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charlesbrough
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Topic: Why do Civilizations rise and fall? Posted: 01-Nov-2008 at 16:30 |
I want to propose a theory of civilization that explains the whole process of both history and civilization. Some claim that the continuing of biological evolution explains how we have managed to accumulate the vast cultural/technological heritage we have built up in the last 40,000 years and why we have been able to grow in such numbers as to now dominate the globe.
Actually, our smaller brain case, thinner legs, better immunity to certain diseases that biologists claim have wrought tiny changes in our genetic heritage certainly do not explain the historical process, why civilizations rise and fall or why we manage to now dominate the world in such a relatively short time. Evolution is generally a very slow process.
I propose that the explanation is that there is a SOCIAL evolutionary process going on. That is, natural selection is going on between social entities. Of course, this would have to be a different process from biological evolution because no genes would be involved. So, what WOULD be the hereditary mechanism involved?
I propose to answer that question if others here can accept my functional definitions. If anyone accepts them, I will happily proceed and logically show you the process that explains the rise and fall of civilizations and the course of history!
I define "society" as "a large body of people bonded into a group larger than the largest hunting/gathering groups we evolved to live in through millions of years of evolution---bonded, that is, by having a common ideological system ("religion")." In other words, we cannot function in any grouping larger than from about 30 to perhaps 100 people maximum without there being a "religion" (a world-view and way-of-thinking system) that we can identify with and which possesses TERRITORY. These larger social entities or societies are the social evolutionary MAINSTREAM.
Can anyone counter that? If not, say so and I will use the above to explain history and the civilizational rise and fall process of social evolution . . .
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charles
http://atheistic-science.com
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Posted: 01-Nov-2008 at 17:17 |
Sorry to dissapoint you, but that seems to be the theory of memes of Dawkins. Actually, it is the same concept: memes (or ideas) evolve in society as the animals do in Nature.
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charlesbrough
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Posted: 01-Nov-2008 at 18:26 |
No, there is really no similarity! The "meme" theory is about units of culture such as songs, jokes, skills in smelting, every bit of culture as undergoing a natural selection process. Thus, better ways and jokes crowd out or select out lesser ones. So, culture changes. The meme theory really explains nothing except itself, however. That is, it explains only the history of only each bit of culture. You get a fractured view of history that is impossibly complex and leaves us understanding even less than our present recording of history shows has happened. All this is because, in living forms, evolution has to involve some genetic-like method of retaining what has evolved. There or no genes or anything functionally resembling them in the meme theory.
Please show me how the meme theory explains what a civilization is, why it develops, matures, undergoes cycles of rise and fall, and then eventually declines and, as many have in the past, disappears forever (ending up only in museums and history books). This can all be explained via social evolution---not cultural evolution.
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charles
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edgewaters
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Posted: 01-Nov-2008 at 20:58 |
Originally posted by charlesbrough
The "meme" theory is about units of culture such as songs, jokes, skills in smelting, every bit of culture as undergoing a natural selection process. Thus, better ways and jokes crowd out or select out lesser ones. So, culture changes. The meme theory really explains nothing except itself, however. That is, it explains only the history of only each bit of culture.
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Meme theory is far more complex than that. Meme theory also posits memeplexes, or groups of memes that organize together (kind of like the difference between a single-celled organism like a bacteria and a multicellular organism like an animal). Furthermore, memeplexes interact in a kind of ecosystem. Marxist thought also embraces a concept of social evolution. In Marxism, ideology, religion, culture etc originate from economic conditions - which are themselves an expression or generalization of the root reality, which is supposed to be the "social relations of production". The rise and fall of civilizations - in other words, changes in social relations - is attributed to a process called dialectic materialism.
Edited by edgewaters - 01-Nov-2008 at 21:06
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perfectinsanity
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Posted: 30-Nov-2008 at 19:13 |
Attempting to produce a theory which explains the course of human history would surely be impossible.
I think it is much more achievable to produce a generalisation which can suggest common characteristics of the rise and fall of civilisations, but which will provide no perfect fit to any situation.
Such a broad generalisation would surely have so many exceptions that it could not be credited as a 'law' or 'theory' of history.
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red clay
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Posted: 30-Nov-2008 at 19:36 |
Originally posted by perfectinsanity
Attempting to produce a theory which explains the course of human history would surely be impossible.
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Harry Seldon did it.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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Posted: 30-Nov-2008 at 20:06 |
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opuslola
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Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 19:55 |
Well of course Harry Seldon did it! The "Foundation" series by I. Asimov is one of the most read series in all of SciFi!
But, just what did the "Mule" do?
Regards,
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Hrodvitnir9
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Posted: 30-Apr-2010 at 06:25 |
Complacency and incompetence at the highest levels of government seem to be a recurring theme in the fall of most civilizations.
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opuslola
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Posted: 30-Apr-2010 at 13:38 |
Originally posted by Hrodvitnir9
Complacency and incompetence at the highest levels of government seem to be a recurring theme in the fall of most civilizations. |
And, the result of 20+ years of such, leaves us in the position we are in today! And, it seems it is about to get much worse!
Regards,
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opuslola
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Posted: 12-Sep-2010 at 17:33 |
Originally posted by opuslola
Originally posted by Hrodvitnir9
Complacency and incompetence at the highest levels of government seem to be a recurring theme in the fall of most civilizations. |
And, the result of 20+ years of such, leaves us in the position we are in today! And, it seems it is about to get much worse!
Regards, |
Did my post above, which to me seems quite tame, actualy run the other poster from NY away?
I just have to be more careful how I treat new posters!
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medenaywe
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Posted: 05-Mar-2011 at 06:35 |
Reasons are more than one: 1.Environmental changes,natural and human made! 2.Constrained economic systems.They have produced sufficient value since dawn of civilizations. As result of this wars were always followed after. 3.New systems after were established mainly on criminal foundations without proofs,of money/capital origin,of new structure in power after.Most of the times, social ideas were used by new masters and new systems were established with small changes but new masters.
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opuslola
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Posted: 05-Mar-2011 at 17:41 |
Well, except for a few bane posts, I have mostly ignored this subject, and it was for a reason.
The opening subject included these words;
"I propose that the explanation is that there is a SOCIAL evolutionary process going on. That is, natural selection is going on between social entities. Of course, this would have to be a different process from biological evolution because no genes would be involved. So, what WOULD be the hereditary mechanism involved?"
In short, I would propose that your premise is wrong! And I respect your view, however I would propose, as an alternative, that it was only upon the ability to read and write, and translate, and copy, and print, words, that caused the explosion we seem to have witnessed over the last "few" thousand years!
And, as the Bible states in one area "and the greatest of these was", "printing"! I just "Love" to write that!
So without the ability to duplicate materials, with few or no mistakes, it took the ability to print numerous duplicate copies of important materials to actually cause the explosion of learning that occured!!!
If you would like to give me some alternative that would better fit, then please do so?
Regards,
Ron
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shokdee
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Posted: 18-Jul-2011 at 01:16 |
Why do Civilizations rise and fall?
What do you mean by "civilization"? Which "civilizations" did you have in mind? What do you mean by "rise"? What do you mean by "fall"? What if there has only ever been one "civilization"?
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Monkey see monkey do be doobie do
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ralfy
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Posted: 21-Jul-2011 at 05:50 |
Try books like Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel.
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shokdee
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Posted: 04-Aug-2011 at 09:12 |
I recently skimmed through the subtly ominous Why the West rules .. for Now by Ian
Morris, one of those grandiose overviews. The
nearest thing to a unified field theory of history we are ever likely to get,
blabbers Niall Ferguson senselessly. The book is bellybutton fluff in my opinion, as meaningful as History of Santa's sleigh 1500 BC to 1500 AD and less exciting then Amanita is aviation fuel.
Diamond's environmental and geographic determinism sits comfortably with the
hip eco-crowd but I wonder if they've read his revisionist interpretation of
agriculture; The worst mistake in the history
of the human race, where he writes
"that the
adoption of agriculture ... was in many ways a catastrophe from which we have never
recovered." (Discover Magazine May 1987, pp. 64-66)
I'd pair the two classics, Guns,
germs, and steel and David Anthony's The horse, the wheel and language for a 3 + 3 symmetry (add Cathedral, forge, and waterwheel by the Gies brothers for 3 x 3). While
David is heavy and dry, Diamond is light and easy.
I'm surprised the more recent
Collapse: How societies choose to fail or
succeed by Jared Diamond was not referenced, as this is the more
pertinent book. This work is unique I think for going were no-one has dared go
before and recognizing the significant role of the whims of the power elite. Recall
the title, how societies choose to fail or succeed !
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ===== Just wanted to make sure you don't miss this ====
A point to consider: Is America a separate "civilization"?
If so, how did it "arise" and is it now "in decline",
"collapsing" or "falling"? <-------------------- 3 questions, not 1 ---
Is it "falling" due
to the usual factors (environmental degradation and resource depletion, wars and
invasion, famine and disease, technological inferiority, etc etc) <--- this?
or because of the whims of the elite, a controlled demolition, <--- or this? so to speak.
Something to think about....
.... And when you're finished thinking about it, PLEASE POST your thoughts here!
=======================================
Edited by shokdee - 21-Aug-2011 at 20:30
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Monkey see monkey do be doobie do
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shokdee
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Posted: 05-Aug-2011 at 00:28 |
Bang on schedule, here's the Telegraph with, Barack Obama feasts while Rome burns. Do America’s ruling liberal elites think they are the new emperors? by Nile Gardiner, August 4th, 2011. Maybe he also read the Jared Diamond book? http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100099548/obama-feasts-while-rome-burns-do-america%E2%80%99s-ruling-liberal-elites-think-they-are-the-new-emperors/
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Monkey see monkey do be doobie do
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shokdee
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Posted: 06-Aug-2011 at 05:47 |
Another look at environmental determinism.
Living in a tropical climate, where resource abundance is the
de facto condition, I noticed that a tropical civilization is qualitatively
different to a non-tropical civilization.
Necessity is the mother of invention is a
well-known truism. Since technology arises from needs (to extend the body if we follow
McLuhan) it follows that when needs are adequately fulfilled there is little
incentive to invent.
For example, in a tropical environment the body does not need
coverings for warmth, so humans go around naked or near naked, in contrast to a
cold climate which demands full body protection (from shoes to hats). Within
the equatorial band, there is no need for a solar calendar, a lunar calendar suffices.
Only outside of this band, where there are summers and winters, is there a need
to track solar changes.
If you continue along this line of thought - what tropical
people DO NOT NEED - you start to get a feel for the fundamental difference
that I am alluding to.
This does not mean that tropical societies have no needs and are
incapable of inventing. They are as inventive as any society in meeting their
needs. For instance, elaborate types of fish traps are required, so basketry is
highly developed. A technologically sophisticated culture can exist in a
tropical climate, but not really appear "on the radar" of a cold-climate
researcher, looking for something that's not there and missing the nuances of
what is there. A direct corollary relates to material culture. A tropical
civilization could have all it's needs met using only bio-degradable natural
resources - it would leave NO traces.
If there are little material remains to examine for evidence
of a past tropical civilization, we must identify it's remnants by other means;
linguistic, symbolic, cultural, and so on. If we extend my notion of a tropical
civilization to include it's aquatic component (sea shores and shallow seas, nearby
islands, large rivers, and so on) then it's traces emerge.
The word naga is the key to revealing this lost
tropico-aquatic civilization. Buckminster Fuller's comprehensive review of the
Earth's natural resources lead him to conclude that metallurgy must have
started in north eastern Thailand, and that this was the furthest reaches of the
original civilization, based in the western Pacific island complex (See, Critical
Path). Meanwhile, Thai Architect Sumet Jumsai had written a book about the
water symbolism underpinning Thai civilization. Together they produced a unique,
thought provoking book NAGA: Cultural origins in Siam and the West Pacific,
which explains their hypothesis about a prior aquatic civilization in greater
detail.
Based on these ideas I suggest some ways to distinguish
between a land/temperate and a water/tropical civilization:
LAND/TEMPERATE
vs WATER/TROPICAL
----------------------------------------------------
Land based symbolism and mythology ------- Water based
symbolism and mythology
Houses on land ------- Houses on stilts (if not on water)
Land-based towns --------
Canal-based water towns
Staple food is land grains ------- Staple food is aquatic
grain (rice) and aquatic resources
Uses compression in design -------- Uses tension in design
90 degrees / right angle geometry -------- Triangular geometry
2-way weaving only ------- 2 and 3-way weaving
Design for permanence -------- Materials are re-usable
Seasonal scarcity -------- Year round abundance
Closed concept of space -------- Open concept of space
Male orientated ------- Women play significant role
Domination and destruction ------- Integration and assimilation
Hierarchical, if not mono-theistic ------- All inclusive
animism
Can we locate this lost civilization in the now submerged
Sundra shelf? Another comprehensive book Eden in the East: The drowned
continent of southeast Asia by Stephen Oppenheimer develops the theory even
further, looking at geological, archaeological, genetic and linguistic evidence.
So the story could be as follows: A great tropical/aquatic
civilization (Atlantis) existed in what is now the Sundra shelf area. Environmental
changes drown the civilization, leading to mass migration: north along the coast
to China, west along the coast to India, east across the Pacific to south
America, and south through the Indonesian archipelago to Australia. The
survivors would go on to face their own challenges, kick-starting a second
phase of development, the one we are more familiar with. At this point it ties in with the ideas developed in Guns, germs and steel.
Edited by shokdee - 08-Aug-2011 at 00:53
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Monkey see monkey do be doobie do
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shokdee
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Posted: 21-Aug-2011 at 11:32 |
Hey! Yank Gringo GI Cowboy Paleface Mutherfluffer Citizen of the United States Compadre Homeboy Hey! Brothers and sisters
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Edited by shokdee - 25-Aug-2011 at 01:40
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Monkey see monkey do be doobie do
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Karalem
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Posted: 21-Aug-2011 at 18:28 |
There was a 19th century philosopher who by way of studying history and its timeline came to the conclusion that cultures come and go in a cyclic fashion. Every culture has its beginning, bloom, and destruction. He made a long life struggle of it. Sorry but his name escapes me, starting with S.
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