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The strongest army before the hand held gun

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The strongest army before the hand held gun
    Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 06:00

So,wich one?

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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 06:06
This topic was discussed before.The Mongols I think...
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  Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 06:41
 No army is invincible, if it was that empire would still be going, all armies have strenghs and weaknesses
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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 08:11

Originally posted by John the Kern

 No army is invincible, if it was that empire would still be going, all armies have strenghs and weaknesses

Just give a name

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 08:51
any army under the lead of zugeliang

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 10:17

Personally I'd go for an English 100 Years War army. Fully professional voluntary soldier, the finest infantry around and devasting fire power.

Could eat a mongol army for breakfast. More accurate bows, longer range bows and shooting at mounted targets. Mongol horse archers would be cut to shreds before even in effective range. And if by some miracle their heavy cavalry managed to close the tight billman phalanx would make easy pickings of them.

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 10:58
would go for the army that conquered stanbul.(Constantinople)The finest army of it's time;Janissaries,Sipahis,great cannons,ships.... All diciplined and dedicated to the Sultan.

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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 14:00
Originally posted by Paul

Personally I'd go for an English 100 Years War army. Fully professional voluntary soldier, the finest infantry around and devasting fire power.

Could eat a mongol army for breakfast. More accurate bows, longer range bows and shooting at mounted targets. Mongol horse archers would be cut to shreds before even in effective range. And if by some miracle their heavy cavalry managed to close the tight billman phalanx would make easy pickings of them.

Did they have knights? Are billmen armed with halberds or pikes?

 

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 16:05

I think it more of a halberd, than a pike.

I would go with the passage of English 100 Years War Army or Catalan Company, you know that knights with Almuagavears (I know i spelled that wrong) were devastating.

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 18:37

Originally posted by Gazi

Originally posted by Paul

Personally I'd go for an English 100 Years War army. Fully professional voluntary soldier, the finest infantry around and devasting fire power.

Could eat a mongol army for breakfast. More accurate bows, longer range bows and shooting at mounted targets. Mongol horse archers would be cut to shreds before even in effective range. And if by some miracle their heavy cavalry managed to close the tight billman phalanx would make easy pickings of them.

Did they have knights? Are billmen armed with halberds or pikes?

 

 

Yes they had knights. They generally fought dismounted to stop them from impetuously charging the enemy and making it impossible for the longbows to fire for fear of hitting their own men.

Most defeats of European armies by Arab or Mongol armies were caused by the horse archers shooting the knights and causing them to impetuously charge. When they were exaughsted from chasing the horse archers and cut off from their own army, the Mongol/Arab heavy cavalry would come in and finish them. So English armies dismounted their knights to stop this from happening.

 

Billman

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  Quote white dragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 19:58
i believe what a billman fights with is probably called a "bill"
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  Quote Subotei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 22:07

lol english bows more accurate and longer ranged than mongolian composite bow,and u said it urself the english are shooting at moving tagets while mongols would be shooting at a stationary target,english armies during 100yr war were small and pathetic compared to mongol or chinese armies,

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 22:39

The French knights at Agincourt and Crecy were moving targets, it didn't do them much good. 10,000 longbowmen can launch 100,000 arrows per minute. It would be like being in a heavy shower and hoping every single raindrop misses you.

At the battle of Agincourt 7,000 English beat 40,000 French. 10,000+ French dead, 30+ English dead. At the Battle of Towton there were 60,000 English present. Plenty to take out a couple of hundred thousand Mongols?

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 23:17
if ont the proper terrain any steppe cavalry could beat the English by simply using superior mobility to cut off their supply lines and harass them into a position where they would either be compromised or starve to death.  Mobility is the winner of battles.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 23:48

Supply indeed would be a problem. A good reason for an English army not to go to the middle east or the steppes but stick to Europe where it can fortify it's supply line with wooden forts and by taking castles and walled towns. And if things got desperate live of the land from farms, villages and towns. As Napoleon did.

Then again Richard I took an army to Jerusalem and kept then supplied. And Alexander found himself with no supply lines whatsoever and made it to Alexandria living off the land, simply by careful planning of his route via major towns nd cities.

The Mongols themselves would suffer from terrible supply problems in Europe. The towns being fortified, so they would need to seige them to get their supplies. They couldn't bypass castles either, or they'd lose their own supply line so would find themselves having to siege every castle they came across. Something they would find very difficult.

 

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 04:41

To my knowledge, the Mongol army was one of the most sufficient armies in the sense of supplies aswell. They were far more successful at living off land than any European army. Their horses didn't need that much supplies, food, the soldiers could drink their horses blood for nutrition, and were extremely skilled at keeping the food from getting bad. They didn't need such suplly lines as modern European armies did if caught in a siege. And therefore i say that a Mongol army would stand a siege many times longer then a European one.

And sieging castles in Europe wouldn't be that much of a problem in Europe, they already had sieged and taken half of the continents castles and forts.

And yes, just standing and shooting at Mongol cavalry with longbows would not mow them down as was said. The cavalry would rather retreat and just ride behind them before the pikemen could blink and attack bowmen with a rear attack or something strategic like that, as their speed was superior to anything seen before amongst armies in Europe. And also, as far as i have read over and over on the internet, the Mongol composite bow had atleast a plus 50 yard difference, sometimes 100 yard difference to the range of the Brittish longbow.

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 08:07

The real difference between the Asiatic composite bow and th longbow is not so much range but deteriation of accuracy. The Asiatic is actually much more advanced than the longbow which has existed viirtually uncanged since pre-historic times. But the Asiatic is really only a makeshift solution of the problem lack of good trees.

The longbow as we know stays true at long ranges, a unit of men at 200m is easily within it's capacity. This is the reason it's an infantry weapon, to fire accurately at that sort of range a steady platform is required. The Asiatic long was only accurate up to about 60 metres, after 60 metres the accuracy curve starts to drop off. Horses are not steady platforms, so any sort of long range shooting not possible anyway.

English armies of the day tended either to deploy on top of hills, giving them a 360 degree round view. On poor quality or boggy terrain that's extremly difficult to move across, disordering infantry and making cavalry ineffective or positions where they could anchor themselves to a piece of impenetrable terrain the opponent couldn't get around.

For an opponent cavalry to ride around behind it take minutes, for a longbow unit to about face takes seconds.

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 09:56
Originally posted by Paul

At the Battle of Towton there were 60,000 English present. Plenty to take out a couple of hundred thousand Mongols?

No



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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 13:04
Yes, if they can fir 600,000 arrows per minute... i'd say that shields would be not enough... only problem is that english didnt attack mongols... And if a horse is down the mongol is a idiot...
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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 13:56

Originally posted by rider

Yes, if they can fir 600,000 arrows per minute... i'd say that shields would be not enough... only problem is that english didnt attack mongols... And if a horse is down the mongol is a idiot...

As I said before a nomad without a horse is like a bird without wings.

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