Why were the Minoans so matriarchal?

Originally posted by Odin  Were Minoan rulers all queens?

No they were duckies.

 

I've heard of this. It is actually part of Indo-European theories, namely the Kurgan hypotesis. This states that before I-E, in whole Europe there were matri-centric or even matriarchal cultures, which changes with the arrival of Indo-Europeans.  

In Greek Mythology, Europa was the daughter of Agenor and Phoenix, who rode from Phoenicia to Greece on the back of a bull.  Apparently, Zeus saw her gathering flowers in a meadow with some nymphs and fell in love with her. So he came down and changed himself into a bull and breathed from his mouth a crocus.  In this way he deceived Europa, carried her off and crossed the sea to Crete where he had intercourse with her. There she conceived and bore three sons, Minos, Sarpedon and Rhadamanthys.  Europa was left by Zeus on Crete to bear her children without a husband.

Does this imply that Europa ruled Crete as a matriarch and suggest that a female deity was worshiped on Crete?

It is interesting that one of the symbols of the European Union has Europa riding on the back of a bull.

Some links to enjoy:
Minoan Religion
http://www.goddessmystic.com/PathActivities/MatricentricCult ures/crete-religion.shtml

Minoan Snake Goddess
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/snakegoddess/minoanculture.html

Names of the Goddess
http://www.mothergoddess.com/completelist.htm

Someone must edit that. 

I think it has more than a questionable neutrality. Even if Cretans (and  possibly other peoples associated to Neolithic Europe and Near East) were strongly Matrifocal and even if women do seem to have got a major role at least in religion, I doubt that they were "matriarchal" as is suggested without evidence.

While the Bull is probably a Matristic icon (the uterus, that's why Venus rules over Taurus in Astrology), this doesn't mean that men were in a subordiante position and in no Cretan image I have ever seen does such thigh appear.

Originally posted by Maju Can you document that, Odin? I know that there are reasons to think that Minoans were relatively Matri-centric but I have never heard before about those images you say.�

I think he must be referring to the procession murals.

It would stretch the page too wide, so here is a link ot the full view of one:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4947/cre1268ty.jpg

And a detail from that:



AFAIK, there are no images of men being treated like this but then again, there are no other images of anyone at all in such an obvious position of authority, man or woman. Also we don't know the context of this mural .... the men might be suitors, rather than subjects. We have only a tiny bit of Minoan art, what we're seeing is a random selection.

Edited by edgewaters

Originally posted by Odin Originally posted by Maju Someone must edit that.   And then some radical feminist will just change it back again!

Not necessarily. Anyhow, you can reprot vandals to administrators, etc.

Originally posted by Maju such an authority position for a woman is probably impossible among Greeks, Romans or even Celts or Germans. No known IE people would have allowed so much power to their women. Maybe in Egypt? But this doesn't show that women were the ones in power: the prince of the lilies, which shows the oldest fleur-de-lys of all known art, not actually different of how they would be drawn in mediveal heraldry, is quite clearly an aristocratic youn man. That this lady was indeed a powerful and respected woman, it doesn't mean that all society was organized in an "amazon style". You can well see simmilar situations in our modern society, wich is still very much patriarchal. It means a egalitarian approach to gender.

We really don't know what's going on. (As an aside, Celts - at least in Britain - did have women in several important roles, eg we know the names of only two "judges" in ancient Ireland and one, Brigh Ambuid, is female).

We have no idea what this woman is doing, or what sort of event is taking place. We have no idea who the Prince of the Lilies is or what he's doing. My guess is that women and men had different roles, perhaps the women ran the palace economy and the religion and the men ran the navy and the trade network. Who knows. For all we know, the Prince of the Lilies is simply in costume for a ritual and the women in the middle of the cupbearer procession is receiving wedding gifts or suitors and has no power at all. I do tend to think that women held some sort of important role, and I'd guess it has something to do with the religion, and the palaces as centers of both trade and religion. Just on a hunch I think there was likely a king who controlled the navies and the foreign trade - differing powers, like the division between religious and secular authority in early Mesopotamia.

Originally posted by crag_dolomite I'm sure we can find art of Sir Francis Drake and the Sea Hawks bowing to Queen Liz 1 also. And many men paying homage to queen Victoria, Cathrine-the- great, Cleopatra and many other "important" women of history.

Well ... there is definately something odd going on with the depictions of women in general in Minoan art. Can't say what it means. Certainly not "Amazons" ... everyone depicted who is armed is male. On the other hand, the women all appear to be very wealthy, and as far as we can tell, the religion seems to have had priestesses rather than priests. One can only guess what all this means ... men with secular authority, women with religious authority? Maybe they got wealthy the same way the temple prostitutes of the Sumerians did? Or maybe the religion controlled the domestic trade that centered around the palaces, and the king controlled the navy and the foreign trade? Nobody knows.

Edited by edgewaters

There are evidence of very similar matriarchal societies spread across Europe, in the time before IE. This is found in comunal graves where everyone in the grave were genetically related through an adult female buried in the same grave.

Originally posted by edgewaters Maybe they got wealthy the same way the temple prostitutes of the Sumerians did? Or maybe the religion controlled the domestic trade that centered around the palaces, and the king controlled the navy and the foreign trade? Nobody knows.

Yes, I like that answer

My personal opinion on the matter is that agriculture societies tended to see the earth as as mother since everything sprang forth from her.
Whereas warrior societies viewed the thunder god as supreme because lightning destroyed the earth

So were the Minoans warriors or farmers?


Edited by crag_dolomite

Originally posted by crag_dolomite My personal opinion on the matter is that agriculture societies tended to see the earth as as mother since everything sprang forth from her. Whereas warrior societies viewed the thunder god as supreme because lightning destroyed the earth So were the Minoans warriors or farmers?

Hmm ... alot of early agricultural societies were very, very warlike. Look at what the first explorers of the Americas discovered - relatively peaceful Plains tribes (until the arrival of the horse), but a great deal of war associated with corn-based agrarian cultures like the Aztec or Iroqouis (the latter also matrifocal). Similarly in Europe, the Celts and their predecessors were very much agrarian, often worshipped a fertility goddess (and, at least in Ireland, featured female combatants), but were again very warlike. Conversely, many pastoralist groups were not warlike at all - militaristism among pastoralists often seems to be a response to agrarians appearing or spreading in former grazing areas. In many cases, human sacrifice also appears to be associated with the early agrarian cultures, even matrifocal ones - perhaps even the Minoans. See here.

That considered, the Minoans themselves do not appear to be particularly warlike - above all, they are seafarers and traders though there is some thought that they must have been a formidable naval power. The question of their navy aside, their cities were not walled, only a few weapons have been found, and there is only a single depiction of armed men (some spearmen by the coast).

Edited by edgewaters