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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Topic: Islamic Invasion Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 13:30 |
More than fourteen centuries ago, Islamic armies attacked neighbouring countries and successfully conquered most of them, including Iran, but there is a word in the Quran which makes me mad about this invasion!
Surat An-Nisa, Ayat 24:
All married women are forbidden unto you except
What will you do, if an invader says it about your mother or wife?! Won't you fight against him with all means?
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Seko
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Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 13:42 |
Here are full interpretations:
4:24 |
Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you. These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise. |
Now the whole thing comes into a clearer perspective when you take in the previous ayat from this sura. Allah is telling the believers to respect rights of the orphans and of women (divorce, war etc)
and this:
4:19 |
O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit the women by force, nor that you become harsh with them to take away some of what you have given them, unless they commit a clear lewdness. And live with them in kindness. If you dislike them, then perhaps you may dislike something and God makes in it much good.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 14:55 |
Great job, seko. Thanks.
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ok ge
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 01:28 |
I think Seko has addressed the issue very well and very brief. I dont think any better explaination can be added.
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D.J. Kaufman
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 02:25 |
Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you |
nice joke! Do you have a new Quran?
Don't fool yourself, we all know what "ma malakat" means!
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azimuth
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 02:31 |
ok Cyrus which part is it that makes you angry?
i didnt understand what is it you mean or you are angry form??
explain more please
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 05:41 |
This part that Quran obviously allows muslims to capture and rape non-muslim women!
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azimuth
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 06:16 |
Aayah 24?
this Aayah isn't about allowing muslims to capture and rape non-muslim women !
as per the english transilation i got it says:
[24] Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you: except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property, desiring chastity, not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, ye agree mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise
and from Tafseer Al Qurtubi about the meaning of "Malakat Aymanukum" , Malakat Aymanukum means "those who you have their contract" by marriage or by buying as in slaves.
note that people whos women are lost in a battel are to be considered slaves they can buy and sell them, that was the rule of the wars of those days, same happened to the daughter of Yazdajard III who was sold as slave.
but womens whos husbands lost in a battel and still with that husband is considered slave BUT forbidden to have sex with that she is still married.
so its a littel complicated to see which one is allowed and which one isn't.
which means womens who are you married to and women who you bought are the only women you can have sex with, other than that is considered Zina.
so this Aayah came for the people after the battel of Uhud and it was mostly about that era, and obviously not applicable to todays wars i guess.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 07:53 |
Thanks for your good reply!
it was mostly about that era, and obviously not applicable to todays
Therefore you believe that muslims shouldn't follow the Quran's laws blindly!
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azimuth
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 09:03 |
well laws from the Quran aren't always taken directly as it was mentioned, before applying it muslims should first see when this Aayah came and in what occation and what was the reason for it.
from that we can judge if it apply or not or if it is even similar to anything happining now.
and yes it is not applied for these days because wars now are different from that time, and "sabayah" which means war slaves are long gone.
so from that Aayah i think its mostly about forbiding to have sex with any woman whos not your wife.
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ok ge
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 10:29 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
This part that Quran obviously allows muslims to capture and rape non-muslim women! |
Believing that the Ayat means raping non-Muslim women is just way beyond logic. How can the prophet and his Caliphs set a code of war conduct and advice for not even not cutting a tree, but allowing for raping non-Muslim women!
Plus such interpetation would not come to the human mind, I haven't seen that interpetation by any respected scholar.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Ahmed The Fighter
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 11:16 |
Agree with you Azimuth except one thing
so this Aayah came for the people after the battel of Uhud and it was mostly about that era, and obviously not applicable to todays wars i guess.
Prove please.
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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
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ok ge
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 11:34 |
In the battle of Uhud, the Muslims retreated. So obviously they didn't win and conquer and had non-Muslim ladies captured.
And no, what applies in the past applies today except it is surrounding a specific occasion and it is not an instruction.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
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azimuth
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 12:04 |
ops sorry it was Hunain not Uhud.
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Guests
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 15:11 |
Obviously guys the notion of "Jihad" is a savage concept. Muslim's dream is to see one day a whole islamic world. Have some tolerance and let people share their own religion.
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ok ge
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 15:14 |
Originally posted by Magavan spirit
Obviously guys the notion of "Jihad" is a savage concept. Muslim's dream is to see one day a whole islamic world. Have some tolerance and let people share their own religion. |
Welcome to the forum. Just try to write something useful next time, we have enough idiots
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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
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Miller
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 17:05 |
Originally posted by azimuth
that was the rule of the wars of those days
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You make it sound this was written by people of that time creating laws based on the context of their own time. Don't forget this is god speaking to people. God is not going to tell people do something that is wrong because tradition of that time period was so and people he was talking to were used to it.
This kind of sexual privilege for people that bring the message it not unique to Islam and is present in other religions. Remember David Koresh. God told him that if he desired he can have anyone else's wife which is very similar to what god told Muhammad
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ok ge
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Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 17:13 |
Originally posted by Miller
This kind of sexual privilege for people that bring the message it not unique to Islam and is present in other religions. Remember David Koresh. God told him that if he desired he can have anyone else's wife which is very similar to what god told Muhammad |
Ok, work your butt finding evidance and support for your statement above. At least Cyrus posted his concern and it was discussed.
Edited by ok ge
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D.J. Kaufman
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Ahmed The Fighter
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Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 02:44 |
Originally posted by Magavan spirit
Obviously guys the notion of "Jihad" is a savage concept. Muslim's dream is to see one day a whole islamic world. Have some tolerance and let people share their own religion.
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What you are talking about,I think you understood Jihad like Western do.
In Islam we own the tolerance .
There are many kind of Jihad please explain which one.
Prophet Muhammed said:-
the greatest Jihad is conquest yourself.
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"May the eyes of cowards never sleep"
Khalid Bin Walid
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Guests
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Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 05:17 |
Ahmed stop joking, U can not fool an Iranian. You know that ur first muslim purpose is to make an Islamic Word. Stop with ur idiot philosophy about Jihad, everybody know the true.
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