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R_AK47
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Topic: Holy Relics Posted: 25-Jan-2006 at 12:59 |
I am searching for history, current locations, origins, and authenticity of the many holy relics associated with Christianity. In particular, I am searching for large pieces of the true cross. I posted a similiar question in the questions and answers forum a while back, before registering with this forum. I posted this time in the medieval forum as most of these relics were first described during medieval times.
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R_AK47
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 21:23 |
I guess no one here cares about relics much.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 26-Jan-2006 at 23:05 |
Well the True Cross was supposedly captured at Constantinople by the Crusaders in 1204 and subsequently divided up. Pieces of it were even included as part of the French crown jewels. But there are several such stories about the True Cross being recovered and each is pretty dubious.
The largest explosion of relics came in the aftermath of the 1204 Crusade, when the relics horded by Byzantium became suddenly available to the West. Every "relic" normally has several different versions of it somewhere, bitterly held up as the "original" by its owners. The Papacy claims to have a piece of it, I saw the bit of wood on TV actually. Scientists want to test it, but the Papacy predictably refused.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 02:17 |
The last thing I heard of the True Cross, the Romans/Byzantines had
recaptured it from the Persians in 627. I think I'm a bit out of date.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 03:26 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
The last thing I heard of the True Cross, the Romans/Byzantines had
recaptured it from the Persians in 627. I think I'm a bit out of date.
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Supposedly Heraclius removed it after the Arab conquests and it remained in Constantinople until 1204.
As I said there were many attempts through history to lay claim to
possessing the True Cross. In the First Crusade a certain peasant
claimed to dig it up under a church in Antioch and they then carried it
into battle to defeat the Turk/Arab enemies besieging them. When the
man and his cross were later put to a trial by fire "walking between
burning firebrands", the cross burnt to a cinder and the man himself
later died from the ordeal.
Again, I am inclined to believe the True Cross was probably discarded/
used as firewood/ used to make a table or something mundane like that
after Christ was taken off it. Maybe they used it for other
crucifixions until it got too smelly or something........ who knows.
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Periander
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 04:28 |
Sts Constantine and Helen, did find the Crucifix used to hang Jesus Christ. It was captured by the Arabs (I think it was the Persians, however) and yes, as you state Constantine XI, it was recaptured by Heraclius. Unfortunately, I am not too familiar with what became of it afterwards. I do know that a select few of the monasteries on Mount Athos, for example, do have small portions of it. Again, I am not too sure how many remnants of it made it to the West.
As regards other relics, R_AK47, your best bet would be monasteries all over Europe. I can really only vouch for Greek Orthodox monasteries though.
Can I ask, what are your reasons for this interest?
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NikeBG
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 04:30 |
Actually, I have one question: What exactly is the real cross? Because the common idea is two planks with the + form. But did the Romans really use two planks? Because I've also heard the suggestion that they actually used only one plank, which they put horizontally upon a normal standing tree.
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Periander
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 04:44 |
@NikeBG I too have heard of this theorem, but three points stand out: a) the Theology of the Cross which has it that Jesus as Man and God (=Θεάνθρωπο` 2; ) comes down from heaven to save Man and then raises Man to Resurrection and the horizontal pylon symbolising God's love for Man (read humanity when I state "Man"). b) St Helen and the iconographic depiction of the Cross, the famous Feast of the "Raising of the Cross" is always shown as a "cross" and not as a singular plank. c) If the Romans used a singluar plank, then maybe they were "sensitive" to Jewish custom (not wishing to inflame them, etc.) and were not want to utilising something which may have caused an upset populace. Then again, there is nothing to say that even if the Romans did use a singular plank, that they did not use a more extreme form of torture. In case, the Romans were not unknown for their usage of the cross as a joint-planked utensil. St Andrew in Patra was crucified on a cross... as exeplified by the letter "X". St Peter when crucified in Rome, was hung upside down. If you are asking for archaeological evidence, I am sure one of the other guys will be of better use here
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Jhangora
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 04:58 |
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Jai Badri Vishal
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R_AK47
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 23:14 |
Originally posted by Origen
Can I ask, what are your reasons for this interest?
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Because those who possess the relics are destined for honor and glory.
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Maju
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Posted: 27-Jan-2006 at 23:51 |
Originally posted by R_AK47
Originally posted by Origen
Can I ask, what are your reasons for this interest?
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Because those who possess the relics are destined for honor and glory. |
Bah, that's a futile myth! Just look at the destiny of the French dynasty.
I find you a little superstitious.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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R_AK47
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 00:01 |
[/QUOTE] I find you a little superstitious. [/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps a little. I would very much like to have some of these relics.
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Jhangora
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 00:22 |
Originally posted by R_AK47
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I find you a little superstitious. [/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps a little. I would very much like to have some of these relics.
[/QUOTE]
You must be a billionaire R_AK47.
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Jai Badri Vishal
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Jhangora
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 00:27 |
Saint Francis Xavier Goa.
The body of the saint is still enshrined at Goa in the church which formerly belonged to the Society. In 1614 by order of Claudius Acquaviva, General of the Society of Jesus, the right arm was severed at the elbow and conveyed to Rome, where the present altar was erected to receive it in the church of the Gesu.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06233b.htm
Hey Maju got some information for you.Saint Francis Xavier was a Basque.
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Jai Badri Vishal
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Maju
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 03:41 |
Originally posted by Jhangora
Saint Francis Xavier Goa.
The body of the saint is still enshrined at Goa in the church which formerly belonged to the Society. In 1614 by order of Claudius Acquaviva, General of the Society of Jesus,
the right arm was severed at the elbow and conveyed to Rome, where the
present altar was erected to receive it in the church of the Gesu.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06233b.htm
Hey Maju got some information for you.Saint Francis Xavier was a Basque. |
I know. I studied at a Jesuit school.
They promoted the myth that his body was miraculously incorrupt before
the arm was severed and that after it it's been slowly decaying, is
that true?
Xabier is probably a deformation of Etxeberri (new home) a common Basque surname in its original form.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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R_AK47
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 13:41 |
What about this mana water I hear of that is oozing from the bones of Saint Nicholas? Anyone have any info on that?
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Jhangora
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Posted: 28-Jan-2006 at 15:31 |
They promoted the myth that his body was miraculously incorrupt before the arm was severed and that after it it's been slowly decaying, is that true?
Well the arm was severed nearly 400 years ago and the body is still there.I guess it must be decaying veeeeeeeeeeeeery slowly.
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Jai Badri Vishal
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R_AK47
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 00:46 |
How big was the piece of the True Cross lost at Hattin (I was under the impression that it was a large piece) and what became of it? Are there any ways to acquire small pieces of it?
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Maju
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 03:25 |
Originally posted by Origen
In case, the Romans were not unknown for their
usage of the cross as a joint-planked utensil. St Andrew in Patra was
crucified on a cross... as exeplified by the letter "X". St Peter when
crucified in Rome, was hung upside down.
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Ouch! That's not history: it's Christian mythology. Romans did use
crosses for long as main form of capital punishment but the Christian
references are just that "saint making myths", at least in most cases.
A much better example is the mass crucifixion of the Spartakist rebels.
It wasn't used only for Christians, actually Christians wer fed to the
lions preferably.
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NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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Yiannis
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Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 05:12 |
Originally posted by R_AK47
How big was the piece of the True Cross lost at Hattin (I was under the impression that it was a large piece) and what became of it? Are there any ways to acquire small pieces of it?
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It's been calculated that if all the alleged pieces of the Cross existing today were true, they would be enough to form a small forest
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