Who was the best Mongol general?

I read a thread about Subutai and pose the question:

Is the highly acclaimed Subutai the best Mongol general?

Who, in your opinion, is the best Mongol commander?

Subutai's fame arised mainly from the European campaign led in name by Batu Khan.  Despite the brutality of Mongol forces, one cannot deny Subutai's brillance in manuvering his troops and using hit and run tactics.

Yet, the second European campaign occurred after Genghis Khan's death.  Was Subutai Genghis Khan's top general?  He was one of the best, but was he the best?

The poll does not include Genghis Khan and other Mongol rulers, unless the Mongol ruler, such as Batu, Hulegu, and Kublai, participated in campaigns prior to or during his rule.

I personally vote Jebe (just to spite Subutai admirers in Europe and beyond!)

Oh, please do not say Tamerlane because he is only a self-acclaimed Mongol!  He does not count in this poll.

Edited by poirot

TO Tobodai:

Yes, you make a good point about K. and earlier campaigns.  However, Jebe was with Subutai during the K. campaigns and the march into Kipchak territory.  Subutai was more memorable because of the European campaign and because he lived longer.  Subutai's brother Jeleme was equally brave and brilliant.  Subutai was one of Genghis Khan's trusted and brave Four Hounds: Subutai, Jeleme, Kubulei, and Jebe.  Other great generals under Genghis were the Four Stallions: Muquali, Borrachu, Borrahu, and Chilaowen.

Genghis Khan's left and righthand commanders of ten thousands were Borrachu and Muquali.  In terms of seniority, Borrachu and Jeleme were ranked as high as Subutai.  In terms of ability, Muquali, Jebe, and Subutai were equally brillant.

Oh, forgot to include Subutai's sons and grandson Achu, all brillant generals.

Edited by poirot

Muqali was the General who carried out operations against the Jin Empire after Chingiz himself got bored of fighting there and wanted to invade west instead. He was reasonably successful. Bayan was one of Hulegu's lieutenants. After Hulegu's campiagn, he went East and became an important commander to Kublai. His victories in China were imporant in brining the region under Mongol rule.

Of those in the List, I think Subedei was the greatest, since he had the most distinguished career. The campiagn towards europe is probably the second greatest campaign in history, second only to Alexander's. Needless to say, he also had a distinguished career in the Khwarezmian/kalkha campaign, and also in China as well.

The Second greatest is probably Jebe, who had as good of a career as Subedei, until he died on the kalkha campaign. Following him, I would say, is Hulegu. The main problem with Hulegu is that he is improperly blamed for the defeat at Ain Jalut. Even though he didn't even command the Mongol army there. More severely though, was the fact that during his civil war against Berke Khan, he lost most of his men trying to cross a frozen river to invade the Golden Horde.

Ive never heard of kaidu and guo kan, who are they, wich victorys do they have?

Didnt jebe go out hunting on the reconaisance mission agaisnt russia and was late to the metting point 2 weeks late?

wasn't bayan  hun?

I have other question: Borchu could be considered as a general or simply as the main advisor of Genghis Khan?