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Molokane
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Topic: Iranian Diversity Posted: 13-Apr-2010 at 19:54 |
Hi there everybody! I'm new here to the forums, and I'm just browsing people's posts about Slavic and Eurasian cultures and there seems to be a lot of speculation! I was wondering if I could give my own two cents on the subject of origins and diversity of the Iranian population.
Please note that I am not here on an agenda to draw racist remarks. I am simply here to discuss theories and speculations of anthropology stemmed from curiosity of my origins.
I have personally visited Iran seldom, and my parents have lived there since their 20's and emigrated to the Americas. They have made several visits in the past several years, and I have asked them for anthropological purposes to photograph the populations as well as several of their families (Iranian families are very big and traditional just like the old days hence the 67+ million population). And wow am I surprised to see the large ethnic diversity of this very land. It's on par with America, and there's no doubt that this behemoth of a civilization was once an extensive region of trade and tradition.
I have speculated why is this so, and who exactly are these people?
Among theories I have read on AEHF, they seem no different from others nor wikipedia articles. But then again, these are only theories provided by several others which yield contradictions. For example, my mother told me she has ancestors from Urmia, Tabriz, and the Fars province. These are Turkish regions consisted of the Qashqai, Seljuk Turks, and the ancient Perisans themselves. If you look further into their speculated origins, the Qashqai are a mixture of Lurish ethnic background and Oghuz Turks; the Seljuk Turks are also origins of the Oghuz Turks; and the Perisans, I'll leave that for later. So to speak...
It seems that the Oghuz Turks are dense among the Azeri population or perhaps to a certain extent, significantly contribute to their development as a minority. Oghuz Turks are from Transcaucasia, which is a Western Mongolian/Chinese region, an ethnic group Slavicized by the Russians according to documentation. I would expect these phenotypes in depiction as: almond shaped eyes, blue/green eyes, white skin, tall, straight brown hair, wide Nordic noses, like the girl below:
If this ethnic group is dispersed among Iran, why are these so called Oghuz/Azeri Turks portraying Semitic phenotypes (coarse curly hair, bushy eyebrows, hooked noses, dark eyes, long eye lashes) seemingly 40% of Iran's population? More specifically, why is it that this ethnic group of a Caucasian/European/Mongoloid background do not adhere to their genetic maps? It is said that they have mixed with Iranic elements, such as the Persians. But are not the ancient Persians a reflection of European race? This draws me to a conclusion that many citations of the origins of Azeri/Oghuz Turks are perhaps misleading, that they are in fact, derivatives of Semitic cultures, and not necessarily partial to Transcaucasia.
Or perhaps Caucasians in Iran were simply that: a predominant group of similar skull types to Indo-European branches. Meaning more in depth, the Iranian region was a capital for cultural exchange. I have noticed many Caucasian/European intermarriages which produce a predominantly European phenotype, and this was perhaps the case with Iran as it saw many faces of different cultures. The Russians to the north, the Greeks/Byzantium/Roman empires to the west, all possibly responsible for the European phenotypes in Iran. The Jews have dwelled for thousands of years in the Persian empire, but usually are very incisive in genetic imprinting as they have their spouses convert to the religion of Judaism. On the contrary, their semitic cousins, the Arabs, and many ancient Semitic tribes (Assyrians, Babylonians, Akaddians, etc.) might have gradually absorbed Indo-European Persians and many of their tribes while adopting their cultures and orthodox practices. Perhaps the Persians were an Indo-European race, yes, but sparse in origins with a very attractive lifestyle. Similar to how the Arabs in Turkey were fond of Turkish traditions and gradually adopted their culture simultaneously leaving their genetic footprints among the faces of a morphed society. The Mongols, the Arabs, the Indian tribes to the East, and many ancient Semitic civilizations shaped an early Persia. Linguistics should not be wholly responsible in determining the genetic make up of a country, especially since the Hungarians and Finns speak Uralic languages.
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kalhur
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 08:45 |
iran at the time of achemenid empire was more mixed than USA is today.iranian were very tolrent toward other non iranian nations. only reading the scriptors of cyrus the great about the respect of defeated babylon's population give us a great insight in the iranian culture at that time. today even in the most remote and unreached tribal places in iran like lorestan and zagros mountain the population are result of racial mixture of many ancient non aryan population with later arrived aryan imigrants. what made iran a great nation is the teaching of zaratostra which is our cultural father. the shape of face or special phenotype is not of importance. you can have in a same family brothers and systers with different colour of eyes and hair and skin in iran due to the such a rich racial mixture. one thing for the sure there is no danger of inbreding in iran
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Ince
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 09:57 |
Originally posted by kalhur
iran at the time of achemenid empire was more mixed than USA is today.iranian were very tolrent toward other non iranian nations. only reading the scriptors of cyrus the great about the respect of defeated babylon's population give us a great insight in the iranian culture at that time. today even in the most remote and unreached tribal places in iran like lorestan and zagros mountain the population are result of racial mixture of many ancient non aryan population with later arrived aryan imigrants. what made iran a great nation is the teaching of zaratostra which is our cultural father. the shape of face or special phenotype is not of importance. you can have in a same family brothers and systers with different colour of eyes and hair and skin in iran due to the such a rich racial mixture. one thing for the sure there is no danger of inbreding in iran |
Even Kurds who claim they are pure are even mixed. As it depends on the location. Genetic testing found that Kurds of Georgia are closer to Georgians where as Kurds of Turkey were closer to Turks of turkey and Iranians. Kurds of North Iraq were related to Iranians and populations that live in Northern Iraq like Assyrians and Arabs. Here Y-DNA results for average per country or population so not every ethnic group will have the same make up certain citys will be different to another. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtmlKurds have no J1 |
Region/Haplogroup |
I
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R1a
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R1b
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G
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J2
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J1
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E
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T
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L
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Q
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N
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Others
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Syria |
5
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10
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13.5
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3
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17
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30
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11.5
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5
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3
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0
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0
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2
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Georgia |
3.5
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9
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11
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31
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24.5
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2
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4.5
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2.5
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3
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0
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0
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10.5
| Iran |
3
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16.5
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6.5
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10
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12
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10
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4.5
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3
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4
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4
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2.5
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27
| Iraq |
5
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6.5
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11
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3
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27
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31
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11
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7
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3
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0
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0
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0
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Armenia |
4
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8
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28
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11
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22
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0
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5
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6
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4
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0
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2
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12
| Azerbaijan |
3
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7
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11
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18
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20
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12
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6
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11
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0
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0
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0
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15
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Kurdistan
(Turkey) |
25
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19.5
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8
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12.5
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7
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0
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2.5
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6.5
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0
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0
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0
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18.5
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Region/Haplogroup |
I1
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I2a
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I2b
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R1a
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R1b
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G2a
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J2
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J1
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E1b1b
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T (+ L)
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Q
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N1c1
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Turkey |
1
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4
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0.5
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7.5
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15
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11
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21
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12.5
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11
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2
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2
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4
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Edited by Ince - 14-Apr-2010 at 10:12
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kalhur
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 10:42 |
as i said before there are no population in iran with a realy pure racial background and kurds are no exception . maybe kurds in turkey have low frequency of J1, but in iran and iraq there is a lot of J1 too. the funny thing is absence of Q and N haplogroup among azeris when there are 4% Q and 2,5%N in iran - lt seems the turc nationalist are very disappointed by this result so far they have very low altaic y haplo . may be it is different in mtdna studies because language is often associated with mother than father. i had a chilian friend that loved his mother and diden't care att all for his father and i asked him why? he answered one can always be sure that their mother is 100% their mother, but when it comes to father side nothing is sure
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Ince
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 11:07 |
Originally posted by kalhur
as i said before there are no population in iran with a realy pure racial background and kurds are no exception . maybe kurds in turkey have low frequency of J1, but in iran and iraq there is a lot of J1 too.the funny thing is absence of Q and N haplogroup among azeris when there are 4% Q and 2,5%N in iran - lt seems the turc nationalist are very disappointed by this result so far they have very low altaic y haplo . may be it is different in mtdna studies because language is often associated with mother than father. i had a chilian friend that loved his mother and diden't care att all for his father and i asked him why? he answered one can always be sure that their mother is 100% their mother, but when it comes to father side nothing is sure |
I am pretty sure Kurds of Syria and Northern Iraq will have a small percentage of J1. Kurds on whole have high J2 at around 25% average, most is found in Georgian Kurds at around 40% and Iraqi Kurds 20-25&. Kurds of east Turkey were more further away and more isolated from arabs and that might explain low J1. The and Q and N of Iran could most likely be from the Turkmens from Northern Iran who really are Mongoloid. J1 of Iran will be mostly from the south where their meant to be 2-3 million arabs.
Edited by Ince - 14-Apr-2010 at 11:34
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Ince
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 11:22 |
Originally posted by kalhur
as i said before there are no population in iran with a realy pure racial background and kurds are no exception . maybe kurds in turkey have low frequency of J1, but in iran and iraq there is a lot of J1 too.the funny thing is absence of Q and N haplogroup among azeris when there are 4% Q and 2,5%N in iran - lt seems the turc nationalist are very disappointed by this result so far they have very low altaic y haplo . may be it is different in mtdna studies because language is often associated with mother than father. i had a chilian friend that loved his mother and diden't care att all for his father and i asked him why? he answered one can always be sure that their mother is 100% their mother, but when it comes to father side nothing is sure |
Heres one for MtDNA.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 12:48 |
According to your map, it seems Haplogroup HV (yellow color) somehow relates to Iranians, of course about Persians, it has almost the same percentage of haplogroups U, J and V, these ones can be found in Europe and north Africa too.
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Ince
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 13:16 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
According to your map, it seems Haplogroup HV (yellow color) somehow relates to Iranians, of course about Persians, it has almost the same percentage of haplogroups U, J and V, these ones can be found in Europe and north Africa too. |
Most MTdna haplogroups orignated like 30-60 thousand years ago so it is
not accurate to describe the make of the population as anything could of
happend 20K+ years ago.
Where as Y-DNA has many younger origins from 10-30 thousand years ago. Like J1,J2 and R1a and G that are believed to have orignated within 10-20K years.
I have also noticed that about HV, but it is also found in small percentages in East Africa mainly among the sudanese.
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kalhur
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 13:27 |
very strange about turkey and turkish speaking people in iran is despite very low level of asian altaic y and mtdna origin and very different phonetype from real asian turcs. they are so turc nationalist and chauvinist , can someone explain this fenomen please?
Edited by kalhur - 14-Apr-2010 at 13:44
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Zert
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 14:09 |
If I understand your question well, you're asking that Turks in Turkey are quite different from the "real" Turkic people in other parts of the world? Indeed that's true, the percentage of real "Turkishness" they have is actually quite low, as they intermixed heavily with the peoples living there when their tribes entered Asia Minor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people#Ethnogenesis_and_genetic_links Read this to be enlightened a bit more, or to get even more confused. You can also see it when you look at their physical appearrances, as Turks look like Greeks, Persians and Kurds (though not entirely indistinguisable), and other Turkic people are more like Mongolians. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: Why are there no Arabs on that chart? I'd like to know how much Saudi-Arabians, Iraqi&Yeminites, Egyptians, Israelis and North Africans differ. Does anybody know?
Edited by Zert - 14-Apr-2010 at 14:16
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Ince
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 14:12 |
Originally posted by kalhur
very strange about turkey and turkish speaking people in iran is despite very low level of asian altaic y and mtdna origin and very different phonetype from real asian turcs. they are so turc nationalist and chauvinist, can someone explain this fenomen please?
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Their explanation is that Turks are not mongoloid but Nordic looking. Even tho their languages are East asian.
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Molokane
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 16:01 |
one thing for the sure there is no danger of inbreding in iran [/QUOTE] My maternal grandparents are first cousins. :(
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Molokane
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 16:05 |
Originally posted by Zert
If I understand your question well, you're asking that Turks in Turkey are quite different from the "real" Turkic people in other parts of the world? Indeed that's true, the percentage of real "Turkishness" they have is actually quite low, as they intermixed heavily with the peoples living there when their tribes entered Asia Minor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people#Ethnogenesis_and_genetic_links Read this to be enlightened a bit more, or to get even more confused. You can also see it when you look at their physical appearrances, as Turks look like Greeks, Persians and Kurds (though not entirely indistinguisable), and other Turkic people are more like Mongolians. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: Why are there no Arabs on that chart? I'd like to know how much Saudi-Arabians, Iraqi&Yeminites, Egyptians, Israelis and North Africans differ. Does anybody know?
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All of the Turks I see in Tehran and the majority of Iran look semitic. Even if Turks mixed with Kurds and Persians, I don't think they'd look semitic. I'm just very confused about these claims that anthropologists make about Iran since the general phenotype of Iran does not really consist with documentation.
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Ince
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 16:55 |
Originally posted by Zert
If I understand your question well, you're asking that Turks in Turkey are quite different from the "real" Turkic people in other parts of the world? Indeed that's true, the percentage of real "Turkishness" they have is actually quite low, as they intermixed heavily with the peoples living there when their tribes entered Asia Minor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people#Ethnogenesis_and_genetic_links Read this to be enlightened a bit more, or to get even more confused. You can also see it when you look at their physical appearrances, as Turks look like Greeks, Persians and Kurds (though not entirely indistinguisable), and other Turkic people are more like Mongolians. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: Why are there no Arabs on that chart? I'd like to know how much Saudi-Arabians, Iraqi&Yeminites, Egyptians, Israelis and North Africans differ. Does anybody know?
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From what I know Yemen has 70% J1 and 10% J2 and others. As for saudi they have 50% J1 and around 15% J2 and others I am not sure of. Will look for more info and let you know.
Edited by Ince - 14-Apr-2010 at 17:21
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 20:42 |
Originally posted by kalhur
i had a chilian friend that loved his mother and diden't care att all for his father and i asked him why?
he answered one can always be sure that their mother is 100% their mother, but when it comes to father side nothing is sure |
But if ya look like the spitting image of your Daddy, and you've got the same taste in certain things, e.g. females for instance, I guess you could be pretty sure.
If ya end up marrying a girl who looks like the spitting image of your mother, then you can be absolutely sure. Absolutely same taste, ya see.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 14-Apr-2010 at 20:47
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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 20:57 |
A maternal uncle of mine had several wives during his lifetime, at least two at any one time. No friggin polygamy law to stop him. Muslim, ya see.
My child's instinct somehow told me that, the one he loved the best, or lusted for the most, was one tall, big bummed, big boned, sharp featured type.
Ya know, today, I find myself often most strongly drawn physically to precisely that kind of female. I think I've inherited that uncle's gene type, perhaps indirectly through my mother.
Ok, back to thread, Shieldy.
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 14-Apr-2010 at 23:19
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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 23:14 |
I searched for "World Haplogroups" and found this map: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf
It seems haplogroup I has the highest percentage among Persians and then haplogroup R1a, as you see these haplogroups have the highest frequencies in Europe, especially in the northern part, I think it supports my theory of "A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia": http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27994
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Shield-of-Dardania
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Posted: 14-Apr-2010 at 23:29 |
That's most enlightening.
Interestingly, it also recalls the legends of 'Arya Vaeja' and the Peshdad Dynasty (if I recall the name correctly). So, that mythical ancient homeland of the 'Airyanam' could have been in Scandinavia. Those legends spoke of a time when the ancient Airyanam had to move away from a land that became too cold for human habitation (the Ice Age, perhaps?).
Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 15-Apr-2010 at 01:32
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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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kalhur
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Posted: 15-Apr-2010 at 00:19 |
one intresting thing is amount of R1a1 y haplo among altaic people which may are ancestor to the today's turkish peoples it is much higher than iranians nearly twice as high!!even mongol looking kergyz have much higher R1a1 than average iranians!!! it come to my mind that maybe the turkish speaking tribes like ughuz were allready very mixed with aryans long before invasion of iran and turkey and why real asian y haplo is so rare in turkey and maybe explain that both azeris and turcs from turkey do not have an asian phonetype and look molokane i don't agree with you that azeri turcs in iran have a semitic phonetype. have you been in tabriz or rezaeie or in azarbaijan ? in my opinion azeris in iran look much kurds or mazandaranis .i had many azarbayjani friends and none of them looked like arabz from khuzestan!!
Edited by kalhur - 15-Apr-2010 at 00:24
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Ince
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Posted: 15-Apr-2010 at 04:49 |
Originally posted by kalhur
one intresting thing is amount of R1a1 y haplo among altaic people which may are ancestor to the today's turkish peoples it is much higher than iranians nearly twice as high!!even mongol looking kergyz have much higher R1a1 than average iranians!!! it come to my mind that maybe the turkish speaking tribes like ughuz were allready very mixed with aryans long before invasion of iran and turkey and why real asian y haplo is so rare in turkey and maybe explain that both azeris and turcs from turkey do not have an asian phonetype and lookmolokane i don't agree with you that azeri turcs in iran have a semitic phonetype. have you been in tabriz or rezaeie or in azarbaijan ? in my opinion azeris in iran look much kurds or mazandaranis .i had many azarbayjani friends and none of them looked like arabz from khuzestan!!
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R1a1 is highest found in East Europe and India and Afghanistan. I do not think that R1a1 is a Turk marker as it is found highest among North Indians who are also meant to be Aryans. I believe R1a1 has something to do with the Indo-Iranian marker. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/GlobalR1a1a.png
Edited by Ince - 15-Apr-2010 at 05:34
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