QuoteReplyTopic: Kemal Ataturk Posted: 10-Sep-2009 at 12:25
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by eaglecap
Was Kemal religious in any way at all?
Atatürk wasn't religious at any point of his whole life. He might have tried to seem slightly religious to earn greater respect from the public and make his way towards independence. He couldn't have achieved his goals without exhorting people's (religious) sentiments which is key to public loyalty at that time. A bunch of people whose religious values were excessively appraised by the Ottoman Empire must be indoctrinated in a decent way in terms of religion.This is what he has done during his leadership, in my opinion.
I think Presidents such as Reagan did the same thing with the large Christian movement in America in the 80's
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
Saudi Arabia culture is not Islamic culture only part of it , even Saudi word is just copied from the Royal family last name , and as to Ataturk, I think he and Some Arab , ally aganist Othmans Empire by fighting to each other had already planned by Western to destroy this huge empire , in another word , no doubt , he was traitor .
Saudi Arabia culture is not Islamic culture only part of it , even Saudi word is just copied from the Royal family last name , and as to Ataturk, I think he and Some Arab , ally aganist Othmans Empire by fighting to each other had already planned by Western to destroy this huge empire , in another word , no doubt , he was traitor .
Saudi Arabia culture is not Islamic culture only part of it , even Saudi word is just copied from the Royal family last name , and as to Ataturk, I think he and Some Arab , ally aganist Othmans Empire by fighting to each other had already planned by Western to destroy this huge empire , in another word , no doubt , he was traitor .
I can't understand your post. By the way, it's not "Othman" it's Osman in Turkish. Osmanli = Ottoman. Many Turks acknowledge Ataturk made some mistakes politically as
President, but the only ones that think he was a "traitor" are
non-Turks who have absolutely no knowledge of Turkish history. Most
Turks wouldn't even be around today if it weren't for him.
<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=3>
<SPAN id=userPro625462 title="View Drop Down" ="msgSidePro"><SPAN id=userPro625462 title="View Drop Down" ="msgSidePro">Cryptic </SPAN></SPAN>
<SPAN title="View Drop Down" ="msgSidePro"><SPAN title="View Drop Down" ="msgSidePro"></SPAN></SPAN>
Saudi Arabia culture is not Islamic culture only part of it , even Saudi word is just copied from the Royal family last name , and as to Ataturk, I think he and Some Arab , ally aganist Othmans Empire by fighting to each other had already planned by Western to destroy this huge empire , in another word , no doubt , he was traitor .
Hmmm if Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic theocratic state and culture then the Pope is not a Roman Catholic but this is for another thread please.
Kemal did a lot to prepare his people for the future and get them out of the 7th century but for that you would call him a traitor- to who? Not to the Turks! I spent time in wonderful Turkiye and I am half Greek.
I don't like what he did to the Greeks but that is another thread, overall, he was good for the Turkish people.
The west planned it out - sounds like conspiracy theory to me. The Ottoman Empire, like what happened to the Roman Empire, was dying. I am sure the west helped it along but I doubt if Kemal was any part of such a conspriracy. I can understand why the Turks see him as a hero much in the same way Americans, like myself, view George Washington.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
This might surprise you, Kak Eaglecap, but he ain't honored among Kurds and we don’t have any statues and portraits of him either.
Is it because he established a "Turkish state" ?
No, to be short it's because Kurds can't speak, read nor teach in their own language. They can't listen to Kurdish music. Kurdish names and holidays are forbidden. Kurd do not exist in Turkey, many Kurds raise their children as Turks - until they flee to Europe, US etc.
Hundred of thousands of Kurds have been assimilated already; around 3.000 villages have been wiped off the map, leaving almost 400.000 Kurds homeless. Not to mention the time you get in prison for saying your true nationality, and the treatment you get ...
I've barely touched the surface, my brother. When you take away their homes, rape their women and kill their men - even insignificant animals would take up arms and fight for their rights. Don't you think ?
I made this thread to understand why he was unpopular among regular muslims, not Kurds - that I already knew too well.
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by Azadi
I respect your opinion, but Ataturk, with Kemalist secular governments and the military, constrained and weakened Islam greatly. 97% of the Turkish population are Muslim, whereof only 20% practicing. Why?
Why Turkey has to stick to Islamic values? He abolished the religion-based establishments due to the regressive impact of an highly islamic tradition on the society. I myself find that choice pertinent.
Islam, this absurd theology of an immoral Bedouin, is a rotting corpse which poisons our lives. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk
Religion is a lifestyle, I don't understand how the same muslim who believe in Allah also praise Ataturk - doesn't make sence to me.
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by Azadi
Set aside that Kemal replaced the Shariah law with the European legal codes.
Set aside that Kemal replaced the Islamic calendar with the Gregorian calendar.
Set aside that Kemal replaced the Arabic script with the Latin script.
Set aside that Kemal closed all religious schools.
Set aside that Kemal banned traditional clothing.
Those actions were necessary in order to move forward…
So why do you ardently stand up against the movements of a necessary enlightenment ?
These were a nessecity, the rest wasn't. I'm not against a movement of enlightment, I'm against how Ataturk implemented this "enlightment" of his.
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by Azadi
But taking control over tens of thousands mosques, and replacing the current imams with “government friendly” imams led to the fact that mosques were to used to preach according to the Ataturk’s dictates and were also used to spread the Kemalist ideology.
He, by no means, ruled over the local mosques. He just straightened them up for the well-being of the fresh state.
He prohibited Islamic traditions, practices and religious activites - that's more than "just straighten up". Islamic influence on social shperes were also prohipited.
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by Azadi
I’m not totally sure but I think the Muslims suffering the most, besides Kurds and Armenians, were the Sufi Muslims who got their monasteries confiscated and rituals outlawed.
Your above statement simply adds up to the prohibiton of freedom isn't factual at all.
Human rights reports show something else ...
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by Azadi
I’ve done some research regarding Ataturks reforms since I started this thread, as you may have known, and some of the reforms Kemal put into practice during his “westernization” were deeply disturbing. Ordering Muslims to use the Turkish word Tanri instead of Allah, and replace the name of the 5 time prayers and the call for prayers with Turkish names? What?! I understand calling Kurds “mountain Turks” (unlike sea and jungle Turks), but that fact that he DID put these reforms into practice in a country were the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims? Not the mention that he changed many mosques into museums.
I must admit that your sheer hatred against Atatürk stands out prominently. He tried to remove/reduce the notable influence of religious values over the population to avoid irreversible revolts against the brand new system of himself.
But revolts were still made, by those capable of doing so. The rest were either too weakened or displaced to an desert place. Remember 1925, 1930 and the of aerial bombarments of civillians ?
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by Azadi
Kemal was a military genius in every way, and he did as a matter of fact found the modern Turkish state – but not though peace, equality of freedom of speech like the European countries – but though suppression, massacres and massive human rights violations.
Are you aware of the condition of the Ottoman Empire at that time? Do you think it is easy to reunite an entirely fragmented nation? It takes more than you think it does to forge many seperate partitions of a dissolved nation into a solid one once again. You have to go through the darkness (name it whatever you want) to reach up for the light. Atatürk called the shots to catch up on his task.
He built a house upon a totally destroyed basement. You got to clean up the basement first. What you're doing is simply adding up the poor positives.
Originally posted by Hypocrisy
Originally posted by Azadi
As long as Turkish military and the state bureaucracy are infiltrated with Kemalist/secularists and act as the guardians of Ataturk’s reforms and work to preserve Kemalism and weaken Islam – Turkey will be a torn country.
That's why we have a popular investigation called "Ergenekon". The state is currently purged off the unwanted bureaucrats who protect those reforms..
Until now not much has been done, one leaves - another one takes his place.
Btw, I don't want this thread to turn into Kurd vs turk chickfight like in many other forums. I asked a question, it got answered. Thanks.
Ataturk was a pragmatist, most of the nonsense Azadi writes is recycled old school propaganda, he makes the guy sound like an extremist.
Let's get a few things straight.
- Ataturk did not "ban" religion in any shape, way or form, he bought in reform, the country had a largely uneducated populace and was full of charlatans claiming to be holy men using religion for their own personal power and wealth. The reform meant, to be a religious authority you must be an educated theologian, religion must be what is actually taught in the book, the Holy books must be translated so that everybody can understand not just a small elite who can use their knowledge to keep the masses under their thumb.
- Ataturk did not ban mosques or places or worship, infact he opened the new parliament with prayers.
- A religious department of affairs was established, which is quite unusual in a secular country, the Ottomans had a similar institution.
- Alot of the more extreme laws and regulations were introduced a long time after Ataturk but they used his name to justify what they had done.
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
"No,
to be short it's because Kurds can't speak, read nor teach in their own
language. They can't listen to Kurdish music. Kurdish names and
holidays are forbidden. Kurd do not exist in Turkey, many Kurds raise
their children as Turks - until they flee to Europe, US etc.
Hundred
of thousands of Kurds have been assimilated already; around 3.000
villages have been wiped off the map, leaving almost 400.000 Kurds
homeless. Not to mention the time you get in prison for saying your
true nationality, and the treatment you get ...
I've barely
touched the surface, my brother. When you take away their homes, rape
their women and kill their men - even insignificant animals would take
up arms and fight for their rights. Don't you think ?"
Dont make terorist propoganda here. This is the lies and propgandist sources used by pkk/kongre gel terroist organisation.
İm in turkey living here from my born. Peoples can talk which language they want. Look the streets , cafes other places you will see that. İ have kurd friends they talk too. lots of childrens dont know turkish but know kurdish before go to the schools in east anatolia. So how can kurdish be banned. İts a lie used by terroists.
Hundresds of thousand Turks assimilated by kurds. lots of cities populated by turks at the start of Turkis republic now mostly populated by kurdish ones.
İ will give an example from myself. my surname is balabanli. balabanli beloging to avşars who is one of oguz tribes. we comed anatolia with the other oğuz tribes, and go the bulgaria at 1550s. They turned back to anatolia at 1887-1888 Ottoman Russia war. (like most of Turks in bulgaria , macedoania). Some of balabanli go to the thrace, some of them east anatolia. ı come from who go to thrace. But now other ones who got other way they speak kurdish and know themselves kurd. they assimilated by kurds there. So we cant talk a assimilation of kurds. Because its not.
Abuot villages and homeles kurds. Who do it. İ clearly know it. Pkk teroristes. Pkk a terroist organnization who is poltical aim to seprate the Turkey and found a free kurdistan. How pkk founded? İts first offansive start on kurds. They killed most of the kurds to fear hem. They killed which kurds rezist and not support their organization. Whats their firs big attemp ? tehy killed 30 civilians ina a bus. They burn down the villages who dont support them. Killed, kidnapped childs and womans. ı can show lots of photogrph who civilians killed by pkk teroristes.
İn turkey kurds or other peopes have same rights. No differences between. we haved kurd president, prime ministers. Lots of parlimenter,s in our parlimnt today.
İm in turkey living here from my born. Peoples can talk which language they want. Look the streets , cafes other places you will see that. İ have kurd friends they talk too. lots of childrens dont know turkish but know kurdish before go to the schools in east anatolia. So how can kurdish be banned. İts a lie used by terroists.
Please look Turkey's 1980.Kurdish language was banned but Ozal lifted
İm in turkey living here from my born. Peoples can talk which language they want. Look the streets , cafes other places you will see that. İ have kurd friends they talk too. lots of childrens dont know turkish but know kurdish before go to the schools in east anatolia. So how can kurdish be banned. İts a lie used by terroists.
Please look Turkey's 1980.Kurdish language was banned but Ozal lifted
there was a coup in Turkey at 1980. Generals ruled about 4 year to country. and it isn only kurdish . All the languages expect Turkish. it isnt appliyed because of its stupidness. lots of bad thing done to the people at this times. Turks , kurds etc, to all the poplation. But it was past and ım talking about today, not past.
Today we have a goverment tv which talking kurdish only.
Messopotamian, bra - talking to nationalists is like talking to a wall.
Iskit, Kurds in northern part of Kurdistan can write, print and say whatever and whenever they want. Are you happy now ? /gives cookie
There is nowhere like northen part of kurdistan. There are kurds who live in ıraq, Turkey, iran etc. As a Turk we have no problems with Kurds. But have huge problem wit teroristes like yuo.
I need to discuss with you, or you won't quit posting kemalist agenda on this forum. *sigh*
First, a Kurd who does not recognize Kurdistan as a whole, is not Kurdish. Therefore I do not believe you have any Kurdish friends (as you have stated in many other threads), if you had - they would not hang out with your kind. I lived in Turkey, Ankara to be specific, for many years, alongside real Turks - musicians, soldiers, mechanics, lawyers, you-name-it, so I know. I now have Turkish friends in Norway, and each and everyone of them fled Turkey because of the brutal general-ruled terror regime in Turkey. Here they learn the truth behind the Turkish leaders, and the way they treated, and still treat, Kurds, Armenians and many, many other nationalities within their artificial boarders. Turks here are proud of their true history, and they don't need to hide behind fake and artificially re-wroten historybooks.
If you call PKK terrorist, you have to call the Turkish military-ruled government that same. Take PKK's actions and multiply them by 10.000, the number you get is very, very close to the terrorist actions made by your government.
To the main point, DO NOT come with false statements and accusations.
Kurds in northern part of Kurdistan are mostly poor farmers living in very bad conditions. Some of them have to build houses inside of caves, because they refuse to live inside the paperhouses the government lends out. The women are being raped, the men are trying to forget their misery by drinking and taking narcotics, the children are either being taught up as Turks, so that they can have opportunities for the future, or leaving to the mountains - or taken into the army.
Of course some Kurds have gotten out of the misery, but they're still way beyond the Turks both economically and socially, even though they have a longer and more rich culture and history.
(TRT-SHESH/TRT6, the state sponsored television is filled up with kemalist propaganda. That's the reason no Kurd ever watches it. It never, ever, mentions Kurdistan, Kurdish history, Kurdish leaders, Kurdish human rights and so on. Not one famous Kurdish artist or entertainer wants to join and help develop this channel.
There are 20 million Kurds in North-Kurdistan, with tens of thousands of famous Kurdish musicians and entertainers - but not ONE of them wants to join TRT-SHESH. Why ?! Well, Rojin did join - but when she saw what the reason behind the founding of the channel was - she left at once. Sivan Perwer, Ciwan Haco, Ibrahim Tatlises, Mahsum Kirmizgul, Alisan, Koma Berxudan - they're all VERY famous Kurdish artists in North-Kurdistan - but none of them thanked yes to the offer of joining the channel. Why ?) Please stop all this, Turks love Kurds BS. I know from experience that Turks between the age of 10-25 are the worst nationalists ever. When they get older they know who manipulated them, but they can't do anything - because of the military and the generals.
Btw, put in how you want, I'm a member of PDKI - Party Demokrati Kurdistani Iran.
Find ONE terrorist-move this organization has done, and I give you the right to call me terrorist. Until then leave your nazi-kemalist-ideology in your pocket, mr. genocide-denier.
Not now and never ever, the Turkish government and it's leaders have never done something to help the Kurds only - this is a basic bi-effect of it's reforms made to try joining the EU.
But well - if I write and say that Turkey will punish me and put me in prison for trying to humiliate the Turkish republic and military....
Brother, nothing is done for the Kurds - it's just funny to see a Turkish reform hitting back at their face. I suppose you know our saying; no friends but the mountains.
He is seen traitor among some muslim group. Because he wasn't islamist leader.
They understand and accept anything in the religious way. Women, State, Sex anything should be religious and religious issue. It is their limitation of understanding the things.
There is some more reasons to add.
In many islamic countries values like democracy freedom market economy seen negative, they are against to these values. Because these values bar them harvesting the public.
He is seen a traitor because he wasn't religious leader. He didn't have religious rethoric on Jihad and such things.
He is seen as traitor by the world who are apt to percieve any thing on religious. For them anything is religious issue. Sex is religious.women is religious, state is religious, nonbelievers are enemy of islam..etc. It limit their perspective.
Also they are against to idea like democracy, free market economy, free speech, freedom of religion ..etc. Because these values limit their power on harvesting the society.
Atatürk is not religious issue. Everybody should mind their own religion as they do mind with their own bussiness.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum