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Pseudo-science and piramidiotism
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Perun View Drop Down
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Posts: 27 		  Quote Perun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pseudo-science and piramidiotism
    Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 13:01
One of the biggest problems in historical science is rise of so called "alternative" historians that claim some sensational findings.
One among such events happened in my home country Bosnia-Herzegovina. One, Texas based Bosnian "alternative" historians claims that he found stone pyramids in Central Bosnia. Ignorance and illiteracy of people helped him to gain a huge support from local authorities. Nowadays they "excavate" (with bulldozers) these hills, ruining real historical sites nearby.
Even complaints from bosnian and international scholars cannot stop this.
Everything is surrounded with conspiracy theories (freemasons, UFO's, Templar knights, Atlantis, Lemuria, Mayan calendar...).  It is becoming Mecca of New Age fanatics and charlatans.
A good term for this idiocy is pyramidiotism:
"Even in modern times when people, one would think, should know better, the Great Pyramid of Giza has proved a fertile field for fantasy. The people who do not know better are the Pyramid mystics, who believe that the Great Pyramid is a gigantic prophecy in stone, built by a group of ancient adepts in magic. Egyptologists sometimes uncharitably refer to this group as 'Pyramidiots,' but the school continues to flourish despite scholarly anathemas" (source:Wikipedia)
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 14:12
I actually quite support pseudo archaeology. I think it serves a positive purpose.
 
First of all archaeology, even by scientific standards is poor about making itself accessable to anyone but other archaeologists. Many people (especially children) are drawn into mainstream archaeology by first getting interest by a highly accessable crank theory. Many of the world best scientists started their careers as cranks inone disipline or another.
 
Also occaisionally the cranks theories turn out to be true, or at least act as an inspitration for another idea that overturns a scientific idea. Look at Aquatic Ape Theory, 20 years ago up their with UFO's and Pyramidology, now the mainstream scientific theory.
 
 


Edited by Paul - 16-Aug-2007 at 14:14
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Posts: 27 		  Quote Perun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 14:35
Originally posted by Paul

Many people (especially children) are drawn into mainstream archaeology by first getting interest by a highly accessable crank theory. Many of the world best scientists started their careers as cranks inone disipline or another.
 
 
I agree on this line. I also got interested into history through pseudo-scientific mystery theories. Easter isles, pyramids, UFO, Yeti, Bigfoot, etc.
I still like these things but I am also aware that there are methods that are used when conducting scientific research. So you might have an idea about Atlantis, but you must explore it in a proper way.
Most of the pseudo-scholars like Daniken, Castaneda, Arguelles trigger our mind, but also mislead us.
Other problem is this sensationalism combined with national-romanticism, process of mystifying some nation's past (like in Bosnia). My country has its own, indeed very interesting past, so it is not needed to create some artificial "magnificent history". In this case it is just robbing of one pour country, that still didn't recover from terrible war. This guy, Semir Osmanagic, self-claimed pyramids expert, acts like some kind of Messiah that is supposed to bring light into our country's darkness.
And everyone supports him, government give him huge amounts of money, while institutions, museums and archives lack any funds for descent work.
That is really a sad issue...Dead
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 15:05
I too got into archaeology through a crank myth, the celts. Then graduated onto reading the archeaology that disproved them.
 
Crank theorists like Chapman and Von Dannigan are at worst 'exploiting' gullible people for a trivial sum of money. though I tend to think 'entertaining' would be a better word.
 
When governments get into pseudo histories I agree it becomes seriously bad, and somewhere some people become victims. Look at Palestine and those ridiculous bible myths of Solomon and David's non-existant city, giving Israelis the right to displace people from their homes. The national museum of Israel denies the city existed, the government declares its existence must be taught in schools.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Paul - 16-Aug-2007 at 15:13
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 15:43
I also got interested in the local history of Incas and other Amerindians by listening to the marvelous histories of the lost knowledge of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. And also the superman-tales talk about the conquistadors of the Americas, and theirs golden cities. Without magical histories, thing would be kind of boring for kids.
 
I still love legends though, but I preffer actual legends of native peoples rather than modern inventions.
 
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 19:05
Osmanagic is a promoter and a crank,  That does not invalidate that which he has found.  Satalite infrared scans show the existence of a large man made complex in the Visoko valley.  15,000 years old?  Thats Osmanagic's promoter side coming out.  The real damage people like him do is evident in your post.  Your ignoring the very real fact that there is something very real there.  As long as Osmanagic is involved no one will take the site seriously.
 
BTW, bulldozers are used in excavations quite commonly.  The days of bucket and shovel, except for the last three feet or so, are long gone, victim of labor costs and time.  


Edited by red clay - 16-Aug-2007 at 19:14
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 27 		  Quote Perun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 20:32
Originally posted by red clay

Osmanagic is a promoter and a crank,  That does not invalidate that which he has found.  Satalite infrared scans show the existence of a large man made complex in the Visoko valley. 
 
As you might know Visoko valley was inhabited since prehistory. Nearby is site Okoliste that seems to be the key for understanding crossroads of Mediterraenean and Continental prehistoric cultures (http://www.uni-kiel.de/ufg/projekte_ug/Okoliste/okoliste.htm).
It was also important Roman colony in Central Bosnia. At the end it was a true heart of Bosnian medieval kingdom, with Visoko as capital city. Obviously, it is the place where you by excavation can find different cultural layers.
Osmanagic claims that he found 15 000 (first it was 25 000) years old pyramid that belonged to some superior civilization that was a craddle of continental cultures. It got its knowledge from Atlantis. pyramids were collectors of cosmic energy. He claims that we need to dig out Great Sun Pyramid before 2012., because Mayan calendar predicts Armageddon it this year. Our only hope is release of that energy from the pyramid.
 
What I wanted to say is, that archaeological circus is not funny anymore. Bulldozers they use destroy artifacts that lay in the upper layers of soil. He also destroys local medieval gravestones (called stecak), that are somethin that signifies Bosnia. He thinks they are rocks from the pyramids.
 
You can read some relevant commentaries here:
 
 
 
Archaeology magazine -
 
 
The Chronicle of Higher Education -
 
LiveScience -
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 23:19
Those links are old.  Since then some things have been established, that it is man made, that there is a surrounding complex.  The only thing I'm waiting to see is a credible, sound scientific dating.  I do know there are poeple working in on it.  But I would think they would wait until "the Oz" goes away.  Which eventually he will.
Either way, this will be argued forever.  Too many political and cultural forces working in that region still.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 1929 		  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 02:45
Many people (especially children) are drawn into mainstream archaeology by first getting interest by a highly accessable crank theory. Many of the world best scientists started their careers as cranks inone disipline or another.
 
Yes, and people that I call - "TV Historians" don't exactly help. People like Dan Crushank and Time commanders, who skim the surface of various areas and just highlight the "Mysteries" within them.
 
Perun, you have my full sympathy. I really really can't stand these wacko conspiracy theorists. I was friends with one once - he said that the entire British government was collaborating together as a fascist party. ....After that, I didn't have much to do with him anymore....
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Posts: 27 		  Quote Perun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 12:04
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

Perun, you have my full sympathy. I really really can't stand these wacko conspiracy theorists. I was friends with one once - he said that the entire British government was collaborating together as a fascist party. ....After that, I didn't have much to do with him anymore....
 
Thanks.
This guy, Osmanagic, also has some lunatic ideas. He says that Shakespear didn't write his dramas, but sir Francis Bacon who was "the Great Master of Freemason Lodge of England". So, Shakespear's works were in fact, freemason code books. Ancient knowledge that only freemasons can understand nowadays.
Also, he claims that Hitler never commited suicide. It was his look-alike. Hitler was saved and transported on a ship to the Southern Atlantic. Most of the fleet surrendered in Buenos Aires, but some of scientists together with Hitler went to South Pole. There they discovered elixir of life, and started preparing a huge army to conquer the world...
LOL
 
And that is the guy that tries to dicover the remnants of some lost civilization. Unbelievable...
 
 
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Posts: 429 		  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 19:27
Originally posted by Paul

I too got into archaeology througha crank myth, the celts. Then graduated onto reading the archeaology that disproved them.
I was wondering about the Celts since I read this, but since it was off-topic,before asking my question, I was waiting untill the thread calms down and stops being active.
So the Celts are a crank myth? Does the archaeology disprove the celtic culture, language ...etc? Is any thing that is called Celtic, simply a creation of imagination? Can you please explain more.
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Posts: 27 		  Quote Perun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2007 at 17:54

It is hard to speak about Celts, Germans, Slavs as some common groups. There were several variations among different tribes. But we can for sure use this term in describing cultural definitions. Tribes of Poland, Balkans and Russia shared many religious and cultural wievpoints. Same is with Celtic tribes of British Isles, Gaul, Danube region, Panonia or Galatia in todays Turkey...

This question is not so off-topic. We can talk also about national romantism as pseudo-scientific approach to history.
I wanted to point out that we should be very careful with historical data. Some "magnificent" theories about Atlantis, Lemmuria and "war of the pre-historic super-civilizations" can intrigue our mind but shouldn't endanger science...
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 04:57
Having done a course of Celtic Studies I would love to find out what Paul means by the Celts as being a "crank myth". Come on Paul, share what you mean with us, we are all wondering.

I can only guess but one myth is how the Celts built Stonehenge. Wrong time, wrong culture! Stonehenge was way too early and during that time cultures we don't even know about rose and fell across Europe. There was a lot of things going on down around the Mediterranean basin, like building pyramids, cities having huge wars of conquest and all that.

The Celts were a mixed bunch that rose from the European melting pot as a confederation of ruling tribes that emerged after 1000 BC, the ancient world Dark Ages. They were mainly agriculturalists and set up a cowboy culture. They traded livestock, hides and related products with already established nations.

There certainly have been a truckload of silly stories about the "Druids", Julius Caesar began the nonsense by naming their priests as Druids. The name had never been used before yet caught the public imagination ever since. The thing  is how truthful Caesar was. One must remember he got impeached by the Roman Senate for his human rights abuses in Gaul.
There is a whole list of common misconceptions, but we need to know what is really meant here or go off on the wrong track.
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Posts: 429 		  Quote omshanti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 10:07
Thank you so much, Perun and Elenos.
I would really appreciate it if more people gave their opinions regarding what Paul wrote about the Celts (here and in the pre-Celtic Europe thread). Also opinions on what Perun suggested in the second half of his post.


Edited by omshanti - 29-Aug-2007 at 10:22
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Posts: 27 		  Quote Perun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 10:39
There are so many interesting historical enigmas that deserve to be called mysteries. But on the other hand not every problem is a mystery. We obviously don't know much things about some topics, like for example builders of Easter Isles' monuments, collapse of early Indian civilizations (Mohenjo Darro and Harrapa), etc.
But we must investigate them in some proper manner, not by using crystal skulls, cosmic energy modifiers, amulets, psychics, etc.
There are several methods that are used with scientific approach.
When pseudo-scientists destroy historical monuments trying to find out something sensational that becomes serious...
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 18:42
Originally posted by Perun

There are so many interesting historical enigmas that deserve to be called mysteries. But on the other hand not every problem is a mystery. We obviously don't know much things about some topics, like for example builders of Easter Isles' monuments, collapse of early Indian civilizations (Mohenjo Darro and Harrapa), etc.
But we must investigate them in some proper manner, not by using crystal skulls, cosmic energy modifiers, amulets, psychics, etc.
There are several methods that are used with scientific approach.
When pseudo-scientists destroy historical monuments trying to find out something sensational that becomes serious...
 
 
 
I too have had several courses in Celtic studies.  The Celts are a well researched, well documented culture.  Trying to relegate them to the realm of pseudo history by a few vague references to crystal skulls and Atlantis [how you make that jump, I don't know] will only cut it for the uninformed.  You haven't shown me one credible peer reviewed source to support your hypothesis.  And to save you some effort, the Hall of the Mattzi's is not in the credibility column. 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 29-Aug-2007 at 22:30
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 20:02
Bravo red clay! You put the situation very well. The Celtic fight against Roman expansion lasted for two hundred years in Europe. How on earth anyone can deny the Celts existed I don't know. That would make Julius Caesar a fraud. (as if he didn't exist!).  The thing is I would like to know where these people are coming from and the sources where they get their crippled information from..

Is there some latest occult book I should know about that denies Europeans ever existed at all? Sounds like fun. I know of a relatively recent book that claims a Chinese fleet of junks discovered the world in 1421 isn't it? The English author has been richly rewarded by the Chinese government and eagerly listened to Chinese students in Europe.
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 21:55
Methinks our friend could be a Fomenko dancer.  They believe that all history before the 11th cent is a medieval construct, or something close. Wacko
 
 
 
As for the Chinese,  That's not a new idea. Zheng Hei's voyages have been studied for years.  It's just been brought  back to the fore by a series of discoveries in various places and the rise of Sino Centrism.  I don't know what to think about the claim that he circumnavigated the world.   You'd have to show me a lot more of the hard stuff on that one I think.  That a trading party or 2 made it to the West Coast of North America, maybe.  It certainly isn't impossible.  There have been finds in the last hundred years that would point to that.  Again, a little more of the hard stuff please. 


Edited by red clay - 29-Aug-2007 at 22:42
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 22:19
If your looking for fun, try A T Fomenko's New World Chronology.
 
From Wiki-   [not the only source for info on this just the easiest]
 
Fomenko is a supporter of revising chronological history. He has created his own revision called "New Chronology", based on statistical correlations, dating of zodiacs, and by examining the mathematics and astronomy involved in chronology. Fomenko claims that he has discovered that many historical events do not correspond mathematically with the dates they are supposed to have occurred on. He asserts from this that all of ancient history (including the history of Greece, Rome, and Egypt) is just a reflection of events that occurred in the Middle Ages and that all of Chinese and Arab history are fabrications of 17th and 18th century Jesuits. He also claims that Jesus lived in the 12th century A.D. and was crucified in Constantinople; that the Trojan war and the Crusades were the same historical event; and that Genghis Khan and the Mongols were actually Russians. As well as disputing written chronologies, Fomenko also disputes more objective dating techniques such as dendrochronology and radiocarbon dating (see here for an examination of the latter criticism).
 
You want to talk fertilizer?             Tongue
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 00:28

Thanks for that information red clay, you are a scholar and a gentleman of the first order in being able to cut through the wall of bull and get to the true sources. I have never heard of this nerd Fomenko before, now there's one from the left field! Is he a cousin of Putin or something? The pity of it all now adds up, the Russians were fed nonsense for years by their revisionist masters. Now they have a new set of masters a whole new set of revised nonsense has arisen. The same goes for the Chinese.

Like you I believe the Chines certainly did get as far as North America, the claim has a lot going for it. Trouble is when evidence was found they Chinese were under Mao and he ordered any evidence to be destroyed for he wrongly thought it was a Western plot. One of the many great chances he missed to bring China into the modern scholastic world.

Seeing you do appreciate history like fine wine I will tell you the story of the first brassiere. It was truly invented by the Chinese! A concubine of the emperor Hsuan Tsang of T'ang was having her bit of chase me around the room fun on the side with one of his generals.

Then one day her lover in a fit of passion lost his cool and bit one of her breasts to break the skin. That very night she had to go to the king's chamber. It would have been a death sentence to appear before before her lord with an enormous hickey that was not of his doing. She wept in fear and then started thinking and got busy with a pair of scissors.

That night she reported for duty in the royal bedchamber wearing the world's first bra of red silk seductively molded around her bust. The emperor was so turned on that he ordered her to wear it always. The improvement of desperation soon became desired by women all over the kingdom. Chinese women used it not as chest support but for sexual stimulation of a husband or lover. To add to the fun they soon learned to embroider their brassieres with pornographic scenes and messages!
 
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