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Topic: Islamic conquest Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 07:29 |
HI!! I'm a new member here, i have been here a couple of times reading the different topics people wrote about... so i thought i will try to give it a chance, and maybe you could help me by answering some of my questions...
I'd a argument with a friend about the islamic conquest in persia in 7th century, I'm iranian, and i have always understanded that the islamic conquest was very bloody and barbaric, that many people were killed and many books were burned, is this true or???because he says that, that's false.
I hope someone can help me out of this
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 10:54 |
Welcome Mandana (Mother of Cyrus the Great!)
The problem is that Iranians think if they say that Islamic conquest was bloody or barbaric, they have humiliated their holy religion and the fact is that Arabs couldn't conquer Iran easily and there were some bloody battles between Iranians and Arabs, I think the best source about it is the one thousand years old book of Shahnameh.
After the defeat of Iranians at the Battle of Qadisiyah [between Sad ibn Abi Waqqas (General of Calph Umar) and Rustam Farrokhzad (General of Sassanid king Yazdgerd III)], Ferdosi says in Shahnameh:
Ze Sassanian niz beryan shodam Bar Iranian zar o geyan shodam
I got angry at Sassanids I came to tears for Iranians
Dariq in bozorgi o in far o bakht Dariq in sar o taj o in dad o takht
Alas! that greatness and that splendour and fortune Alas! that crown, that justice and throne
Setareh nagardad magar bar zian Kazin pas shekast ayad az Tazian
[It seems even] Stars are going around to annoy us After that [battle] we had just defeats against Arabs
Kazin tokhmeh gity kasi nashomorad Bar in salian Char sad bogazard
No one counts us as a race in the world Four hundreds years have passed from that event
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azimuth
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Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 00:31 |
an ancient familly reunion!!
beautiful but sad poem
i thought i can understand some persian words but here i didnt.
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Miller
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Posted: 21-Dec-2004 at 21:05 |
Try this one, Setareh=Star. This word
seems to be common in many Indo-Euorpean languages
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 07:11 |
i thought i can understand some persian words but here i didnt. |
I think the reason is that there are many Arabic words in Farsi (modern Persian) but you can't find any non-Persian word in Shahnameh.
Try this one, Setareh=Star. This word seems to be common in many Indo-Euorpean languages |
You will see more similar words, if I translate word by word.
Setareh na-gardad magar bar zian Star not gyrate other [than] for pain
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Miller
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Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 12:41 |
Actually, the reverse is also true there are many words from Persian and Hindi that are loaned to Arabic and Turkish. Similar words in languages in the same family don't necessarily show borrowed words just the common roots of the languages such as Persian, Greek, and English (not Arabic or Turkish) I think people discussed this subject with a lot of emotion in relation to words borrowed in modern Greek in another thread here
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azimuth
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Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 23:21 |
is it only shahnameh or also Omar khayam also used pure persian words?
oh i found one word from that poem ( taj ) i know this one.
Edited by azimuth
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 04:25 |
Actually, the reverse is also true there are many words from Persian and Hindi that are loaned to Arabic and Turkish. |
It is interesting to know that 10% of words (especially religious words) in Quran have persian origin.
Arabic word in Quran - Persian origin (English) Din - Din (Religion) Rab - Raba (God) Fardaus - Pardis (Paradise) Jahannam - Gahnam (Hell) Barzakh - Bardak (Isthmus) Huri - Pari (Fairy) Jen - Jin (Demon) Sarat - Rah Rast (Right way) Shara - Shah Rah (Religion way) Harut - Hurvatat [Khordad] (Name of an angle) Marut - Murtat [Mordad] (Name of an angle) Kahf - Kav (Cave) Bab - Darb (Door) Jidar - Diwar (Wall) Sama - Asman (Sky) Vaght - Vakta (Time) Varagh - Barg (Leaf) Raheb - Rahban (Monk) Jaziya - Gazyat (Tribute) Kahzinah - Gozineh (Treasury) ...
is it only shahnameh or also Omar khayam also used pure persian words? |
It is only Shahnameh (of course among early Persian books after Islam)
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Faran
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Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 14:19 |
The Arabs did burn many books, they were not always the preservers of classical sources which we know them as. The reasoning behind the burning of Persian literature was that if it was of any use to humanity, their loss would be unimportant as now the Quran existed and no other book was necessary, and if they were against Allah then they should be burned, so the Arabs assumed Sassanid texts were anti-Islamic (not being able to read them).
Cyrus on your last post: che ajab! I didn't know it was that many.
Unfortunately, 700 Arabic words have been found in Shahnameh. Oh well, it still preserved Persian language, though it wouldn't have been intelligible to the Sassanids, Parthians, or Achaemenids.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 18:33 |
I understand some of these words:
Dariq in bozorgi o in far o bakht Dariq in sar o taj o in dad o takht
Alas! that greatness and that splendour and fortune Alas! that crown, that justice and throne
bakht=baht, takht=taht, taj-tac
I also read in a place I do not remember now that the arabic alphabet is actually Persian alphabet, am I right?
Azimuth, taj is probably a Persian word.
Edited by HulaguHan
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 05:22 |
BTW, we did the same to arabs in 1248 Baghdad invasion. We burnt all of their books and send them back to pro-mohammad days.
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ramin
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Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 20:41 |
Originally posted by HulaguHan
I also read in a place I do not remember now that the arabic alphabet is actually Persian alphabet, am I right? |
actually the root of both Persian and Arabic alphabet goes back to
Aramaic. Aramaic and Phoenician are the mother of almost all scripts
used in west Asia and Europe. and it shaped Old Persian's alphabet
which was used by Achaemenian kings. Later (2nd century B.C), Parthians
used a changed version of Old Persian alphabet, which they called
"Pahlavi" or "Pahlavani" meaning "heroic" and called themselves
"Pahlavans" meaning heros; this language played a significant role in
recovering Iranian mythology after it was destroyed by Alexander.
Pahlavi is also known as Middle Persian.
Arabic alphabet is most close to Pahlavi alphabet. Arabs borrowed many
words from Persians, that's why they have many original Persian words.
after Arabs conquest of Iran (6th C.) they forced their language to
Persians, to use in schools, governments, and religious prayers, and
that's why many Arabic words exists in Modern Persian. At the end, the
point is that both Arabic and Modern Persian are sub-alphabets of
Pahlavi.
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azimuth
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Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 01:14 |
Originally posted by HulaguHan
I also read in a place I do not remember now that the arabic alphabet is actually Persian alphabet, am I right?
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not right
Originally posted by HulaguHan
BTW, we did the same to arabs in 1248 Baghdad invasion. We burnt all of their books and send them back to pro-mohammad days. |
they didnt reach all the arabic areas such as north west africa
i guessed by "we" you meant the Mongols
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 05:53 |
It is obvious that the Arabic alphabet was developed from the Persian (Pahlavi) alphabet but the origin of both of them and also Greek and Latin alphabets was the Phoenician alphabet.
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 18:46 |
Do you use Pahlavi Alphabet now? Or do you use Arabic Alphabet? Ottomans, Qarakhanids, Timurids, Seljuks used arabic alphabet but in the way of Persian as far as I know and that is why no arab could read what we wrote, on the other hand, you guys understood most of the things.
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ramin
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Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 00:16 |
Originally posted by HulaguHan
Do you use Pahlavi Alphabet now? |
If you mean the old Pahlavi
alphabet, then the answer is a big NO. as you can see in Cyrus's
resemblance Pahlavi and Arabic have obvious differences. anyway... both
Arabic and Persian alphabet (plus Turkish before Ata Turk) are from a
same family of Pahlavi's.
Originally posted by HulaguHan
Or do you use Arabic Alphabet? |
the alphabet Iranians use is not Arabic alphabet, but the letters are 97% the same. Today's Pesian alphabet is called Perso-Arabic script (I'll explain some of the differences later).
Originally posted by HulaguHan
Ottomans,
Qarakhanids, Timurids, Seljuks used arabic alphabet but in
the way of Persian as far as I know and that is why no arab could read
what we wrote, on the other hand, you guys understood most of the
things. |
hmm...I'm not sure if i'm following you, you mean the
alphabet those kingdoms used were Arabic alphabet but Arabs couldn't
understand it and Persians did?
* the differences between Modern Persian and Arabic is like the
difference between English and German, there are some little
differences; (1) Modern Persians' alphabet (what Iranians use today)
contains 32 letters, and Arabic alphabet uses 28 (if i'm not mistaken).
the letters "G", "P", "ZH", "CH" are not available in Arabic as you may
already know. (2) in both alphabets we have number of S's ( " س" " ص" " ث"
), in Arabic each of them pronounces differently, however in Persian
they're all the same, only in dictation they differ. (3) the letter "ط"
(T) is used in both languages, however in recent years Persian Academy
of language has tried to reduce the use of this letter -- since it only
creates doubts in our dictation -- and replaced it with a popular "T"
(" ت")
Edited by ramin
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 04:08 |
Yes we used your alphabet so that you understood us, however arabs didn' t. this is very usual, because we learned islam from you (and off course the alphabet), from a defected Prince of Samanids. He convinced his friend Satuk Bugra Han to be muslim. Seljuks, and other Turks followed this tradition. But Samanids were sunni, that is why we are Sunni, LOL. If they were Shiite or a Shiite embassy would came earlier, we might be Shiite. LOL Anyway, I just wanted to describe what is going on, I do not discriminate divisions. Muslim=Muslim in my empty head...
Edited by HulaguHan
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 04:12 |
Probably Islam is more Persian than Arabic religion, after reading those comments, I have this idea. All religious words are Persian. And we know that Achamaneid Empire , Persianized the proto-muhammedan arabs of Egypt, Syria, Babylonia, it is highly possible. at least Turkish islam is much more Persian than Arabic.
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azimuth
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Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 23:10 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
It is obvious that the Arabic alphabet was developed from the Persian (Pahlavi) alphabet but the origin of both of them and also Greek and Latin alphabets was the Phoenician alphabet.
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i dont see the relation between them
the Arabic alphabet came from the old Aramatic scripts from the Nabataean or the Syriac once
the Palavi Alphabet came from the Old Aramatic Scripts from the eastern part ( some where in Iraq) and it was adapted by Darius I to be official language of some parts of the Persian empire
my point is that both Alphabet came from Aramatic and Arabic didnt go through the Pahlavi to be developed to what is it today
Arabic came directly from Aramatic
Aramatic is a Sematic language.
BTW i understood more than 50% of the Aramatic used in the "Passion of the Christ move" which proves the closeness
Originally posted by HulaguHan
Do you use Pahlavi Alphabet now? Or do you use Arabic Alphabet? Ottomans, Qarakhanids, Timurids, Seljuks used arabic alphabet but in the way of Persian as far as I know and that is why no arab could read what we wrote, on the other hand, you guys understood most of the things. |
i can read persian and former turkish alphabet, but i wont be able to understand the meanings
the letters are similar
Originally posted by HulaguHan
Probably Islam is more Persian than Arabic religion, after reading those comments, I have this idea. All religious words are Persian. And we know that Achamaneid Empire , Persianized the proto-muhammedan arabs of Egypt, Syria, Babylonia, it is highly possible. at least Turkish islam is much more Persian than Arabic. |
hmmm yea Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was Persian and the Quran came in a Persian language.
i guess there is no such thing called Arabic and ther are no such things called Arabic people and language and culture
may be the people who call them selves arabs are actually persians and that group was saved by the Turks who are the real people behind the early Islamic Empires.
keep dreaming
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 00:59 |
Well Azimuth, take a look at the words coming from Farsi. Do not underestimate the Achamaneid Dominance in middle east in the ancient times. But we saved you many times man, if you mean by Turks as the people who saved arabs. We saved you in Crusades. We saved you from Shiite slaughter, remember the Safavid attacks on Baghdad.
Anyway, we have nothing to do with the early islamic days mate, sorry if you took my words as an insult. Cyrus show me the Persian words in Quran. There are also cross realtions. Arabs have deep and strong cultural background too. Off course Egyptians and Sumerians influenced Persians too. May be those Persian words are Sumerian origined and may we end this discussion.
I didn' t want to offend noone mate, both Arabic and Persian cultures are the first civilizations of the world. Let them mate and breed than.
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