QuoteReplyTopic: Mongols never decide to invade Europe Posted: 30-Aug-2013 at 10:26
How Eastern Europe's political map around year 1350 could have looked like if Mongol invasions of the 1200s had not taken place:
Galicia-Volyn:
During the 1230s the Ruthenian Principality of Galicia-Volyn
subordinated two other Ruthenian Principalities - Pinsk-Turov and Kiev.
In 1240 as the result of the Mongol Invasion, rulers Galicia-Volyn lost
control of those lands and also became vassals of the Mongol Empire.
With no Mongol invasion this does not take place and rulers of
Galicia-Volyn strengthen their reign over those lands, eventually moving
their capital city to Kiev and claiming the re-establishment of unified
Kievan Rus. Of course there is still a lot to be reunited, but
Galicia-Volyn becomes the most important contender. In further
perspective, it is possible that Galicia-Volyn would also re-unite some
further small principalities, such as Pereyaslav, Chernigov, Smolensk,
Polotsk, Novgorod-Seversk and Murom-Ryazan. The only serious rival for
Galicia-Volyn would be Vladimir-Suzdal (since Novgorod was not
interested in reuniting entire Rus - it was rather busy with
strengthening its influences in the Baltic Sea area, as well as eastward
expansion into Siberia). Vladimir-Suzdal in reality split into even
more small principalities after the Mongol Invasion - but in this
alternative scenario, it is possible that it would remain unified. In
real history during the 1300s Galicia-Volyn lost its importance and was
eventually partitioned between Poland and Lithuania in the middle of
that century. In this alternative scenario, Galicia-Volyn is not
weakened by the Mongols and is capable of firmly establishing its
strength - making itself invulnerable for Polish or Hungarian attacks.
Lithuania is also no longer a threat, since instead of expanding into
Mongol-devastated areas of Rus, it shares the faith of all other Baltic
tribes and becomes eventually conquered by Christian crusaders and
incorporated to the Teutonic State.
Lithuania:
Although Mindaugas managed to accomplish the unification of majority of
Lithuanian tribes, he and his heirs were not able to rapidly expand into
Ruthenian territories, because those lands avoided enormous economic
and political devastation which in reality was inflicted by the Mongols.
Poland unified and strengthened by the Silesian dynasty of Henrys
remained in friendly relations with the Teutonic Order, so it never
became Lithuania's ally in her struggle against the crusaders. Novgorod
was powerful enough to repulse Teutonic attacks on its own, but not
really interested in allying with Pagans. Lithuanian tribes eventually
shared the faith of all other Baltic tribes, loosing their independence
around the mid-14th century.
Poland:
Henry the Pious doesn't die in the battle of Legnica in 1241, he lives
about as long as his father did (73 years) - dying shortly before 1280.
In the meantime, his greatest enemy Konrad of Mazovia dies peacefully
as he did in reality, in 1247. After the death of Konrad of Mazovia,
Henry finishes the re-unification of Poland (in case of Mazovian dukes,
they become his vassals) and re-establishes the kingdom. Silesia is
not lost by Poland, but instead becomes the most important province of
the state - capital city remains, however, in Cracow. Polish forces,
including Mazovian dukes - vassals of Henry the Pious and his heirs -
continue the conquest of Prussian and then Lithuanian tribes together
with the Teutonic Order. Mazovian-Teutonic border is established where
it historically was, except the region of Yotvingia (up to the Neman
River in the north and east) and southern part of the Land of Lubawa,
which go either to Poland directly or to Mazovian vassals.
North-eastern and eastern Polish-Teutonic border is along the Neman
River. Mazovian dukes during the 14th and 15th centuries continue to
die childless like they did in reality, after which their duchies are
gradually being incorporated directly to the Crown. Even though not
losing Silesia and gaining new lands in the north-east, Poland -
despite its re-unification - is not able to expand in south-eastern
direction, into the lands of Galicia-Volyn, which becomes the most
powerful of all principalities of Rus.
Teutonic Order:
Teutonic Order and Poland would not antagonize each other, instead they
would continue to cooperate in conquering Baltic tribes with Polish
rulers from the Silesian dynasty of Henrys. Around the mid-14th century,
the conquest of Lithuania and other Baltic tribes would be completed.
On the other hand, the Teutonic Order would not take possession of
Poland's Pomerelia, but would be in possession of Samogitia and major
part of modern Lithuania (except the south-western part of modern
Lithuania, to the west and south of the Neman River, which was the
region of Yotvingia).
Hungary:
Hungary avoids huge devastation and depopulation inflicted by the
Mongols and thus is able to firmly control all southern and eastern
peripherals of the kingdom, rather than allowing for emergence of
semi-independent duchies, principalities, etc. in these areas, as it
took place in historical reality between 1240 and 1300. There is no
demographic and economic decline in Hungary, which means it can
successfully compete with the Kingdom of Bohemia on this field during
the 14th century. It is also very likely, that such a stronger Kingdom
of Hungary would be able to resist the Turkish expansion into Europe
during the late 14th and the 15th centuries, perhaps even prevent the
fall of Constantinople or at least delay it.
(1) between Denmark and Pomerania = Duchy of Rugia:
History of Russia would have been completelly different and Moscow would never be able to unite Russia.
And Poland would probably never expand as far to the east as in reality, but would preserve its western territories instead.
A good candidate for reunification of Russia in this alternate reality
is Galicia-Volyn (which in real history was dismantled by Poland and
Lithuania).
However, Russia unified by Galicia-Volyn would have its capital in Kiev
(largest city of Eastern Europe before 1237), not in Moscow.
Such Russia would also be a completely different state than the Muscovite Tsardom that we know from real history.
In reality, Eastern Slavs consist of Russians, Belarussians and
Ukrainians. In this scenario, Belarussians and Ukrainians would never
emerge. It is possible though, that some new nation, distinct from
Southern Russians, would emerge in Northern Russia (Novgorod /
Vladimir-Suzdal).
And just why toyomotor, would you respond so? Have you actually read the Fomenko works? If not, why not? And if you "have not" then you must be ashamed for your postings!
I respond so because, although I haven't bothered to read the Fomenko works, I have read of his tilt at historical revisionism and I think it's rubbish. Your quote about the Mongol Invasions(sic) is a prime example of his stupidity, imho.
There is no "humble" opinion ever attached to either you or your groups opinion!
Can you ever be "humble?" LOL
So you just rely upon the words of others? How very sad!
Oh!
regards, Ron
Just the scribblings of a humble man!
And all of your posts are as a result of your own, personal ruminations? You don't subscribe to the thoughts of others? How about the Fomenko School of stupidity?
How Eastern Europe's political map around year 1350 could have looked like if Mongol invasions of the 1200s had not taken place:
Galicia-Volyn:
During the 1230s the Ruthenian Principality of Galicia-Volyn
subordinated two other Ruthenian Principalities - Pinsk-Turov and Kiev.
In 1240 as the result of the Mongol Invasion, rulers Galicia-Volyn lost
control of those lands and also became vassals of the Mongol Empire.
With no Mongol invasion this does not take place and rulers of
Galicia-Volyn strengthen their reign over those lands, eventually moving
their capital city to Kiev and claiming the re-establishment of unified
Kievan Rus. Of course there is still a lot to be reunited, but
Galicia-Volyn becomes the most important contender. In further
perspective, it is possible that Galicia-Volyn would also re-unite some
further small principalities, such as Pereyaslav, Chernigov, Smolensk,
Polotsk, Novgorod-Seversk and Murom-Ryazan. The only serious rival for
Galicia-Volyn would be Vladimir-Suzdal (since Novgorod was not
interested in reuniting entire Rus - it was rather busy with
strengthening its influences in the Baltic Sea area, as well as eastward
expansion into Siberia). Vladimir-Suzdal in reality split into even
more small principalities after the Mongol Invasion - but in this
alternative scenario, it is possible that it would remain unified. In
real history during the 1300s Galicia-Volyn lost its importance and was
eventually partitioned between Poland and Lithuania in the middle of
that century. In this alternative scenario, Galicia-Volyn is not
weakened by the Mongols and is capable of firmly establishing its
strength - making itself invulnerable for Polish or Hungarian attacks.
Lithuania is also no longer a threat, since instead of expanding into
Mongol-devastated areas of Rus, it shares the faith of all other Baltic
tribes and becomes eventually conquered by Christian crusaders and
incorporated to the Teutonic State.
Lithuania:
Although Mindaugas managed to accomplish the unification of majority of
Lithuanian tribes, he and his heirs were not able to rapidly expand into
Ruthenian territories, because those lands avoided enormous economic
and political devastation which in reality was inflicted by the Mongols.
Poland unified and strengthened by the Silesian dynasty of Henrys
remained in friendly relations with the Teutonic Order, so it never
became Lithuania's ally in her struggle against the crusaders. Novgorod
was powerful enough to repulse Teutonic attacks on its own, but not
really interested in allying with Pagans. Lithuanian tribes eventually
shared the faith of all other Baltic tribes, loosing their independence
around the mid-14th century.
Poland:
Henry the Pious doesn't die in the battle of Legnica in 1241, he lives
about as long as his father did (73 years) - dying shortly before 1280.
In the meantime, his greatest enemy Konrad of Mazovia dies peacefully
as he did in reality, in 1247. After the death of Konrad of Mazovia,
Henry finishes the re-unification of Poland (in case of Mazovian dukes,
they become his vassals) and re-establishes the kingdom. Silesia is
not lost by Poland, but instead becomes the most important province of
the state - capital city remains, however, in Cracow. Polish forces,
including Mazovian dukes - vassals of Henry the Pious and his heirs -
continue the conquest of Prussian and then Lithuanian tribes together
with the Teutonic Order. Mazovian-Teutonic border is established where
it historically was, except the region of Yotvingia (up to the Neman
River in the north and east) and southern part of the Land of Lubawa,
which go either to Poland directly or to Mazovian vassals.
North-eastern and eastern Polish-Teutonic border is along the Neman
River. Mazovian dukes during the 14th and 15th centuries continue to
die childless like they did in reality, after which their duchies are
gradually being incorporated directly to the Crown. Even though not
losing Silesia and gaining new lands in the north-east, Poland -
despite its re-unification - is not able to expand in south-eastern
direction, into the lands of Galicia-Volyn, which becomes the most
powerful of all principalities of Rus.
Teutonic Order:
Teutonic Order and Poland would not antagonize each other, instead they
would continue to cooperate in conquering Baltic tribes with Polish
rulers from the Silesian dynasty of Henrys. Around the mid-14th century,
the conquest of Lithuania and other Baltic tribes would be completed.
On the other hand, the Teutonic Order would not take possession of
Poland's Pomerelia, but would be in possession of Samogitia and major
part of modern Lithuania (except the south-western part of modern
Lithuania, to the west and south of the Neman River, which was the
region of Yotvingia).
Hungary:
Hungary avoids huge devastation and depopulation inflicted by the
Mongols and thus is able to firmly control all southern and eastern
peripherals of the kingdom, rather than allowing for emergence of
semi-independent duchies, principalities, etc. in these areas, as it
took place in historical reality between 1240 and 1300. There is no
demographic and economic decline in Hungary, which means it can
successfully compete with the Kingdom of Bohemia on this field during
the 14th century. It is also very likely, that such a stronger Kingdom
of Hungary would be able to resist the Turkish expansion into Europe
during the late 14th and the 15th centuries, perhaps even prevent the
fall of Constantinople or at least delay it.
(1) between Denmark and Pomerania = Duchy of Rugia:
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