired during Sclavene raids
was usually carried back home, across the Danube.
-No evidence
exists, however, that the Sclavenes established either on the frontier
of the Lombard kingdom or near Constantinople came from regions located
north of the Danube.
-The inhabitants of early Byzantine cities
displayed their wealth and status by building churches and paying for
their lavish decoration with mosaic floors. Except in Thessalonica,
there is no evidence for any other public buildings erected at that
time. Caricˇin Grad (Justiniana Prima) was dominated by the acropolis
on which the episcopal church was located.
This further suggests
that the power granted to local bishops by Justinian’s legislation
drastically altered the urban landscape.
- Just as in Carichin
Grad, there is no evidence to substantiate the idea of a Slavic
settlement. On the other hand, there is clear evidence that the fort at
Karasura was destroyed by fire at some point after Justinian’s reign.
- ... Such population movements, however, cannot be defined as migration. There
is simply no evidence for the idea that the inhabitants of the sixth
and early seventh-century settlements in Romania, Moldova, and Ukraine
were colonists from the North.
Nor does the idea of a “Slavic
tide” covering the Balkans in the early 600s fit the existing
archaeological data. South of the Danube river, no archaeological
assemblage comparable to those found north of that river produced any
clear evidence for a date earlier than c. 700.
- Furthermore,
there is no evidence, until the early regnal years of Heraclius, of an
outright migration of the Slavs (Sclavenes) to the region south of the
Danube river.
-No evidence exists that Romans ever tried to
prevent the crossing, despite the existence of a Danube military fleet.
Moreover, all major confrontations with Sclavene armies or “throngs”
took place south of the Stara Planina mountains.
- Nevertheless,
the efficiency of the fortified frontier, at least in its initial
phase, cannot be doubted. During the last fifteen years of Justinian’s
reign, no Slavic raid crossed the Danube.
- According to
Procopius, the Sclavenes were bent on capturing Thessalonica and the
surrounding cities. The threat must have been truly serious, for
Justinian ordered Germanus to defer his expedition to Italy and to
defend Thessalonica and the other cities. This measure proved to be
efficient, for the Sclavenes gave up their plans to capture
Thessalonica. Instead, they crossed the mountain ranges to the west and
entered Dalmatia, at that time still disputed between Ostrogoths and
Romans. Germanus did not follow them, both because of his other
commitments and because once in Dalmatia, the Sclavenes did not
represent any major threat to southern MACEDONIA.
- The emperor
(whose name is not given) eventually decided to send an army to Thrace
and to the “land on the opposite side,” against the Strymonian Slavs.
Since the siege can be dated to 677, and we are specifically told that
prior to the siege the emperor was preparing for war against the Arabs,
this expedition against the Sklaviniai of southern Macedonia must have
been ordered by Constantine IV. The successful campaign took place in
678, shortly after the failure of the Arab blockade of Constantinople.
Ten years later, another expedition led by Justinian II against the
Sklaviniai reached Thessalonica, where the presence of the emperor was commemorated in inscriptions. According to Theophanes, Justinian had directed his campaign against both Bulgaria and the Sklaviniai. This may indicate that the Sklaviniai of 688/9 were clients of the Bulgar qagan.
-
Evidence of an early phase of subdivision and encroachment also comes
from several Macedonian cities. At Stobi, large palatial residences
with elaborate courtyards with decorated fountains, floors with
pavements of mosaic or opus sectile, and walls covered with frescoes
and, occasionally, mosaics, were still in use in the early 500s.
In
other words there is a continuation of cultural life in Macedonian
cities and no indication of Slavic intrusion which would influence the
life in the cities.
- An entirely different picture (from the
current theories about Slavic migrations) results from the examination
of three Macedonian towns located on the coast: Philippi, Amphipolis
(near modern Iraklitsa), and Thessalonica.
- The evidence of the
Miracles of St Demetrius may help explain how Thessalonica survived as
a major urban center in the Balkans. On at least two occasions, the
Slavs launched attacks against the city while its citizens were busy
harvesting their crops on their estates and small holdings outside the
city walls. But at the same time, Thessalonica relied heavily on its
rations of public grain (annona), as evidenced by the eighth homily of
Book I.
- As long as Egypt was under Byzantine control,
Thessalonica continued to receive regular supplies of corn to
supplement the foods its population cultivated locally.
- It is now clear that during the sixth century, the region witnessed a serious contraction, but the complex readjustments taking place almost everywhere do not seem to have involved any rural sites.
-
All Macedonian forts have churches, either three-aisled or single-naved
basilicas. Which means that they were built by the Byzantine Empire and
NOT settled by Slavic tribes.
- Moreover, a closer examination
of the tabulated forts shows that most of those built along the Danube
frontier, in either Moesia Superior or Dacia Ripensis, were remarkably
small. By contrast, forts built in Macedonia, in Scythia Minor, or
Achaia tend to be large, over 1 ha. How could this situation be
explained?
- Strategikon XI 4.5: the Sclavenes “possess an
abundance of all sorts of . . . produce, which they store in heaps,
especially common millet and Italian millet.” Until very recently, clay
pans were still produced by women in various regions of the Balkans,
such as Bosnia, Macedonia, and Bulgaria. In all those regions, pans
remained in use as long as the baking of the bread on an open hearth
survived.
- Common Slavic itself may have been used as a lingua
franca within and outside the Avar qaganate. This may explain, in the
eyes of some linguists, the spread of this language throughout most of
Eastern Europe, obliterating old dialects and languages. It may also
explain why this language remained fairly stable and remarkably uniform
through the ninth century, with only a small number of isoglosses that
began to form before Old Church Slavonic was written down.
This
is also confirmed by the fact that Old Church Slavonic, a language
created on the basis of a dialect spoken in Macedonia, was later
understood in both Moravia and Kievan Rus.
- Slavic was also
used as a lingua franca in Bulgaria, particularly after the conversion
to Christianity in 865. It is only the association with this political
development that brought Slavic into closer contact with other languages.
This explains why, despite the presumed presence of Slavicspeaking
communities in the Balkans at a relatively early date, the influence of
Common Slavic on the non-Slavic languages of the area – Romanian,
Albanian, and Greek – is minimal and far less significant than that of
Bulgarian, Serbo-Croatian, and Macedonian.
The absence of a
significant influence of Common Slavic in the Balkans is also evident
from the small number of Balkan place names of Slavic origin, which
could be dated on phonetical grounds, with any degree of certainty,
before c. 800.
As with material culture emblemic styles, the
Slavic language may have been used to mark ethnic boundaries. The
emblematic use of Slavic, however, was a much later phenomenon and
cannot be associated with the Slavic ethnie of the sixth and seventh
centuries.Slavs did not become Slavs because they spoke Slavic, but
because they were called so by others.
- It has been argued that
Justinian depended on local farmers, serving as a kind of peasant
militia, to defend his walls and forts in the Balkan peninsula. 105
Both the absence of rural settlements and the great number of forts,
especially in the northern Balkans, show this conclusion to be wrong.
It would not have made much sense for the state to undertake such
expensive building projects, only to leave defense of these
fortifications in the hands of local militias. Whether or not the
troops which manned the forts remained there for a longer term cannot
be decided on the basis of the archaeological evidence alone. But the
general picture obtained from this evidence is one of rather permanent
garrisons, at least in medium to large forts, with houses, amenities,
and churches.
- There are at least three important conclusions
to be drawn from this sweeping survey of the archeology of the
Carpathian basin and the steppe north of the Black Sea. First, in all
cases discussed in this chapter, material culture may be and was indeed
used for the construction of social identities. Despite interaction
across the buffer zone between the Danube and the Tisza rivers, clear
material culture distinctions were maintained in a wide range of
artifacts.
Displays of emblemic styles were particularly
important at the time of the Lombard–Gepid wars in the mid-500s. More
often than not, such styles were associated with the status of
aristocratic women, wives, daughters, or mothers of “kings.” This may
be a result of the special emphasis laid on public representation of
group identity, but may also be an indication of the intricate
relationship between ethnic and gender identity.
The examination
of hoards of silver and bronze also shows that women were symbolic
vehicles for the construction of social identities. In this case,
however, it is more difficult to decide precisely what kind of identity
was constructed through displays of female dress accessories. Unlike
the Carpathian basin, the specific way in which identity was expressed
was not funerary assemblage but lavish offering of silver and bronze
artifacts, which may have represented a particular form of potlatch.
Finally,
the survey of the archaeological evidence from the Carpathian basin and
the steppe north of the Black Sea strongly suggests that in order for
material culture to participate in the construction of social
identities, artifacts need to be given meaning in social context.
Swords with Pshaped sheath attachments or stirrups with elongated
attachment loops were not “Avar” because of being of Central Asian
origin, but because of being used in a specific way in specific
transactions (such as display of grave-goods) in the new social milieu
in which Avar warriors found themselves after c. 570.
As I will
argue in the last chapter, just as in the case of “Lombard” and “Gepid”
identities, Slavic ethnicity may have been communicated through
displays of objects whose use was restricted to local elites. In such
cases, artifacts similar to those found in Ukrainian hoards are not
mere analogies. They have become metaphors.
- One important
conclusion resulting from this analysis is that during the second half
of the sixth century and the first decades of the seventh, a
relatively large number of sites appeared east and south of the
Carpathians, which displayed a similar set of artifact-categories. On many, occupation must have begun much earlier, as suggested by finds in Kodyn
and Bucharest-Mihai Voda˘. Others continued to be occupied during the
seventh century, as in Bucharest-Militari. On the evidence of the
selected sites, it seems that the dramatic increase in number of sites
took place during the second half of the sixth century, shortly after
the implementation of Justinian’s building program in the Balkans. As
shown in Chapter 4, this is also the period in which the number of
coins from both hoards and stray finds suddenly began to increase. More
important, Slavic raids resumed during this period on a very large
scale, often under the leadership of Slavic “kings” (Chapter 3). Social
and political change seems to have coincided with material culture
change, a coincidence which will be discussed in detail in the
following chapter. That this coincidence is no accident is shown by the
analysis of another artifact category associated with settlement
features of the second phase: “Slavic” bow fibulae.
CONCLUSION:
A
brief examination of the historiography of the “Slavic problem” yields
an important conclusion: the dominant discourse in Slavic studies, that
of “expert” linguists and archaeologists, profoundly influenced the
study of the early Slavs.
Because this model was based on widely
spread ideas about such critical concepts as culture, migration, and
language, the basic assumptions on which the model was based were
rarely, if ever, questioned.
One such assumption was that
ethnies, like languages, originate in an Urheimat and then expand over
large areas through migration. Migration was defined in the terms of
the Kulturkreis school, as the relatively rapid spread of racial and
cultural elements.
This led many scholars to abandon a serious
consideration of the historical evidence and to postulate instead a
Slavic Urheimat located in the marshes of the Pripet river. Chased from
their homeland in the North by the rigors of the harsh climate, the
Slavs then inundated Eastern Europe.
A Slavic homeland implied,
however, that the history of the Slavs was older than the first Slavic
raids known from historical sources. The cornerstone of all theories
attempting to project the Slavs into prehistory was Jordanes’ Getica.
The
Slavs did not migrate from the Pripet marshes because of hostile
environmental conditions. Nor did they develop forms of social
organization enabling them to cope with such conditions and presumably based on cooperation and social equality (zadruga).
Niederle’s
thesis does not stand against the existing evidence and has at its
basis an outdated concept of migration. That the migrationist model
should be abandoned is also suggested by the archaeological evidence
examined in Chapter 6.
No class of evidence matches current models for the archaeological study of (pre)historic migration.
More
important, assemblages of the Lower Danube area, where, according to
the migrationist model, the Slavs migrated from the Pripet marshes,
long antedate the earliest evidence available from assemblages in the
alleged Urheimat. Short-distance population movements, but not
migration, must have accompanied the implementation of a form of
“itinerant agriculture,” which, though not based on the slash-and-burn
method, may have encouraged settlement mobility.
Furthermore, no
clear evidence exists of an outright migration of the Slavs (Sclavenes)
to the regions south of the Danube until the early years of Heraclius’
reign. Phocas’ revolt of 602 was not followed by an irresistible flood
of Sclavenes submerging the Balkans. In fact, there are no raids
recorded during Phocas’ reign, either by Sclavenes or by Avars. By
contrast, large-scale raiding activities resumed during Heraclius’ early regnal years.
The
earliest archaeological evidence of settlement assemblages postdating
the general withdrawal of Roman armies from the Balkans is that of the
700s. This suggests that there was no “Slavic tide” in the Balkans
following the presumed collapse of the Danube frontier.
In
addition, the archaeological evidence confirms the picture drawn from
the analysis of written sources, namely that the “Slavs” were isolated
pockets of population in various areas of the Balkans, which seem to
have experienced serious demographic decline in the seventh century.
Nevertheless, the efficiency of the fortified frontier, at least in its initial phase, cannot be doubted. During the last fifteen years of Justinian’s reign, no Slavic raid crossed the Danube.
As
suggested in Chapter 3, the Sclavene ethnicity is likely to have been
an invention of Byzantine authors, despite the possibility, which is
often stressed by linguistically minded historians, that the name
itself was derived from the self-designation of an ethnic group. It is
interesting to note that this ethnic name (slovene) appeared much later
and only on the periphery of the Slavic linguistic area, at the
interface with linguistically different groups. Was language, then, as
Soviet ethnographers had it, the “precondition for the rise of ethnic
communities”? In the case of the Slavic ethnie, the answer must be
negative, for a variety of reasons.
Byzantine authors seem to
have used “Sclavenes” and “Antes” to make sense of the process of group
identification which was taking place under their own eyes just north
of the Danube frontier. They were, of course, interested more in the
military and political consequences of this process than in the
analysis of Slavic ethnicity.
The making of the Slavs was less a
matter of ethnogenesis and more one of invention, imagining and
labeling by Byzantine authors. Some form of group identity, however,
which we may arguably call ethnicity, was growing out of the historical
circumstances following the fortification of the Danube limes. This was
therefore an identity formed in the shadow of Justinian’s forts, not in
the Pripet marshes. There are good reasons to believe that this
identity was much more complex than the doublet “Sclavenes-Antes”
imposed by the Byzantine historiography.
Book II of the Miracles of St Demetrius and Fredegar’s chronicle give us a measure
of this complexity. That no “Slavs” called themselves by this name not
only indicates that no group took on the label imposed by outsiders,
but also suggests that this label was more a pedantic construction than
the result of systematic interaction across ethnic boundaries. The
first clear statement that “we are Slavs” comes from the
twelfth-century Russian Primary Chronicle.24 With this chronicle,
however, the making of the Slavs ends and another story begins: that of
their “national” use for claims to ancestry.
"I guess being an Albanologist and translating original documents about Albanians in english is considered a crime now."
Not a crime, just bs when you do it with a spin.
"stop trolling and stick to the topic"
The topic is slavs in the Balkans. Now answer my question. Do you thinke Alexander, and Aristotle were Albanian?
"I don't care,and this not related with what i said."
Then don't ask.
"It is latin but it can be chinese as well,thats irrelevant,i posted that to show an example of epiroticum and Albanian meaning the same thing.But like always you "misunderstood" it."
No where does it say Epirus is Albanian. He simply said the Epirote Latin dictionary. At the time maybe he simply named it such because Albania didn't exist. An Epirus was much more relevant to just about anyone in the area then Albania which did what? Nothing of note since the Romans conquored it at least.
"
Any source or data proving that.You have an entire topic about him in this forum so you can give your contribute there.
lets see what Edward Gibbon wrote about him:
Skanderbeg's father, Gjon Kastrioti, was a hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania
and our beloved britannica"
Epirus OR Albania.
"born 1405, northern Albania died Jan. 17, 1468, Lezhë, Albania"
You are speaking in modern terms of citizenship. In which case it doesn't work either since Albania didn't become a country until the 1900s.
oh man, guy responce with stromfront kids source...Moderators should warning this member about trolling
there are thausand books who had writet from XV-XVII Century from Europeans about Skanderbeg no one introduced greek, Skanderbeg always claimed about their of alb origin, Pope, Princes (venedians, Turks, Serbs ect called him George Albananese-Arbanasi) plus he did foght for indepedence of Albania (there did not have greek soldiers, only Albanians and one montengrin tribes of Albanian origin blajopavli (Palebardhi).
here is letter of Skanderbeg repliced with Prince of Toranto:
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?
In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neÕ) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeÕ?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.
"here is letter of Skanderbeg repliced with Prince of Toranto"
Okay let's look at it closely.
"Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults."
Here he speaks of Albanians being insulted. No mention of him being Albanian.
"Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies."
Nor have you shown yourself to have knowledge of MY race, and then speaks of Epirus. If what you say is true he would have said "our race".
"I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish."
He continues to speak about people of Epirus.
"If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty."
Here he speaks of Albania region being part of the Macedonian Kingdom of Alexander the Great. A Greek. and says that his ancestors went as far as India.
" From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep? "
He continues to defend his Epirot heritage. But I can see how one can confuse (especially if they want to) the sheep statement.
Carpathian you are funny, you are trolling are you blind? He said about Albanians being of Epiriot/Alexander the Great stock like alot european artciles albanians called epiriots or Macedonians.....do you see mention any greek word??
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf
"oh man, guy responce with stromfront kids source...Moderators should warning this member about trolling"
good you have noted your aroganly, you can't responce by science but stormfront.org from kids
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf
"oh man, guy responce with stromfront kids source...Moderators should warning this member about trolling"
" From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep? "
He continues to defend his Epirot heritage. But I can see how one can confuse (especially if they want to) the sheep statement.
he talked about Albanians and themself who said we are ancestors of Pirro and Alek. the Great.
The letter to Skanderbeg:
ÒGiovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgio albanese, greeting.
You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.
The topic is slavs in the Balkans. Now answer my question. Do you thinke Alexander, and Aristotle were Albanian?
Look who is talking the one claiming that Albanians speak Checenyan,and that Skanderbeg is Greek.You are nothing more that a poor provoker.
Then don't ask.
uh the troll
No where does it say Epirus is Albanian. He simply said the Epirote Latin dictionary. At the time maybe he simply named it such because Albania didn't exist. An Epirus was much more relevant to just about anyone in the area then Albania which did what? Nothing of note since the Romans conquored it at least.
You are not informed about Albanias history,and you are not even interested,so the only thing you are able to do is to play on words.
Epirus OR Albania.
Ok lets play.A quote that i already brought here,but that you just ignored.:
They say in fact that our dynasty stems from the city of Constantinople and came to rule over Epirus in Albania.
Source :John Musachi:Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty (1515)
You are speaking in modern terms of citizenship. In which case it doesn't work either since Albania didn't become a country until the 1900s.
Saying that a person was born in "North Albania",has nothing to do with someones citizenship.Do you know where north Albania is and where is Greece?
"Carpathian you are funny, you are trolling are you blind? He said about Albanians being of Epiriot/Alexander the Great stock like alot european artciles albanians called epiriots or Macedonians.....do you see mention any greek word??"
Actually no where does he say Albanians are Epirotes or that Albanians are of Alexander the Great's stock. He said that he is an Epirote and his people went to India with Alexander. And then also mentioned that he shouldn't insult Albanians.
Epirots are Greeks even the name Epirus is Greek.
"good you have noted your aroganly, you can't responce by science but stormfront.org from kids "
Actually I havn't attacked you personally at all. You have. Instead of focusing on my point you keep repeating that i'm a troll. "Oh please moderators ban him so I don't have to argue his points he's a big meanie."
"The letter to Skanderbeg:
ÒGiovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgio albanese, greeting. "
And John Hunyadi was Romanian on his father's side but because of whom he served he was regarded as Hungarian. So obviously he would be considered an Albanian because he fought in Albania and for Albania.
"We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep"
Albania. We already kow YOUR generation and respect the Albanese like sheep. If it were what you wanted to say it would read "We already know your Albanian generation and respect you (both) as sheep."
Maybe the problem isn't so much historical as it is english comprehension.
"U are talking nonsense."
uh huh.
"Look who is talking the one claiming that Albanians speak Checenyan,and that Skanderbeg is Greek.You are nothing more that a poor provoker."
I mentioned some similarities between Chechnyan language and Albanian because I am trying to figure out the ethnic composition. But you take it as an attack on your country and slip out. Perhaps a national character which explains a lot of political issues in that area of the world. I'm not questioning your mother's virginity, I simply want to learn and I had some questions.
I'll ask again, do you believe Alexander the Great and Aristotle were Albanian? Simple yes or no answer.
"
Ok lets play.A quote that i already brought here,but that you just ignored.:
They say in fact that our dynasty stems from the city of Constantinople and came to rule over Epirus in Albania.
Source :John Musachi:Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty (1515)"
Proves my point. His dynasty stems from the city of Constantinople. ROMANS, and more then likley Greek if not Latin. Epirus may have been ruled over via a seat in Albania. But yes thank you for proving my point. Skanderbeg's linnage is Greek via Constantinople which was mostly a Greek remnant of the Roman Empire which explains even why his seal was the double headed "Byzantine" Empire eagle.
"Saying that a person was born in "North Albania",has nothing to do with someones citizenship.Do you know where north Albania is and where is Greece?"
Sure it does. In those times for example citizenship didn't mean the same as it did today. If a spaniard woman gave birth to her child in Moesia he was still ethnicly Spaniard but he would probably be refered to as Moesian.
I'm not seeing any valid arguements from either one of you, just wishful thinking and a lot of eye squinting.
Actually no where does he say Albanians are Epirotes or that Albanians are of Alexander the Great's stock. He said that he is an Epirote and his people went to India with Alexander. And then also mentioned that he shouldn't insult Albanians.
Indeed he is saying that his soldiers ancestours fought with Aleksander and not that they are of their same stock.Also he calls his soldiers Albanians or Epirotes,clearly two names describing the same people.Albanians were often called Epirotes,in those times,probably even Greeks in this forun wiil confirm this to you.
Epirots are Greeks even the name Epirus is Greek.
Not the epirotes fighting with Skanderbeg for sure.You can find the descendents of his soldiers still today,in south Italy,and they speak an call themselves Albanian.
Actually I havn't attacked you personally at all. You have. Instead of focusing on my point you keep repeating that i'm a troll. "Oh please moderators ban him so I don't have to argue his points he's a big meanie."
You used a racist remark,and you did it consciously.
And John Hunyadi was Romanian on his father's side but because of whom he served he was regarded as Hungarian. So obviously he would be considered an Albanian because he fought in Albania and for Albania.
Hunyady can be what ever you wan’t,but Skanderbeg not only fought in Albania but also was an Albanian and that’s why the prince of Taranto called him “Giorgio Albanese” (the Albanian).I told you before Skanderbeg can’t be Greek just because you say so. If you have read it somewhere in hope in some book,just bring here the quote or the author and let discuss, about it.Just a tip i know at least one famous english author(not historian though),that called him Greek,but i doub't you have ever heard about him.
For the people here that really wan’t to know more,here is the full version of both letters,the one received and the reply of Scanderbeg.
The letter to Skanderbeg:
Ã’Giovanni Antonio, Prince of Taranto, to Georgio albanese, greeting.
(Conveniva a te?), that the luck you had shown in the war with the enemies of the Christian religion, which sometimes had forced combat, then leaving that field, you came to Italy to drive your armies against Christians? What cause do you hold against me? What have I done against you? What controversies do they make between us?
You have spoiled my territories and are crudely giving vent against my subjects, and first you have (mosso?) the war that (proposta?). You boast that you are a great warrior for the Christian religion and (pur?) yet you persecute this (geate?) which for every reason is called Christianity. You have turned your iron against the French of the Kingdom of Sicily. Perhaps you have thought to take the army against the effeminate Turks that you are accustomed to wounding in the back.
You will find other men who all support your proud appearance (?) and no one will avoid your face. Our Italian soldiers will challenge you very well and have no fear of the Albanese. We already know your generation and respect the Albanese like sheep, and it is an embarrassment to have such cowardly people for enemies; (neÕ?) would you have embarked on such a business if you had stayed to dwell in your house.
You have avoided the onslaught of the Turks, and not having the power to defend your own house, have thought to invade other peopleÕs. You are deceitful. Instead of a new house you are looking for your grave.
Skanderbegs answer:
Having made a truce with the enemy of my religion I have not wanted that my friend remain (fraudato) of my aid. (Spesse?) times, Alfonso, his father, invited my help while I waged war against the Turks. Therefore I would be very ungrateful if I had not resisted (lÕistesso?) service to his son. I remember what your king did because now (non deve vedere succedergli?) this who is his son? You adored his father, and why now do you try to throw out his son? Where did this power come from? Who has the power to set up the King of Sicily, you or the Roman Pontiff?
I came to aid Ferrante, son of the king and seat of the Apostolica. I came opposing your unfaithfulness and innumerable great betrayals in this kingdom. Will you ever be unpunished for your perjury. This is the reason for my war against you. I merit this no less than I merited making war against the Turks, nor are you less Turk than them. (ImperoccheÕ vi sono alcuni?) that guide you in a straight line not to be of some sect. You my opponents the French and the names of those people, and those for the religion wage grand war.
I do not want to dispute ancient matters with you, matters that perhaps were much less than what was told about them. Certainly in our times the Aragonese armadas have often coursed the Aegean Sea, have plundered the Turkish coasts, have (riportata?) the prey of the enemies; and even today the Aragonese armies defend Troja from the jaws of the enemy. Why do I remember the old things and leave the new parts? If they change the family costumes and the plowmen of the kingdom, and the kings of the plowmen return? (NeÕ troverai nobilitaÕ piuÕ antica della virtuÕ.)
Nor can I deny that you are not with the obnoxious French nation, (imperoccheÕ) you being mainly in aid of King Alfonso, you hunted the French of this kingdom. I do not know now what new virtue shines in this. Perhaps it is some new star that you have now seen among the French?
Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies.
I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?
In the past the Albanese have (fatto?) experience if the Pugilese were armed; (neÕ) I would again find some who would have been able to aspired to my nature. I have well noted from the back how many of your soldiers are well armed but have never been able to see their helmets or (tanpoco?) the face except those that have become prisoners. (NeÕ?) I seek your house (Bastandomi?) my own. Besides, it is well known that you often would have shot your neighbors for their possessions, as now you would force out the king of your house and your kingdom.
(Che se?) If I fall in the difficult task I have embarked on I will be buried as (mi vai?) wishing in your letter, will bring back my soul as a reward from the Chancellor of the universe, of God. Not only will I have perfected my intention, but also I will have planned and attempted some distinguished deed.
Good bye
I mentioned some similarities between Chechnyan language and Albanian because I am trying to figure out the ethnic composition. But you take it as an attack on your country and slip out. Perhaps a national character which explains a lot of political issues in that area of the world. I'm not questioning your mother's virginity, I simply want to learn and I had some questions.
First of all none here is talking about you mothers sexual life,and none is interested,there are hundred of others examples you can do to make your point clear, unless you are trying to provoke another reaction like the one GoldenBlood had some days ago,however i cordially ask you to choose your words better next time.
But ok lets see again some of those Checenian words.
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA as other members said this is not how chechenians call themselves ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA the correct term would be the Gheg Albanian Shkipni
Chechen=aakharkho,Albanian=katundar,Engl ish=peasant . These words look totally different,however we usually use the word Fshatar from Fshat(Village),But that’s strange why do you bring here the word Peasant(Katundar) and not Katun(Village),from where katundar cames from.Btw im not even sure that Katun is Albanian.
Chechen=alsamoo,Albanian=me shume,English=more
This is simply ridiculous.Like always the letter ëhere is never usedthat has a totally different sound from e.So the correct form would be : më shumë.
Well me shume means more thats true but just go and check in a dictionary and you will find this
English (63 entries.)
Shqip (63 hyrje.)
much
shumë
many
shumë
more
më shumë, më
a lot, a lot of, much, many
shumë, plot
very good (adverb)
shumë mirë
very good (adjective)
shumë i mirë / shumë e mirë
very
shumë, tepër
very much
shumë, tepër
very well
shumë mirë
sum
shumë {f} (emër)
Clearly Shume derives from the Latin Summa,and it has nothing to do with Checenian
Chechen=aagan,Albanian=eker,English=wild
The correct form is i egër,But do you want some other similarities?We have savage(eng),selavagio(ita).So I guess a lot of other europians are indeed checenians.
Chechen=aara dalan,Albanian=jashte dal,English=get out
Here the Author is playing dirty.Jashtë dal means Out Get,so it means nothing,obviously the order of the words was reversed on purpose,the right form is Dal jashte.and the meaning is not exactly “get out” but “I get out”.Probably aara means dal and Dalan meams jasht.so we are dealing with two totally different words,and an open manipulation.
Chechen=aaradaqqa,Albanian=terhoqa,Engli sh=withdra w
Again a mistake.Tërhoqa means withdrawed,withdraw instead is Tërheq,and in Gheg(old) Albanian instead tërhiek.Again nothing in common.
This bs is really disgusting.To understand why just see the example above aaradalan were the Albanian translation Dal jashte was intentionally reversed in Jashte dal to make dalan look the same with dal.Where indeed Dal is the same word with aara,and the proof is also this last example.
In AAra Dovliva obviously AAra means out and in the Albanian word Rrugëdalje Dalje(the same as dal) means out,exit,instead rruge means way,road.so the correct translation would be WAYOUT.Since we finally understood that aara is the same with dal,dalje,i guess the other part of these words should look similar,lets see-
Dovliva-RRuge…uh very “similar” indeed.
So man spare me this crap and next time go find smth better,if you wan’t to sustain at least a decent debate.
Proves my point. His dynasty stems from the city of Constantinople. ROMANS, and more then likley Greek if not Latin. Epirus may have been ruled over via a seat in Albania. But yes thank you for proving my point. Skanderbeg's linnage is Greek via Constantinople which was mostly a Greek remnant of the Roman Empire which explains even why his seal was the double headed "Byzantine" Empire eagle.
No it proves nothing,since the one talking is Gjon Muzaka, (John Musachi)an Albanian lord,and also despot of epirus,and he is speaking about his family not Skanderbegs.so that was just another example of Albania and Epirus used together.
But here it is the part where he speaks about Scanderbeg.
Later, during the reign of Murad the Second, Scanderbeg arrived, the son of Lord John Castriota, who ruled over Matia (Mat) in Albania.
He then took to the road with a number of Albanians who were with him and, having arrived in Albania, entered Kruja. He presented the decree to the governor and the governor turned the place over to him. He thus became Lord of Kruja, a mighty fortress. All the rulers of Albania rejoiced at the event and Scanderbeg immediately became a Christian.
He then summoned the said rulers of Albania to a meeting at Alessio (Lezha) (9). Some came in person and others sent their representatives. Thus the said Scanderbeg became their commander-in-chief in Albania and each of them donated either men or money according to his capabilities. Other sons of these noblemen also served under his command, taking part in the war and defending their country.
Sure it does. In those times for example citizenship didn't mean the same as it did today. If a spaniard woman gave birth to her child in Moesia he was still ethnicly Spaniard but he would probably be refered to as Moesian.
I'm not seeing any valid arguements from either one of you, just wishful thinking and a lot of eye squinting.
Spania,Moesia?What are you talking about?
There’s not an North Albanian citizenship,but an Albanian citizenship.So If they say;born in North Albania,that’s a geographical indication,and again do you know where north Albania is and where is Greece?
However here you have more quotes from Gibbon.
Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 11 (1776)
John Castriot, the father of Scanderbeg,40 was the hereditary prince of a small district of Epirus or Albania, between the mountains and the Adriatic Sea.
The gates of Croya were opened to the royal mandate; and no sooner did he command the fortress than George Castriot dropped the mask of dissimulation, abjured the Prophet and the sultan, and proclaimed himself the avenger of his family and country. The names of religion and liberty provoked a general revolt: the Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince; and the Ottoman garrisons were indulged in the choice of martyrdom or baptism
His manners were popular; but his discipline was severe; and every superfluous vice was banished from his camp; his example strengthened his command; and under his conduct the Albanians were invincible in their own opinion and that of their enemies
At the head of sixty thousand horse and forty thousand Janizaries,44 Amurath entered Albania: he might ravage the open country, occupy the defenceless towns, convert the churches into moschs, circumcise the Christian youths, and punish with death his adult and obstinate captives, but the conquests of the sultan were confined to the petty fortress of Sfetigrade; and the garrison, invincible to his arms, was oppressed by a paltry artifice and a superstitious scruple.45 Amurath retired with shame and loss from the walls of Croya, the castle and residence of the Castriots; the march, the siege, the retreat, were harassed by a vexatious and almost invisible adversary;46 and the disappointment might tend to embitter, perhaps to shorten, the last days of the sultan.47 In the fulness of conquest, Mahomet the Second still felt at his bosom this domestic thorn; his lieutenants were permitted to negotiate a truce; and the Albanian prince may justly be praised as a firm and able champion of his national independence.
And by the way there's no need to judge my arguements,since none is trying to convince you.
First off I want to ask again because you seemed to miss it. Were Alexander the Great and Aristotle in your opinion Albanian? Simple question with a simple answer. I don't know why you can't answer it.
"Indeed he is saying that his soldiers ancestours fought with Aleksander and not that they are of their same stock.Also he calls his soldiers Albanians or Epirotes,clearly two names describing the same people.Albanians were often called Epirotes,in those times,probably even Greeks in this forun wiil confirm this to you."
No he turns to speak about the Epirotes and how they fought with Alexander. Not Albanians.
"Not the epirotes fighting with Skanderbeg for sure.You can find the descendents of his soldiers still today,in south Italy,and they speak an call themselves Albanian."
Ok? Your first sentence doesn't make sense. re-write it and then we can discuss.
"You used a racist remark,and you did it consciously."
I'd like to see how you can prove that. I said siptare because i thought it was just an alternate spelling of shqiptare. I don't care one way or another if you believe me.
"Hunyady can be what ever you wan’t,but Skanderbeg not only fought in Albania but also was an Albanian and that’s why the prince of Taranto called him “Giorgio Albanese” (the Albanian).I told you before Skanderbeg can’t be Greek just because you say so. If you have read it somewhere in hope in some book,just bring here the quote or the author and let discuss, about it.Just a tip i know at least one famous english author(not historian though),that called him Greek,but i doub't you have ever heard about him."
I personally don't really care, I just think his alignment with Albania is more due to circumstance then anything else. I don't think I ever denied he was Albanian more so then I denied he was only Albanian. I had read that his mother was Greek whatever that is worth.
"First of all none here is talking about you mothers sexual life"
You're the only one that brought it up >_>
"unless you are trying to provoke another reaction like the one GoldenBlood had some days ago,however i cordially ask you to choose your words better next time."
I didn't provoke anything. It is simply that some people can not express in words what their mind is thinking and then continuing on this path of inability simply smack the keyboard with big four lettered words. I can not be held accountable for their actions. Only my own. I had some questions I asked I think rather respectfully or at least respectfully where I didn't have any moderators hopping furious about what i had said in any particular shape form etc etc.
"But ok lets see again some of those Checenian words."
Thank you. That's all I had wanted.
"So man spare me this crap and next time go find smth better,if you wan’t to sustain at least a decent debate."
Keep the attitude to yourself next time.
"No it proves nothing,since the one talking is Gjon Muzaka, (John Musachi)an Albanian lord,and also despot of epirus,and he is speaking about his family not Skanderbegs.so that was just another example of Albania and Epirus used together."
Just because Epirus may have been ruled over via Albania does not make it one and the same thing. Just how Transilvania was ruled over from Hungary it does not make it Hungarian.
"Spania,Moesia?What are you talking about? "
Was called an example. I thought it was fairly simple.
"There’s not an North Albanian citizenship,but an Albanian citizenship.So If they say;born in North Albania,that’s a geographical indication,and again do you know where north Albania is and where is Greece?"
Not the epirotes fighting with Skanderbeg for sure.You can find the descendents of his soldiers still today,in south Italy,and they speak an call themselves Albanian.
In that sense, the Kurds who fought for Kemal were Turks, the Albanians who fought for the Turks are Turks as well, the Ionian Greeks who fought for the Persians were Persians and the list goes on.
Do not mix Epirotes with southern Albanians and maybe you should ask them yourself what they are: Epirote youth central
They had 2 choices: Be enslaved or fight with a man who cared about the freedom of the area and all its people no matter their ethnic background.
Not the epirotes fighting with Skanderbeg for sure.You can find the descendents of his soldiers still today,in south Italy,and they speak an call themselves Albanian.
In that sense, the Kurds who fought for Kemal were Turks, the Albanians who fought for the Turks are Turks as well, the Ionian Greeks who fought for the Persians were Persians and the list goes on.
Do not mix Epirotes with southern Albanians and maybe you should ask them yourself what they are: Epirote youth central
They had 2 choices: Be enslaved or fight with a man who cared about the freedom of the area and all its people no matter their ethnic background.
And the Albanians that fought with Greeks,were Greeks i bet.Ill mix the epirotes with Albanians all day long Flipper,Scandrbeg did,so why shouldn't i?
I already said it and i can repeat it again,in medieval terms,Albanians and epirotes where often the same thing.
I don't have to ask things to people that call themselves Greeks for money.
Me too Loled... Seems that we have one more FYROM case here. I wouldn't like to see the reaction of an Epirotes, reading what you just said but anyway. In any case, since you believe what you say, you seem to spread very bad rumours about other countrymen of yours... You actually say that you can pay them to be anything... Good one.
Me too Loled... Seems that we have one more FYROM case here. I wouldn't like to see the reaction of an Epirotes, reading what you just said but anyway. In any case, since you believe what you say, you seem to spread very bad rumours about other countrymen of yours... You actually say that you can pay them to be anything... Good one.
Seems to me that we have also a Greek case here.
Its true we have a lot a complexes dear Flipper like every other balkan nation but not the one of calling ourselveswith handsome ancient names.We don’t call ourselves Epirotes,Illyrians or Dardanians or even Albanians.For us,our 200 old years name Shqipetar is more than enough,and we just laugh when we seemodern Macedonians,fighting with modern Greeks,for a name or the new selfmade Epirotes(the guys in that website) asking for half of our territory.
However I repeat Skanderbeg,did it,not,me,he was called Epirotarum princep,he personally admitted that all his soldiers were epirotes,even the league of the Albanian lords,later known as Albanian was named The Epirotic league.Well I f you have any proof that Skanderbeg,had Greek soldiers and he brought them in his Italian campaign, or that he was Greek,or that the participants of the league were instead Greek nobles,hence the name epirot,then please bring us these evidences,and stop throwing hot air with veiled nationalistic posts.
Epirus have a long history,and it wasn’t exclusively Greek,if you are not able to admit it then sorry in my eyes you are not better than your Macedonian neighbours.
And who is the real Epirote Vasil Bollano(in the photo),the Albanian from Tepelena self-declared Greek 10 years ago and that now is seeking independence for his adoptive village(Himara)?
Ps.Indeed you are paying them for being nothing,because for me people changing their identity for a monthly income of 300 euro,are indeed nothing.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum