Topic: Magnificent article about ancient Macedonia Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 13:25
Originally posted by Flipper
Originally posted by Petro Invictus
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor
Petro, what are you doing? It looks like since everyone has stopped arguing with you about this stuff for the moment you have resorted to arguing with yourself!
Isn't there anything else under the sun that you are interested in and that you can discuss with some shred of objectivity without tying Macedonia into it somehow?
Isn't there anything else under the blue sky, regarding Macedonia, that you are interested in, which you can discuss with me rather than the "Greekness" of it?
I believe the article we are discussing here is about Macedonia.
Who said Byzantine Emperor is Greek? Or am i badly mistaken?
Exactly? Who said that? Are trying to put words in my moth now Flipper! What I was doing is called "mirroring" in debates, whereby I tell one (int his case Byzantine Emperor) what I am hearing you say, so you can correct any misperceptions.
Your "technique" of putting words in my mouth is even worse than "pivoting"! It is called "manipulative" summing up, and it is totally wrong in my case...
Are you still going on a personal level Petro? Wait until tonight...Until then look at your post and see if there's anything you can correct before it can be used against you
Are you still going on a personal level Petro? Wait until tonight...Until then look at your post and see if there's anything you can correct before it can be used against you
I am so glad to be able to drive your libido insane to that extend that you take erotic pleasure in the scavenging you are so eager to indulge in. It is interesting to notice... take care!
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Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 16:03
Originally posted by Petro Invictus
Isn't there anything else under the blue sky, regarding Macedonia, that you are interested in, which you can discuss with me rather than the "Greekness" of it?
I believe the article we are discussing here is about Macedonia.
What are you talking about? I never did argue with you about "Greekness" or anything to do with Macedonia, really. I asked you to clarify your terminology, which you never did by the way.
Also, my question as to whether or not you were interested in anything else besides Macedonia and Slavs was not in the context of this thread but in general. It is all we have seen you post and argue over here at AE. Oh well, I was trying politely to point out that you may have been considered one-sided or "centric" during yout tenure at All Empires.
"He
lived way after Alexander! And by that time he might have assumed what
the language was that the Macedonians spoke. However, in this fragment,
the implication of "a man whose speech was Macedonian" , might mean
only one thing, that the man spoke Macedonian, a language that was
distinct from the one Eumenes was using."
By that quote you confirm that: Ancient Macedonians spoke a language which they abandoned before Arrian.
Now, you posted the link to Elias K. website which analyzes briefly what i've been saying so far. No
matter how you try to twist and turn it, readers of this thread will
prefer to read an academic directly, rather than reading 238743287
posts that you and I did. So let them read it and let them decide. Am I saying something that you can't grasp here?
Originally posted by Petro Inviticus
First of all it is Petro not Petrus! Thanks for the reminder, though I
must reject the irony. The route I have taken is a comparative study,
by taking an objective stand, and actually reading people's opinions
extensively and thoroughly, unlike you dear, whose lavish exposure
merely poses as an attempt to conceal the obvious inability to get away
from the frame that has shaped your views in a most rigid and dogmatic
manner, you might call orthodoxy. The "patrius sermo" case is a well
known example of how linguistic conformity can attain to creating
confusion rather than dealing with it.
It was not intentional sorry. Besides, in latin it would be correct (jk to calm down the tention)...
The reason why i posted that latin text is the following: (see it here
as well: http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/AlexandrosPatrius.htm)
Originally posted by Curtius
Original text:
Plerique adsunt, quos facilius quae dicam,
percepturos arbitror, si eadem lingua fuero usus qua tu, egisti, non ob
aliud, credo, quam ut oratio tua intellegi, posset a pluribus.
Translation:
Apart Macedonians, there are many people around who will understand me MORE EASILY, if I speak in the
language you have spoken for the same reason.
I don't need to comment anymore on that...
Originally posted by Petro Inviticus
More over we are talking about Macedonians in
relation to Greeks. I don't think Plutarch used the term "Greek"
though, or did he? Enlighten me! He might as well have used the term
Danaans, or Grecians for that sake , that would have sounded more plausible to me.
Again someone living way after Alexander. Can you find any more
plausible evidence to the theory you are posing, which is that the
ancient Macedonians spoke a Greek "phone"?
It is a donation to some god/godness expressed as a legal act.
It starts with "Άντίγραφον φὠνῆς" of a child called Nike. Antigraphon (αντίγραφο) means "copy" and "φωνής" means "of voice". Some lines below when the the parents and age of the girl are mentioned, we read "φωνῇ μακεδονικήν".
This is exactly what i was talking about when i said that the standardized writting does not produce a dialect,
likewise all modern european writting systems. You can't guess guess
for example from a swedish text that goes like "Det var en trevlig
båtresa", that the author might be a southern swede with heavy R-accent
and different Å-accent, unless you know him.
In this passage, the text starts with "copy of the voice of Nikes
body". As you know they did not have recorders back then...So what we
know is that the phone is Macedonian, but we don't know how the text is
pronounced.
The only word that troubles me inside this Koine text is "ιλατλικω".
That is not standard Greek for sure. What I can tell is that is the
Macedonian equivalent of the attic verb "λαλώ" in past perfect tense of
"ιλαλισω". In this text "ιλάλισω" drops s and puts k and between a and
l, t is placed, a phenomenon seen in wovels of common words between
Greek and Phrygian (eg. Gk κεκτημένο (vested) opposed to Phr. Τετικμένο).
As for the Linear B parts I won't dissagree except from the fact it is
not slavic. Linear scripts were used in Greece and the eastern
mediteranian. Anatolians used it (where it probably came from) as well
as the Canaanites. There are decipherments of Linear A in Greek that
have been characterized as good attempts but since they can't be prooved correct or false,
they are not labeled as "official" decipherments. Therefore, I do not
take possition to any favour and in my view i tend to lean to the
anatolian origin of those syllabic systems. However, no matter how hard
you try, the Linear B texts are so far Greek language, not matter if
the writing system was used for proto-Luwian (for example, that is what
i believe).
Alexander which you incorrectly label as Macedonian, has another
origin. Alexander of Corinth ruled around 816–791 BC. Alaksandu was
also a ruler of the Hittites in Anatolia, a name that suggest that
eather the name was common between greeks and anatolians or that he was
Alexander of Ilion, a greek who managed to become a local ruler.
Now, look how the name appears in Sanskrit (inscriptions of Asoka) as well and look how King Antiochos is called by the Indians [King of the Yavanas].
Now, the indians eather got to know from the Macedonians that they are Yavan OR that they recognised their speech as such.
Originally posted by Petro Inviticus
I think it was Maria Gimbutas we were discussing here. She mentioned
Hummond in the text you provided as an image. Have you read it at all?
Gimbutas suggest the book written by Hammond and makes a summary of it. This is what she says that you excluded...
Originally posted by Maria Gimbutas
In this respect Hammond's book throws considerable light on the problem of the origin of the Macedones and other tribes which belong to the earliest genealogy of the Greek race - Namely the Ionians, Aeolians, Dorians.
So, they are not excluded, they are grouped amongst the earliest geneology of the Greeks which is divided into that three parts.
Now, have a look on what Hammond says with his own words...The first is Hammonds and the second & third is Ian Worthington quoting Hammonds work. It covers everything we've been talking about.
Originally posted by Petro Inviticus
However, I do not agree with Maria completely. I prefer Martin Bernal's Black Athena theory. It sounds more plausible. North, or south, the Dorian stock were INVADERS. You must agree to this.
You can prefer whatever you want and I don't have to agree as you say.
The question is simple Petro. Do you really believe Greeks are Africans? Yes of no? I don't want any elaboration, i just want an answer of 2 or 3 letters. Can you do that?
Originally posted by Petro Inviticus
For in the days of
king Deucalion1 IT (the Dorian) INHABITED the land of Phthia, THEN the
country called Histiaean, under Ossa and Olympus, in the time of Dorus
son of Hellen; DRIVEN from this Histiaean country by the Cadmeans, IT
SETTLED about Pindus IN THE TERRITORY CALLED MACEDONIAN; FROM THERE
again IT MIGRATED to Dryopia, and AT LAST CAME from Dryopia into the
Peloponnese, where IT TOOK the name of Dorian.2"
So
the Dorian were a pack of invaders who wandered often and FAR: from
Phthia, to Histiaean land, then driven away by the Cadmeans it settled
in Macedonia FOR A SHORT WHILE, to be chased away to Dropya and at last
settle down in the Peloponnese and become DORIAN!!!
You don't remember this but that translation is wrong and i had pointed out that to you months ago.
for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the
time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and
Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from
Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called
Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis
it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian
It
is not the area but the race that called Makedonian. The area
(feminine) cannot be "καλεόμενον" (it) but as above "καλεομένην" (she).
For the area of Hestiotis as I have bold out the "καλεομένην" is used.
The "καλεόμενον" is clearly attributed to the race. Note that Pindus is
also a feminine name and therefore cannot have an "it"-epithet.
The translation is the same all over, wherever you search on Herodotus.
O καλεόμενος = "he" who is "called" Η καλεομένην = "she" who is "called" To καλεόμενον = "it" which is "called"
Moreover look the endings which are of the same gender: Μακεδνὸν καλεόμενον
Now Petro...
Can you find a world-wide respected academic publication* that says that Ancient Macedonians spoke slavic and that is generaly accepted? As far as most of us are aware of there are two schools of though the last 20 years:
a) Hammond, Erlington, Masson, Hoffman etc who are clear about the Greek Macedonian language.
b) Borza, who says they were not originally Greek speaking but became and were accepted in the end as Greeks.
When we speak about names like Hammond, Borza, Erlington, Masson we're dealing with publications made by Cambridge, Oxford and Pensilvania S.U. We're talking about people that are being referenced in every single book about Greece and specifically the area of Ancient Macedonia.
*I'm just mentioning some metrics here cause we need to distinct a name from a NAME and filter unortodox methodology.
Isn't there anything else under the blue sky, regarding Macedonia, that you are interested in, which you can discuss with me rather than the "Greekness" of it?
I believe the article we are discussing here is about Macedonia.
What are you talking about? I never did argue with you about "Greekness" or anything to do with Macedonia, really. I asked you to clarify your terminology, which you never did by the way.
Also, my question as to whether or not you were interested in anything else besides Macedonia and Slavs was not in the context of this thread but in general. It is all we have seen you post and argue over here at AE. Oh well, I was trying politely to point out that you may have been considered one-sided or "centric" during yout tenure at All Empires.
Thank you for pointing that out to me BE. You never did argue about "Greekness" or anything to do with Macedonia, that is true. However, there seems to be a consistency in dealing with this issue in a most uniformed manner, according to a model that has been promoted only recently, in terms of human history, and models that provide a variety of other perspectives are simply rendered as amateur, invalid, or inauspiciously untrue, along with the abominable rhetorics as demonstrated by certain members, whose purpose is only to discredit, not criticize viewpoints that contradict theirs, this due to lack of argumentation I suppose. This on the other hand, if not prevented, is not objected to by anyone, including you. Thence, my inclination to consider your engagement in the AE, if not centric as in my case, then as slightly biased, if you know what I mean.
We are Corinthian women by extraction. What we talk is
Peloponnesian. I suppose Dorians may speak Doric, mayn't
they?
Are those non Greek languages Petro? Note, also that most peloponesians were Dorians in speech, but here they seem to have named the southern Dorian dialect Peloponnesian.
Can you find a world-wide respected academic publication* that says that Ancient Macedonians spoke slavic and that is generaly accepted? As far as most of us are aware of there are two schools of though the last 20 years:
a) Hammond, Erlington, Masson, Hoffman etc who are clear about the Greek Macedonian language.
b) Borza, who says they were not originally Greek speaking but became and were accepted in the end as Greeks.
When we speak about names like Hammond, Borza, Erlington, Masson we're dealing with publications made by Cambridge, Oxford and Pensilvania S.U. We're talking about people that are being referenced in every single book about Greece and specifically the area of Ancient Macedonia.
*I'm just mentioning some metrics here cause we need to distinct a name from a NAME and filter unortodox methodology.
All of your posting Flipper can be summarized, as in the article in question, in a paragraph that I will repost to you since you obviously avoid taking any notice to it:
"This is why linguists take several remarks by the
authors of ancient
dictionaries, which otherwise might have been interpreted as
indications
for a mere difference in dialect, very seriously. For example, there is
evidence that Greeks were unable to understand people who were makedonizein,
"speaking Macedonian". The Macedonian king Alexander
the Great was not understood by the Greeks when he shouted an
order
in his native tongue and the Greek commander Eumenes needed a
translator
to address the soldiers of the Macedonian phalanx.
The Greek orators Thrasymachus of Chalcedon and Demosthenes
of Athens called Macedonian kings like Archelaus and Philip
II barbarians, which prima facie means
that they did not speak
Greek. Now this happens in polemical contexts and is certainly
exaggerated (not so sure myself!),
but the statements need to refer to some kind of
linguistic reality. (understated in my opinion!)"
I think you should debate this with the author of the article, and that would be
Jona Lendering I guess!
I totally support this view, and in addition I would say that the language that the Macedonians spoke, was proto-Slavic.
"Can you find a world-wide respected academic publication..."
I think we need to distinguish between those who respect the Aryan model of reading history with those who respect the Ancient world. I am sure if we consult the Arabic sources they would certainly say that Basil I Macedonian was of pure Slavic origin, which was again discredited by thos who follow the Aryan model, which now, in the light of other discoveries, such as Florin Curta's, in makes sense completely. The Europocentric view based on the Greek "divinity", has gone even that far as to render Arabic sources as imbecile, when in fact we know that Arabic historiography is much more plausible and neutral than that of the 19th century.
"World-wide" needs redefining! The world you are defending is Europocentric, while the world I am promoting is cosmopolitan.
abominable rhetorics as demonstrated by certain members, whose purpose is only to discredit, not criticize viewpoints that contradict theirs, this due to lack of argumentation I suppose. This on the other hand, if not prevented, is not objected to by anyone, including you. Thence, my inclination to consider your engagement in the AE, if not centric as in my case, then as slightly biased, if you know what I mean.
If you are refering to me, say it by my name, Flipper. I don't really like to be refered in 3rd person while i'm present. As for the characterizations, the forum will judge me as a whole.
Can you find a world-wide respected academic publication* that says that Ancient Macedonians spoke slavic and that is generaly accepted? As far as most of us are aware of there are two schools of though the last 20 years:
a) Hammond, Erlington, Masson, Hoffman etc who are clear about the Greek Macedonian language.
b) Borza, who says they were not originally Greek speaking but became and were accepted in the end as Greeks.
When we speak about names like Hammond, Borza, Erlington, Masson we're dealing with publications made by Cambridge, Oxford and Pensilvania S.U. We're talking about people that are being referenced in every single book about Greece and specifically the area of Ancient Macedonia.
*I'm just mentioning some metrics here cause we need to distinct a name from a NAME and filter unortodox methodology.
All of your posting Flipper can be summarized, as in the article in question, in a paragraph that I will repost to you since you obviously avoid taking any notice to it:
"This is why linguists take several remarks by the
authors of ancient
dictionaries, which otherwise might have been interpreted as
indications
for a mere difference in dialect, very seriously. For example, there is
evidence that Greeks were unable to understand people who were makedonizein,
"speaking Macedonian". The Macedonian king Alexander
the Great was not understood by the Greeks when he shouted an
order
in his native tongue and the Greek commander Eumenes needed a
translator
to address the soldiers of the Macedonian phalanx.
The Greek orators Thrasymachus of Chalcedon and Demosthenes
of Athens called Macedonian kings like Archelaus and Philip
II barbarians, which prima facie means
that they did not speak
Greek. Now this happens in polemical contexts and is certainly
exaggerated (not so sure myself!),
but the statements need to refer to some kind of
linguistic reality. (understated in my opinion!)"
I think you should debate this with the author of the article, and that would be
Jona Lendering I guess!
I totally support this view, and in addition I would say that the language that the Macedonians spoke, was proto-Slavic.
"Can you find a world-wide respected academic publication..."
I think we need to distinguish between those who respect the Aryan model of reading history with those who respect the Ancient world. I am sure if we consult the Arabic sources they would certainly say that Basil I Macedonian was of pure Slavic origin, which was again discredited by thos who follow the Aryan model, which now, in the light of other discoveries, such as Florin Curta's, in makes sense completely. The Europocentric view based on the Greek "divinity", has gone even that far as to render Arabic sources as imbecile, when in fact we know that Arabic historiography is much more plausible and neutral than that of the 19th century.
"World-wide" needs redefining! The world you are defending is Europocentric, while the world I am promoting is cosmopolitan.
Now, BE, who is centric in this light?
Jona Linderings phrase has been flushed by deep analysis by Elias K., Hammond, Erlington, Ian Worthington and others.
Your answer is ok by me though. It is your view and you have expressed it. I respect that more that the previous manners you've shown. I think we've both expressed our thoughts which are available for everyone to read and judge.
Thank you.
PS: I'm not Europocentric at all...I quoted Punjabis for example in Antiochus part. Btw, can you just answer the yes or no question, so that we're done with everything? Ignore my last comment.
I expected to learn a bit more from you guys! Last time you gave me a full training on how to deal with propagandists. I learned to be an honest researcher, and at all times I was lead by my intuition and my determination to prove a point. And I was amazed to the realization that the net is full of information that reveal the truth. However, it is still a matter of interpretations, and manipulations particularly by those who support the views of the oppressors. The history has two sides, just like everything else.
It takes a lot of time to prove a point, and a lot of love for humanity to be able to see the truth. It is pointless to do it in front of people who would not even think of accepting anything else but what their policy makers have determined to boost their pride, vested in supposed objectivity, to a viewpoint that is dying out. A viewpoint that has damaged the world to a great extent, that we as humans living in this new era, should learn from and do better than those before us. It is still a shame for many not to be able to see the light of the new world descending from the highest of all human endeavors. It is the light that once the Macedonians gave to the world uniting it as one, under a single cosmopolitan umbrella. The Macedonians are again calling for the world to listen and see the truth behind the veil and undo the wrongs that were done in the past. Therefore, I depart from this assembly with only this more to say:
In the ancient times Egypt
was the SunKingdom and the Jewish hoards their
Ishfet! Let me clarify, in those times civilizations were created on several
places in the world: Tibet, Egypt, Macedonia,
the Andes... However, due to climate changes,
there were migrations of hoards, looking for better pastures! The Kingdoms were
created upon a heroic lineage! In other words you had to have a descendant of a
God to establish a Kingdom, in any other case you are just a hoard, or tribe!
The history of Egypt
is divided in several stages, which are fairly different! However there is a
drastic change in cultural life during the Second intermediate period! Apparently
before 1650 BC the Egyptians lived peacefully and in accordance with the Sun
god, a culture they called Ma'at!
"Ma'at as a principle was at least partially codified into a set of laws,
and expressed a ubiquitous concept of correct from wrong characterized by
concepts of truth and a respect for, and adherence to, this divine order
believed to be set forth by her at the time of the world's creation. This divine
order was primarily conceived of as being modeled in various environmental,
agricultural, and social relationships."
In the 1650's BC the Hebrew tribes invaded Egypt, in search for pastures! This
is even recorded in the Bible with the story of Joseph in Egypt! The
Hebrew tribes took over one part of Egypt
and forced the Pharaoh to relocate its seat to Thebes!
"Around 1650 BC, as the power of the Middle Kingdom pharaohs weakened,
Asiatic immigrants living in the Eastern Delta town of Avaris seized control of
the region and forced the central government to retreat to Thebes, where the
pharaoh was treated as a vassal and expected to pay tribute.[42] The Hyksos
("foreign rulers") imitated Egyptian models of government and
portrayed themselves as pharaohs, thus integrating Egyptian elements into their
Middle Bronze Age culture."
These "foreign rulers" or Hyksos as a term can be traced down in
Coptic as a phrase that means: "Desert Princes". As we know from the
Bible the Jewish spent a lot of time in the desert! Egypt lived in the Ma'at principle
and were therefore non-violent and allowed these foreigners to settle in their
territory which caused the decline of the Egyptian rule and the relocation of
the seat of the Pharaoh! The new principle of rule, based on lucid territorial
theft by imitating the system of the Ma'at in Egypt became known as Ishfet! Ma'at
and Ishfet! This is the blueprint of any civilizational clash in history of
mankind!
This was the first time the Ma'at kingdom
of Egypt, also known as
the Sun Kingdom of Egypt, met the "shadow of Ishfet". The main
antidote to the Sun god of Egypt
was the snake Apophis! IT was the carrier of the Ishfet! Ishfet was opposite of
any principle of Ma'at!
The reason I am telling this is that the House of Macedon was another heroic
lineage of the Sun god! It was a Ma'at Kingdom! In fact, in the Rosetta stone
the Macedonians are literally described as "the children of Ma"!
Alexander was welcomed as a Sun God in Egypt when he took it from the
Persian! The Macedonian codex which later became the Justinian Law or Roman
Law, created upon traditions and customs of the Emperor's native folks, and we
know he came from Skupi, or Skopje!
This codex has been our legacy since the most ancient of times since we are
descendants of a heroic lineage! It is woven in our traditions, songs, dances,
respect for all, love of freedom, human rights, equality through diversity!
The Macedonian identity is that of cosmopolitanism! It was Alexander's legacy
ever since he mixed 10 000 of Macedonian men with Persian women! The most
famous wedding ceremony of all times!!! We have the responsibility to carry on
with the Ma'at principle of: "truth, order—law, morality, and justice
(sometimes personified as a goddess)". Our Justice must prevail against
the Ishfet that has been given to us! Who do you think is the Macedonian
Ishfet, if the Hebrew tribes were for the Egyptians? Could it be that the Doric
tribes who invaded the Balkans and destroyed the Mycenaean and Minoan
civilizations, which were the predecessors of the House of Macedon! After all
the Qumran scrolls reveal that the mythical fathers of the Macedonians were
Myce, Mino, and Makedon! The Doric tribes
introduced what was to be known as the Greek Dark Ages:
During that time: "The writing of Greek language appears to cease."
And it goes further:
"The Greeks of the Dark Age lived in fewer and smaller settlements suggesting
famine and depopulation."
"The palace centers and outlying settlements of the Mycenaean’s highly
organized culture began to be abandoned or destroyed."
"The kingdoms and elaborate systems of the Mycenaean culture were
gone."
"Many explanations attribute the fall of the Mycenaean civilization to
environmental catastrophe combined with a Dorian invasion. Whatever the reason,
there was an irrevocable systems collapse which resulted in the complete
failure of two civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean
region."
"In the Dark Ages after the collapse of the palace cultures, there were no
more monumental stone buildings, writing ceased, vital trade links were lost,
and towns and villages were abandoned. The population of Greece fell and
the world of organized state armies, kings, officials, and redistributive
systems disappeared."
And these facts reveal the pack mentality that replaced the Ma'at one!
"Greece
in this time was divided into independent regions known as demos. A demos
contained the main town and outlying settlements. The title of a war leader in
this time was basileus; such a leader was not quite a king, but held a position
of power with a limitation of his powers over others."
"The syllabary of the Mycenaean Linear B script was replaced with a new
alphabet system, adopted from the Phoenicians. The Greeks adapted the
Phoenician alphabet, notably introducing scripts for vowel sounds and creating
the first truly alphabetic (as opposed to syllabic) writing system. The adapted
alphabet quickly spread throughout the Mediterranean and was used to write not
only the Greek language, but also other languages in the Eastern
Mediterranean. As Greece
sent out colonies west towards Sicily and Italy, the
influence of their new alphabet extended further."
"Most Greeks did not live in isolated farmsteads but in small settlements.
Law was customary and most disputes were resolved by the village chieftain
(basileus) or a simple council of elders. Murder was a private affair with
settlement through material compensation or exile."
This all caused a new period in Greece
known as Archaic! Since the Archaic period followed the Greek Dark Ages, and
saw significant advancements in political theory, and the rise of democracy,
philosophy, theatre, poetry, as well as the revitalization of the written
language (which had been lost during the Dark Ages), the term archaic was
extended to these aspects as well.
The newly arrived Doric tribes who destroyed the two kingdoms established a new
rule, since they could not provide the lineage, and they called it democracy!
It was the city-states that started developing on these grounds that later saw
themselves as civilized in comparison with the barbaric Macedonians to the
north, who were still followers of the "old system", while the Greeks
saw themselves as modern and civilized and democratic! It was this vision of
democracy that has blinded the western mind in the 19th century, which proved
beneficiary to Greece and so
devastating to Macedonia!
The difference between the city-states ruled by a pack mentality or Ishfet, and
the Sun God mentality of the Ma'at in the Kindom of Macedon was that of
"democracy" (based on slavery and discrimination), and monarchy based
on a heroic lineage and a Ma'at mentality!
Let me remind you that today some scholars have detected a lot of proto Slavic
words in Homer's works. And we know he described events from before the Dorian
invasions! There are lot of words that are still in use in modern day
Macedonian that can be found in Homer's original work! They are written with
the Greek script, but at that time it was not Greek, it was Phoenician! Used by
many! As with the Demotic! IF we look at all this it turns out that what
happened to Egypt, which had devastating consequences on the whole of the western
civilizations (something we can discuss further, since we are talking about
heroic lineages and they have a story of their own to tell), happened to
Macedonia as well! Both Egypt
and Macedonia
were the Kingdoms of Ma'at and were created in a heroic age, only to be
interwoven with the shadows, the packs or the desert princes, and thus create
this fusion of lights and shadows that we call our world today! Similar thing
is happening between Tibet
and China.
And since history repeats itself, all we need to do is take a deep look in it
and recognize the patterns. IN that way we can prevent unwanted events from
repeating to us and thus heal our karma! The best way to heal one's karma is to
love and forgive! And since we hold the legacy of "this divine order that
we should remodel in accordance to various environmental, agricultural, and
social relationships", we should realize that those who took over our land
and history, similarly to "the Hyksos ("foreign rulers") who
imitated Egyptian models of government and portrayed themselves as
pharaohs", are imitating our Ma'at! They are trying to learn how we are
doing it! My dear Macedonians let us show them then! Let us show the Macedonian
love and forgiveness for all that the Greek Ishfet has done to the Macedonian
Ma'at! Let us open our hearts and allow them to help those in the shadow see the
true light of the Sun! The time is closing up! We need to be truthful to our
teachings!
It was the Macedonians who preached the Gospel in the New Testament! Marco,
Luke, Philip and even Mary Mary Magdalene, who was Philip's sister, were ethnic
Macedonians not Greeks! Marco was never a Greek name, neither was Luka nor
Philip! The man who appeared in St.Paul's dream was a Macedonian, and Lydia
the first European to be Christened was also Macedonian! Why Macedonians! Why
the children of Ma? Why were we the Word-bearers, to give the light to many who
have derived from us in the past and maybe even wandered away from the flock!
We have done it many times, why not now! Do not detest the Greeks, detest their
ignorance! Love the people who have done you harm, after all that is what
Christ teacher us! That is that way dear children of Ma! Follow it!
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Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 21:36
Originally posted by Petro Invictus
It was the Macedonians who preached the Gospel in the New Testament! Marco, Luke, Philip and even Mary Mary Magdalene, who was Philip's sister, were ethnic Macedonians not Greeks! Marco was never a Greek name, neither was Luka nor Philip! The man who appeared in St.Paul's dream was a Macedonian, and Lydia the first European to be Christened was also Macedonian! Why Macedonians! Why the children of Ma? Why were we the Word-bearers, to give the light to many who have derived from us in the past and maybe even wandered away from the flock! We have done it many times, why not now! Do not detest the Greeks, detest their ignorance! Love the people who have done you harm, after all that is what Christ teacher us! That is that way dear children of Ma! Follow it!
Um, I thought the first Apostles were Jews living in Palestine who spread the Gospel using koine Greek. Although their native language was Aramaic, koine Greek was the "lingua Franca" of the eastern Roman provinces. And if you mean Jesus Christ was a Macedonian when you say "The man who appeared in St.Paul's dream was a Macedonian," well, that is just rediculous.
Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 19-Jun-2008 at 21:52
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Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 21:57
Originally posted by Petro Invictus
It was the Macedonians who preached the Gospel in the New Testament! Marco, Luke, Philip and even Mary Mary Magdalene, who was Philip's sister, were ethnic Macedonians not Greeks! Marco was never a Greek name, neither was Luka nor Philip! The man who appeared in St.Paul's dream was a Macedonian, and Lydia the first European to be Christened was also Macedonian! Why Macedonians! Why the children of Ma? Why were we the Word-bearers, to give the light to many who have derived from us in the past and maybe even wandered away from the flock! We have done it many times, why not now! Do not detest the Greeks, detest their ignorance! Love the people who have done you harm, after all that is what Christ teacher us! That is that way dear children of Ma! Follow it!
If anyone took this nonsense seriously, Petro, I'd be worried. Come to think of it, do you actually believe this balderdash about the Apostles being Macedonian? And if so, do you believe everyone in Judaea province at that time was Macedonian? What about Jesus, Mary and Joseph? Thankfully there are actual scholars who know what actually happened.
This is getting good. Wait, what am I saying? It already has reached a level of heightened entertainment. Petro, care to make another preposterous claim?
So to wrap it all up, the Indegenious Slavs of the Balkans were ruled by the Slav Alexander the Great who took Slavic culture and spread it through the middle east, making everyone else a Slav including the entire biblical cast of the new testament and Jesus Christ, a slav macedonian died for our sins while his slavic macedonian apostles spread the word through slavic macedonian language.
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Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 23:59
Originally posted by Petro Invictus
I expected to learn a bit more from you guys! Last time you gave me a full training on how to deal with propagandists. I learned to be an honest researcher, and at all times I was lead by my intuition and my determination to prove a point. And I was amazed to the realization that the net is full of information that reveal the truth. However, it is still a matter of interpretations, and manipulations particularly by those who support the views of the oppressors. The history has two sides, just like everything else.
It takes a lot of time to prove a point, and a lot of love for humanity to be able to see the truth. It is pointless to do it in front of people who would not even think of accepting anything else but what their policy makers have determined to boost their pride, vested in supposed objectivity, to a viewpoint that is dying out. A viewpoint that has damaged the world to a great extent, that we as humans living in this new era, should learn from and do better than those before us. It is still a shame for many not to be able to see the light of the new world descending from the highest of all human endeavors. It is the light that once the Macedonians gave to the world uniting it as one, under a single cosmopolitan umbrella. The Macedonians are again calling for the world to listen and see the truth behind the veil and undo the wrongs that were done in the past. Therefore, I depart from this assembly with only this more to say:
In the ancient times Egypt
was the SunKingdom and the Jewish hoards their
Ishfet! Let me clarify, in those times civilizations were created on several
places in the world: Tibet, Egypt, Macedonia,
the Andes... However, due to climate changes,
there were migrations of hoards, looking for better pastures! The Kingdoms were
created upon a heroic lineage! In other words you had to have a descendant of a
God to establish a Kingdom, in any other case you are just a hoard, or tribe!
The history of Egypt
is divided in several stages, which are fairly different! However there is a
drastic change in cultural life during the Second intermediate period! Apparently
before 1650 BC the Egyptians lived peacefully and in accordance with the Sun
god, a culture they called Ma'at!
"Ma'at as a principle was at least partially codified into a set of laws,
and expressed a ubiquitous concept of correct from wrong characterized by
concepts of truth and a respect for, and adherence to, this divine order
believed to be set forth by her at the time of the world's creation. This divine
order was primarily conceived of as being modeled in various environmental,
agricultural, and social relationships."
In the 1650's BC the Hebrew tribes invaded Egypt, in search for pastures! This
is even recorded in the Bible with the story of Joseph in Egypt! The
Hebrew tribes took over one part of Egypt
and forced the Pharaoh to relocate its seat to Thebes!
"Around 1650 BC, as the power of the Middle Kingdom pharaohs weakened,
Asiatic immigrants living in the Eastern Delta town of Avaris seized control of
the region and forced the central government to retreat to Thebes, where the
pharaoh was treated as a vassal and expected to pay tribute.[42] The Hyksos
("foreign rulers") imitated Egyptian models of government and
portrayed themselves as pharaohs, thus integrating Egyptian elements into their
Middle Bronze Age culture."
These "foreign rulers" or Hyksos as a term can be traced down in
Coptic as a phrase that means: "Desert Princes". As we know from the
Bible the Jewish spent a lot of time in the desert! Egypt lived in the Ma'at principle
and were therefore non-violent and allowed these foreigners to settle in their
territory which caused the decline of the Egyptian rule and the relocation of
the seat of the Pharaoh! The new principle of rule, based on lucid territorial
theft by imitating the system of the Ma'at in Egypt became known as Ishfet! Ma'at
and Ishfet! This is the blueprint of any civilizational clash in history of
mankind!
This was the first time the Ma'at kingdom
of Egypt, also known as
the Sun Kingdom of Egypt, met the "shadow of Ishfet". The main
antidote to the Sun god of Egypt
was the snake Apophis! IT was the carrier of the Ishfet! Ishfet was opposite of
any principle of Ma'at!
The reason I am telling this is that the House of Macedon was another heroic
lineage of the Sun god! It was a Ma'at Kingdom! In fact, in the Rosetta stone
the Macedonians are literally described as "the children of Ma"!
Alexander was welcomed as a Sun God in Egypt when he took it from the
Persian! The Macedonian codex which later became the Justinian Law or Roman
Law, created upon traditions and customs of the Emperor's native folks, and we
know he came from Skupi, or Skopje!
This codex has been our legacy since the most ancient of times since we are
descendants of a heroic lineage! It is woven in our traditions, songs, dances,
respect for all, love of freedom, human rights, equality through diversity!
The Macedonian identity is that of cosmopolitanism! It was Alexander's legacy
ever since he mixed 10 000 of Macedonian men with Persian women! The most
famous wedding ceremony of all times!!! We have the responsibility to carry on
with the Ma'at principle of: "truth, order—law, morality, and justice
(sometimes personified as a goddess)". Our Justice must prevail against
the Ishfet that has been given to us! Who do you think is the Macedonian
Ishfet, if the Hebrew tribes were for the Egyptians? Could it be that the Doric
tribes who invaded the Balkans and destroyed the Mycenaean and Minoan
civilizations, which were the predecessors of the House of Macedon! After all
the Qumran scrolls reveal that the mythical fathers of the Macedonians were
Myce, Mino, and Makedon! The Doric tribes
introduced what was to be known as the Greek Dark Ages:
During that time: "The writing of Greek language appears to cease."
And it goes further:
"The Greeks of the Dark Age lived in fewer and smaller settlements suggesting
famine and depopulation."
"The palace centers and outlying settlements of the Mycenaean’s highly
organized culture began to be abandoned or destroyed."
"The kingdoms and elaborate systems of the Mycenaean culture were
gone."
"Many explanations attribute the fall of the Mycenaean civilization to
environmental catastrophe combined with a Dorian invasion. Whatever the reason,
there was an irrevocable systems collapse which resulted in the complete
failure of two civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean
region."
"In the Dark Ages after the collapse of the palace cultures, there were no
more monumental stone buildings, writing ceased, vital trade links were lost,
and towns and villages were abandoned. The population of Greece fell and
the world of organized state armies, kings, officials, and redistributive
systems disappeared."
And these facts reveal the pack mentality that replaced the Ma'at one!
"Greece
in this time was divided into independent regions known as demos. A demos
contained the main town and outlying settlements. The title of a war leader in
this time was basileus; such a leader was not quite a king, but held a position
of power with a limitation of his powers over others."
"The syllabary of the Mycenaean Linear B script was replaced with a new
alphabet system, adopted from the Phoenicians. The Greeks adapted the
Phoenician alphabet, notably introducing scripts for vowel sounds and creating
the first truly alphabetic (as opposed to syllabic) writing system. The adapted
alphabet quickly spread throughout the Mediterranean and was used to write not
only the Greek language, but also other languages in the Eastern
Mediterranean. As Greece
sent out colonies west towards Sicily and Italy, the
influence of their new alphabet extended further."
"Most Greeks did not live in isolated farmsteads but in small settlements.
Law was customary and most disputes were resolved by the village chieftain
(basileus) or a simple council of elders. Murder was a private affair with
settlement through material compensation or exile."
This all caused a new period in Greece
known as Archaic! Since the Archaic period followed the Greek Dark Ages, and
saw significant advancements in political theory, and the rise of democracy,
philosophy, theatre, poetry, as well as the revitalization of the written
language (which had been lost during the Dark Ages), the term archaic was
extended to these aspects as well.
The newly arrived Doric tribes who destroyed the two kingdoms established a new
rule, since they could not provide the lineage, and they called it democracy!
It was the city-states that started developing on these grounds that later saw
themselves as civilized in comparison with the barbaric Macedonians to the
north, who were still followers of the "old system", while the Greeks
saw themselves as modern and civilized and democratic! It was this vision of
democracy that has blinded the western mind in the 19th century, which proved
beneficiary to Greece and so
devastating to Macedonia!
The difference between the city-states ruled by a pack mentality or Ishfet, and
the Sun God mentality of the Ma'at in the Kindom of Macedon was that of
"democracy" (based on slavery and discrimination), and monarchy based
on a heroic lineage and a Ma'at mentality!
Let me remind you that today some scholars have detected a lot of proto Slavic
words in Homer's works. And we know he described events from before the Dorian
invasions! There are lot of words that are still in use in modern day
Macedonian that can be found in Homer's original work! They are written with
the Greek script, but at that time it was not Greek, it was Phoenician! Used by
many! As with the Demotic! IF we look at all this it turns out that what
happened to Egypt, which had devastating consequences on the whole of the western
civilizations (something we can discuss further, since we are talking about
heroic lineages and they have a story of their own to tell), happened to
Macedonia as well! Both Egypt
and Macedonia
were the Kingdoms of Ma'at and were created in a heroic age, only to be
interwoven with the shadows, the packs or the desert princes, and thus create
this fusion of lights and shadows that we call our world today! Similar thing
is happening between Tibet
and China.
And since history repeats itself, all we need to do is take a deep look in it
and recognize the patterns. IN that way we can prevent unwanted events from
repeating to us and thus heal our karma! The best way to heal one's karma is to
love and forgive! And since we hold the legacy of "this divine order that
we should remodel in accordance to various environmental, agricultural, and
social relationships", we should realize that those who took over our land
and history, similarly to "the Hyksos ("foreign rulers") who
imitated Egyptian models of government and portrayed themselves as
pharaohs", are imitating our Ma'at! They are trying to learn how we are
doing it! My dear Macedonians let us show them then! Let us show the Macedonian
love and forgiveness for all that the Greek Ishfet has done to the Macedonian
Ma'at! Let us open our hearts and allow them to help those in the shadow see the
true light of the Sun! The time is closing up! We need to be truthful to our
teachings!
It was the Macedonians who preached the Gospel in the New Testament! Marco,
Luke, Philip and even Mary Mary Magdalene, who was Philip's sister, were ethnic
Macedonians not Greeks! Marco was never a Greek name, neither was Luka nor
Philip! The man who appeared in St.Paul's dream was a Macedonian, and Lydia
the first European to be Christened was also Macedonian! Why Macedonians! Why
the children of Ma? Why were we the Word-bearers, to give the light to many who
have derived from us in the past and maybe even wandered away from the flock!
We have done it many times, why not now! Do not detest the Greeks, detest their
ignorance! Love the people who have done you harm, after all that is what
Christ teacher us! That is that way dear children of Ma! Follow it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_%28person%29
Common characteristics of cranks
The second book of the philosopher and popular author Martin Gardner was a study of crank beliefs, Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science. More recently, the mathematician Underwood Dudley has written a series of books on mathematical cranks, including The Trisectors, Mathematical Cranks, and Numerology: Or, What Pythagoras Wrought. And in a 1998 UseNet post, the mathematician John Baez humorously proposed a "checklist", the Crackpot index, intended to "diagnose" cranky beliefs regarding contemporary physics.[2]
According to these authors, virtually universal characteristics of cranks include:
Cranks overestimate their own knowledge and ability, and underestimate that of acknowledged experts.
Cranks insist that their alleged discoveries are urgently important.
Cranks rarely if ever acknowledge any error, no matter how trivial.
Cranks love to talk about their own beliefs, often in inappropriate
social situations, but they tend to be bad listeners, and often appear
to be uninterested in anyone else's experience or opinions.
Some cranks exhibit a lack of academic achievement, in which case
they typically assert that academic training in the subject of their
crank belief is not only unnecessary for discovering "the truth", but
actively harmful because they believe it "poisons" the minds by
teaching falsehoods. Others greatly exaggerate their personal
achievements, and may insist that some alleged achievement in some
entirely unrelated area of human endeavor implies that their cranky
opinion should be taken seriously.
Some cranks claim vast knowledge of any relevant literature, while
others claim that familiarity with previous work is entirely
unnecessary; regardless, cranks inevitably reveal that whether or not
they believe themselves to be knowledgeable concerning relevant matters
of fact, mainstream opinion, or previous work, they are not in fact
well-informed concerning the topic of their belief.
In addition, many cranks
seriously misunderstand the mainstream opinion to which they believe that they are objecting,
stress that they have been working out their ideas for many
decades, and claim that this fact alone entails that their belief
cannot be dismissed as resting upon some simple error,
compare themselves with Galileo or Copernicus, implying that the mere unpopularity of some belief is in itself evidence of plausibility,
claim that their ideas are being suppressed by secret intelligence
organizations, mainstream science, powerful business interests, or
other groups which, they allege, are terrified by the possibility of
their allegedly revolutionary insights becoming widely known,
appear to regard themselves as persons of unique historical importance.
Cranks who contradict some mainstream opinion in some highly technical field, such as mathematics or physics, almost always
exhibit a marked lack of technical ability,
misunderstand or fail to use standard notation and terminology,
ignore fine distinctions which are essential to correctly understanding mainstream belief.
That is, cranks tend to ignore any previous insights which have been
proven by experience to facilitate discussion and analysis of the topic
of their cranky claims; indeed, they often assert that these
innovations obscure rather than clarify the situation.[3]
In addition, cranky scientific "theories" do not in fact qualify as theories
as this term is commonly understood within science. For example, crank
"theories" in physics typically fail to result in testable predictions,
which makes them unfalsifiable and hence unscientific.
Perhaps surprisingly, many cranks may appear quite normal when they
are not passionately expounding their cranky belief, and they may even
be successful in careers unrelated to their cranky belief. Others can
(charitably) be characterized as underachievers in all walks of life.
Science fiction author and critic Bruce Sterling noted in his essay in CATSCAN 13:[4]
Online communication can wonderfully liberate the tender soul of
some well-meaning personage who, for whatever reason, is physically
uncharismatic. Unfortunately, online communication also fertilizes the
eccentricities of hopeless cranks, who at last find themselves in firm
possession of a wondrous soapbox that the Trilateral Commission and the Men In Black had previously denied them.
The psychology of cranks
A widely quoted study by two Cornell University
psychologists, Justin Kruger and David Dunning, is often thought to
bear directly upon a striking and virtually universal characteristic of
cranks: they simultaneously overestimate their own knowledge and
ability and underestimate that of other persons, including that of
acknowledged experts in the field.[Quotation needed from source]
Kruger and Dunning hypothesized that with regard to a typical skill which humans may possess in greater or lesser degree:[5]
incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill,
incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others,
incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy,
if they can be trained to improve their own skill level, these
individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of
skill.
They confirmed these hypotheses in a series of tests.
These results are taken to explain why cranks so often seem to
represent, not individuals with an exceptional degree of knowledge, but
rather individuals with an exceptional degree of ignorance concerning
the subject of their cranky belief.
As noted above, in addition to a general lack of ability to
accurately assess their own skills and knowledge, many cranks also
exhibit deficiencies in reading comprehension, logical reasoning, and
other cognitive abnormalities, which may contribute both to how they
arrive at some bizarre counterfactual belief in the first place, and to
how they are able to cling to such a belief in the face of all
objections.
Many cranks seem to exhibit certain symptoms of grandiosity or megalomania.
This may perhaps also be understood, in terms of the phenomenon studied
by Kruger and Dunning, as resulting from a simultaneous overinflation
of their own social value and underestimation of the social value of
others.
"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."
It was the Macedonians who preached the Gospel in the New Testament! Marco,
Luke, Philip and even Mary Mary Magdalene, who was Philip's sister, were ethnic
Macedonians not Greeks!
Oh, I thought they were Jews....
The man who appeared in St.Paul's dream was a Macedonian,
God is Macedonian? So if he made us according to his image, we are all Macedonians?
Why Macedonians! Why
the children of Ma?
Is this another name for Mu the lost continent?
Why were we the Word-bearers, to give the light to many who
have derived from us in the past and maybe even wandered away from the flock!
We have done it many times, why not now! Do not detest the Greeks, detest their
ignorance! Love the people who have done you harm, after all that is what
Christ teacher us! That is that way dear children of Ma! Follow it!
After this I have to admit I am not sure if you are serious or just joking.
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