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Sanimideg
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Topic: Who are the Croats? Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 11:36 |
Who are the Croats? Read it:
Who are the Croats?
In Austro-Hungarian statistical records, according to Adolf Fiker, Serbs (of all three faiths, according to the stats) made up 88.9% of Dalmatia, with Albanians composing, 0.2% and Italians the rest. Many "Croats," such as those in Hercegovina and around Dubrovnik and all of Dalmatia are the descendants of Serb converts to Catholicism by Franciscan monks. The Croats have been the most vile enemies of the Serbs in our history.
The following is a list of Croatian academics who affirm that contemporary "Croatian language" is simply a usurped form of Serbian. The original Croatian language was the kajkavski-cakavski idiom now marginalized as a dialect, but today in Croatia the stokavski dialect is being used as the official language because most Croats do not speak kajkavski-cakavski (1/5 do). The information below will show that kajkavski-cakavski is being delliberately marginalized to increase the number of "Croats" by falsely using Catholicism as an identifying marker of "Croatianness".
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SRBIJA DO TOKIJA!
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Sanimideg
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Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 11:38 |
QUOTE #1:
"Hrvati uvedoe i sami jezik tokavski, akoprem ih je to stalo i stoji neizmjerno truda jer i od svagdanjeg domaeg govora daleko im je doci". (Vei, Neven, 1855; Milosavljevi, II 28)
QUOTE #2:
"Oni se nadaju odoljeti ako pravopis i gramatiku budemo imali odijeljenu od srbske" Mikatovi pie Jagiu (Jagi, Spomeni mojega ivota, 62).
QUOTE #3:
"pravi Hrvati preko Kupe stanuju". (Danica 1847, hrvatski pisac A. Tkalevi)
QUOTE #4:
"hrvatina stupiv preko Save, a poglavito preko Kupe poima..." (Ivan Kukuljevi Arhiv, IX, 318; eric 158)
QUOTE #5:
"Mislim da smo ve na dobrom putu. Svi su vrlo svjesni te problematike, od onih starijih pa do danas. Mi smo nekakva najmlaa generacija. A kad smo toga svi svjesni, onda bi doista trebalo, kao to je Adam rekao, uvesti kajkavski u kole kao hrvatski materinski jezik. Javna je tajna koje su svi nai akademici itekako svjesni da je hrvatski standard kojeg sada imamo zapravo velikim dijelom srpska inaica Vukovoga rjenika. Srbi se zezaju i esto znam od njih uti: "Ukrali ste nam jezik i jo ste ga unitili". To se kao ne smije rei, a to svi znaju."
(Vid Balog Medjumurskim Novinama 04.02.2004)
QUOTE #6:
"U Dubrovniku, ako ne od poetka a ono od pamtivjeka, govorilo se srpski, govorilo kako od puana tako od vlastele; kako kod kue tako u javnom ivotu. Jeste istina da su zapisnici raznih vijea vodili latinski, a prilika je takoe da pod knezovima mletakim, njih radi, na vijeima se poneto raspravljalo i mletakim i kojekakvim govorom. Nego u opini od mletaka osloboenoj, srpski je raspravnijezik" (Natko Nodilo Rad, 65, 117)
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Below is an article by Andrej Urem, a Croat and a kajkavski-cakavski revivavalist and academic. He correctly concurs that the standard language of contemporary Croatia is Serbian and not Croatian and urges for a revival and demarginalization of cakavski-kajkavski into the standard language. The article is also anti-Serb:
QUOTE #7:
"Krajem XV. stoljeca uslijedila je velika tragedija hrvatskog naroda. Cakavski govor potisnut je u usko priobalno podrucje, Kvarner i Istru, dok je novo vlako stanovnitvo, pristiglo s osmanlijskim osvajacima, popunilo ocicen prostor, donijevi sa sobom svoju tradiciju i jezik (stokavstinu).
Znacajka tog nametnutog nam jezika je (i)jekavski izgovor i specifican rjecnik s obiljem turcizama, te preko turskog jezika preuzete arapske i perzijske rijeci. U tom smislu suvremeni knjizevni jezik ima manje-visee neprekinutu tradiciju jos od XVI stoljeca, kada Dubrovcani razvijaju bogatu knjizevnost na stokavskom narjecju ijekavskog izgovora, koji se potom namece i Hrvatima pretezno ikavskog izgovora. Ujednacavanju hrvatskog knjizevnog jezika na stokavskom narjecju mnogo doprinose franjevci koji su djelovali u Dalmaciji, Bosni i Slavoniji te vec od polovice XVIII. stoljeca imaju svoj jezicni standard. Tek nastojanjem Ilirskog pokreta ujedinjuju se svi Hrvati u jedan knjizevni jezik stokavskog tipa.
Lingvisticko oblikovanje hrvatskog knjizevnog jezika u XIX. stoljecu, u znaku je zagrebacke jezikoslovne skole. "Zasluge" i nastojanja Vuka S. Karadzica nagradene su 1861. kada je izabran za pocasnog gradanina grada Zagreba i Pozeske zupanije, cak je i biskup J.J. Strossmayer donirao 1000 forinti za tiskanje Vukovih jos neizdanih spisa.
Taj jezik (stokavski), u osnovi vukovski nije bio darovan vec usvojen hrvatskom pomirljivoscu i naivnoscu. Istovremeno, potpomognut politikom plemenskog rvatstva, stvorio je neprirodnog blizanca srpskog doppelgangera. Cakavica je uzmicala, povlacila se; izvorni jezik tisucljetne tradicije gubio je vec svaku bitku i smesturan u narjecje padao je u zaborav. Medutim, zastor jos nije pao, moc pamcenja je moc zivota.
Cakavica se grijala uz domace kameno ognjis;ce, skrito tinjala pod pepelom i iskra se nije nikad ugasila. Mozda ju je upravo to spasilo: iskonska ljubav za nasu domacu besdu i strpljenje, ona slabasna nada da sve na koncu prode. Rano je veseliti se, jer bilo bi bolje da je do kraja pokrije zaborav, nego da se uruci na razinu neukusnih festivalskih blesavljenja ili da postane oruzje i stigma lokalnog revolta.
Andrej Urem U ISKONU GLAGOLJICE Dec 06, 04
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SRBIJA DO TOKIJA!
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Sanimideg
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Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 11:40 |
This is a map of real Croat territory colored in black
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SRBIJA DO TOKIJA!
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Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 11:44 |
Croats are a South-Slavic ethnicity. Croats are closely related to
Serbs, though Croats and Serbs are bitter enemies. They are so closely
related they can easily claim that half the other nations is in fact
theirs. Perhaps Croats and Serbs are exactly the same people, who
coincidentally have a different religion and writing system.
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Sanimideg
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Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 11:55 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Croats are a South-Slavic ethnicity. Croats are closely related to Serbs, though Croats and Serbs are bitter enemies. They are so closely related they can easily claim that half the other nations is in fact theirs. Perhaps Croats and Serbs are exactly the same people, who coincidentally have a different religion and writing system. |
Exactly!!!
as they are very similar the Croats with a great help of Catholic Church and Catholic Austria-Hungary converted many Serbs to Croatdom and occupied 50% of Serb ethnic lands!
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SRBIJA DO TOKIJA!
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Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 12:12 |
Originally posted by Sanimideg
Exactly!!!
as they are very similar the Croats with a
great help of Catholic Church and Catholic Austria-Hungary converted
many Serbs to Croatdom and occupied 50% of Serb ethnic lands!
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No, Croats are Roman Catholic because Croatia was on the Western side
when the Roman Empire was split up. And Croats are occuping Croatia?
Usually when people live somewhere for over a thousand years it's not
called occupation.
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Sanimideg
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Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 12:23 |
Croats are only those inhabitants of present day Greater Croatia who spoke Croat language (chakawian dialect) that is 8% of total population living in North Dalmatia. Nortwest Croatia is settled by originaly Slovenes but now Croatized speaking kajkawian dialect that is mother tongue of all Slovenes. But 70% of inhabitants of Croatia are speaking Serb language that is shtokawian dialect the same one as in Montenegro, Bosnia and Serbia. However, all of those Croatia's Catholic shtokawian speakers became under pressure and propaganda now Croats but not Serbs.
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SRBIJA DO TOKIJA!
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Raider
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 03:51 |
The ancestors of the croats arrived Croatia in the 7th century. They have no relation with the Roman Empire. Western/latin/catholic culture was chosen by the croats just like the hungarians and unlike the serbs. They formed a separate state from Serbia which de iure exists till the formation of Yugoslavia.
In my opinion the croats are definitively a separate ethnic group.
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BirTane
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:10 |
Ethnic group....ethnos...nation...please explain the difference between the 2 terms, if exist.
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Raider
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 06:58 |
Originally posted by BirTane
Ethnic group....ethnos...nation...please explain the difference between the 2 terms, if exist. |
I use the expression ethnic group, because I think the term "nation" has a political reference, and its meaning greatly changed through history.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 11:42 |
they were simply a different tribe from the many slavic people who came
down and occupied the land of the Illyrians who were originially there.
Serbs, Croats, Slovenes etc were different Slavic tribes and
subsequently chose their own religion.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Rava
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Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 12:41 |
The problem is that early Slavs shared nearly the same language and the differences were dialectical. However most of the tribes underlined own separate lineage. That's hard to explain. Maybe their social organisation was based on strong clan relations.
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dorian
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Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 07:09 |
I often hear of Serb/Croats, Slovenes etc..Why they put them together? If all the nations who live in the region of whilom Yugoslavia are slavic tribes, where is their national unity?
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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TheodoreFelix
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Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 22:42 |
Proto-Croatians I believe were an Iranian people. However much of todays Croats, Serbs and Bosnians(muslim serbs) are more or less slavinized Illyrians with many slavic traits. Or so some say.
General belief is that both were a people that settled in the Balkans during the slavic invasion.
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Sharrukin
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Posted: 17-Jun-2005 at 18:26 |
It is probably to be understood that the current names of the Serbs and Croats were by origin Iranic, but they themselves were always speakers of what has become southern Slavic. The earliest attestations of these names have be found in the Ukraine during the Roman period when the region was inhabited by the Sarmatians, an Iranic-speaking group of tribes. These very names were also found in regions inhabited by western Slavs in Poland and eastern Germany. Thus we had a White Croatia on the southern Vistula (southern Poland), and a White Serbia on the middle Elbe.
One of the current theories is that Iranic groups, such as the Alans imposed themselves on the early Slavs and gave names of subtribes to some of these Slavs. The Antes, another group of Slavs seem to have had a name directly tied to the Alans, themselves. The Chinese knew of one of the eastern Alanic groups as Antsai.
When the Huns invaded the Ukraine the Alans joined them in conquering the Empire of the Ostrogoths. When the Huns were said to have conquered the greater part of eastern Europe, we do in fact find Sarmatian artefacts spread throughout eastern Europe at this time. It is thus surmised that the Huns appointed the Alans to govern the Slavs of those regions, and thus "western" Croats and Serbs (Sorbs) are found in other parts of eastern Europe, while "eastern" groups remained behind. Those western groups would later become components of the Polabian and Polish Slavs.
When the Avars conquered most of the Byzantine Illyrian provinces they brought along with them the eastern Slavs. One of these groups, however, the Croats were said to have originated from White Croatia. The legend behind this migration does not mention that they were forced into Avar Illyria but rather that when they migrated into Illyria they battled the Avars but ultimately submitted. The Serbs, on the other hand, seemed to have arrived later. The Byzantine evidence seems to mark their arrival in the reign of Heraclius, sometime between 610 and 630 and which were settled by the emperor in the southern buffer zone between the Avars and the Byzantines. In about the latter year, the Croats gained their independence from the Avars.
With two strong groups of Slavs (or Irano-Slavs) settled on the heels of the first Slavs, it becomes understandable how those two groups were able to impose their names on the mass of the southern Slavs which first settled Illyria. Those mostly unnamed Illyrian Slavs were apparently one people, speaking one language. The Serbs and Croats on the other hand originated from different regions, and apparently their migrations weren't large-scale. It would have become inevitable that while these two strong groups were able to impose their names on the Illyrian Slavs, they inevitably were assimilated by those Illyrian Slavs and adopted their dialect or language.
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TheodoreFelix
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Posted: 17-Jun-2005 at 18:52 |
Okay thanks for clearing that up.
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Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 09:59 |
Originally posted by Sanimideg
Who are the Croats? Read it:
Who are the Croats?
In Austro-Hungarian statistical records, according to Adolf Fiker, Serbs (of all three faiths, according to the stats) made up 88.9% of Dalmatia, with Albanians composing, 0.2% and Italians the rest. Many "Croats," such as those in Hercegovina and around Dubrovnik and all of Dalmatia are the descendants of Serb converts to Catholicism by Franciscan monks. The Croats have been the most vile enemies of the Serbs in our history.
The following is a list of Croatian academics who affirm that contemporary "Croatian language" is simply a usurped form of Serbian. The original Croatian language was the kajkavski-cakavski idiom now marginalized as a dialect, but today in Croatia the stokavski dialect is being used as the official language because most Croats do not speak kajkavski-cakavski (1/5 do). The information below will show that kajkavski-cakavski is being delliberately marginalized to increase the number of "Croats" by falsely using Catholicism as an identifying marker of "Croatianness".
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those are bullsh*ts and nonsense , it is well known that 90 % of bosnian serbs are ortdodox converted croats , serbs have never ruled western of drina.
drinu cemo pregaziti a srbiju zapaliti - hrvatska do zemuna
Edited by hrwatman
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Guests
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Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 16:01 |
Hrwatman, I kindly request you to take another avatar and signature picture.
Thanks in advance.
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ill_teknique
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Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 16:39 |
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO
Proto-Croatians I believe were an Iranian
people. However much of todays Croats, Serbs and Bosnians(muslim serbs)
are more or less slavinized Illyrians with many slavic traits. Or so
some say.
General belief is that both were a people that settled in the Balkans during the slavic invasion. |
Bosnians are bosnians slavs not muslim serbs
and point two this guy is a cetnik ultra nationalist whose thread
should not be even considered serious enough to post please close this
thread.
and iks. please no more misinformation on bosnian identity im bosnian i think i know better than any nonbosnian what i am.
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ill_teknique
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Posted: 22-Aug-2005 at 16:42 |
correction
both of these guys croatman and the other one are ultra nationalists.
one a cetniks and croatman a ustasa by defenition dont bother arguing
and make this a hundred page thread on nonsense
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