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tkoletsis
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Topic: Ancient Greeks in America? Posted: 01-May-2008 at 12:31 |
These pictures are from Central America. They prove - in my opinion - the existance of Ancient Greeks and their influence on the most important civilizations of the America in ancient times. My question is very simple: Nobody has ever looked at these evidences which exists in almost all the archaeological areas of America?
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tkoletsis
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Posted: 01-May-2008 at 12:32 |
Uxmal Mexico. The Governor's palace.
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tkoletsis
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Posted: 01-May-2008 at 12:36 |
Cycladic krater from 650 BC. The highlighted meander is exactly the same as the decorated relief from the governor's palace of Uxmal.
More details and more photos about the subject at :
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Posted: 01-May-2008 at 13:31 |
Stylistic similarities are not considered proofs of contact at all.
You find Greek patterns not only in Mayan art, but in many cultures of the Americas. You also find swasticas in theirs art, but that doesn't mean ancient Americans were buddists or members of the Nazi party.
Actually, in the same pictures you show, you will find Mayan architecture was different from Greek. Besides, Greeks never invented the number zero
Edited by pinguin - 01-May-2008 at 13:33
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Posted: 01-May-2008 at 16:03 |
Yep, pinguin is right, symbols like meanders and swastikas are so basic they cannot possibily constitute evidence for contact.
Also the buildings you posted are in Puuc style, which is from the late classic and early postclassic, about 800-1200, which is centuries later than Classical Greece.
Furthermore if Greeks and Mayas had contact with each other, why didn't Mayas use the arch and Greeks the zero.
Finally if Greeks would have travelled to Mesoamerica and influenced the Mayas that heavily, they would have brought old world deseases with them. Since only after 1492 influenza, measles, etc. caused mass deaths amongst the indigenous population of the Americas it is clear intensive pre-1492 contact did not happen.
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Posted: 01-May-2008 at 16:09 |
And, probably, Greeks would have ended bringing Mayan paper besides the number zero to Europe, while Mayans would addopted alphabetic Greek writing, the arch, iron and the horse and wheel
Greek influences exist in the Americas these days, particularly in Latino countries that have a strong Roman background (and also indirectly Greek), but they were carried by Europeans into America after 1492. During the 19th century and up to the middle of the 20th, you would have found more refferences to greek goods and legends in arts and literature than to our own local myths. Even today kids read the Illiad at school.
Edited by pinguin - 01-May-2008 at 16:16
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Vorian
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Posted: 01-May-2008 at 20:54 |
Oh, my god somebody has been watching Liakopoulos
(For non-Greeks he is a well-known ultra-nationalist/conspiracy maniac that sells crazy books about Greek supremacy etc etc
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tkoletsis
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 12:22 |
Diladi opoios paratiri aytes tis profaneis omoiotites me thn arxaia Ellada prepei aparaithta na vlepei kai Liakopoulo? Krima eisai kai Ellinas
translate:
Anyone who studies these obvious similarities with the Ancient Greece must be a Liakopoulos supporter? Pity you are Greek
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 12:56 |
Tkoletsis:
The Ancient American civilizations had many similarities with cultures around the world, which don't mean contact but just parallel developments. I will name you a few.
(1) In Mesoamerica the amate paper tradition developed in parallel with China. The lacquer was also invented in Mesoamerica and China, and ideographic writing as well. Jade is use in both China and Mesoamerica, and there are even some similarities in style. Hunging bridges existed in both regions as well.
(2) Mesoamerica and India had several things in common as well. Both invented the number zero, for instance -although Mesoamericans got it earlier-. In Mesoamerica and India you find games very similar to parchesi. Even more, Skri-Lanka and Peru knew the wind furnace to melt metals.
(3) Egypt and the Ancient Andes shared the "Titicaca-style" weed boats. Egyptian wall painting and ancient Maya has certain stylistic things in common.
(4) Easter Island platforms and Peruvian walls stone working are similar in style.
(5) Peru and Rome where large militare and highway making empires.
With respect to Greece, there are also similarities in certain inventions.
(a) Alexandrian Greeks and Ancient Incas knew the concave mirrors to light fire.
(b) Ancient Peruvians and the same Alexandrians also knew water presure toys, that whistle.
In all these cases what we see is parallel invention and developments. The chronologies don't match, and there is no evidence at all of contact.
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Vorian
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 15:49 |
Originally posted by tkoletsis
Diladi opoios paratiri aytes tis profaneis omoiotites me thn arxaia Ellada prepei aparaithta na vlepei kai Liakopoulo? Krima eisai kai Ellinas
translate:
Anyone who studies these obvious similarities with the Ancient Greece must be a Liakopoulos supporter? Pity you are Greek |
My friend I am one of the most patriotic people you will find on the net but I have neither delusions nor obsessions. I used to draw maiandrous when I was 6. Was it because I have ancient Greek blood in me or it's just a simple drawing? I would bet on the second.
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Julius Augustus
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 17:20 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Tkoletsis:
The Ancient American civilizations had many similarities with cultures around the world, which don't mean contact but just parallel developments. I will name you a few.
(1) In Mesoamerica the amate paper tradition developed in parallel with China. The lacquer was also invented in Mesoamerica and China, and ideographic writing as well. Jade is use in both China and Mesoamerica, and there are even some similarities in style. Hunging bridges existed in both regions as well.
(2) Mesoamerica and India had several things in common as well. Both invented the number zero, for instance -although Mesoamericans got it earlier-. In Mesoamerica and India you find games very similar to parchesi. Even more, Skri-Lanka and Peru knew the wind furnace to melt metals.
(3) Egypt and the Ancient Andes shared the "Titicaca-style" weed boats. Egyptian wall painting and ancient Maya has certain stylistic things in common.
(4) Easter Island platforms and Peruvian walls stone working are similar in style.
(5) Peru and Rome where large militare and highway making empires.
With respect to Greece, there are also similarities in certain inventions.
(a) Alexandrian Greeks and Ancient Incas knew the concave mirrors to light fire.
(b) Ancient Peruvians and the same Alexandrians also knew water presure toys, that whistle.
In all these cases what we see is parallel invention and developments. The chronologies don't match, and there is no evidence at all of contact.
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you beat me to the punch penguin, good show.
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 17:37 |
Um... no.
Sorry tkoletsis, but even the most hardened ethnic warriors on this forum generally present more than pictures.
-Akolouthos
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 18:21 |
Originally posted by Julius Augustus
... you beat me to the punch penguin, good show.
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Thanks!
And that's is a small show. There are many more things in common. For instance, the Seringe was invented both by Arabs and North American Indians. Amazing, isn't?
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Julius Augustus
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Posted: 03-May-2008 at 19:24 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Julius Augustus
... you beat me to the punch penguin, good show.
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Thanks!
And that's is a small show. There are many more things in common. For instance, the Seringe was invented both by Arabs and North American Indians. Amazing, isn't? |
amazing, i did not know that. I always thought the arabs invented those.
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Posted: 04-May-2008 at 00:15 |
Yeap. Parallel inventions were many.
I have a book on Amerindian Inventions that has at least 1.000 entries. Most of the inventions were done in parallel in the old world. There are exceptions though.
For instance, some other parallel inventions are: the mud brick, the inflatable boats, the fillings in dentistry; just to name a few.
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tkoletsis
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Posted: 04-May-2008 at 02:05 |
Does this looks like a simple line drawing?
And to be found on one of the most important palaces of Uxmal?
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tkoletsis
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Posted: 04-May-2008 at 02:08 |
Sorry but i think that these pictures have many times increased value than just personal opinions.
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Byzantine Emperor
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Posted: 04-May-2008 at 02:18 |
Originally posted by tkoletsis
Sorry but i think that these pictures have many times increased value than just personal opinions. |
As has already been said, different peoples developed architectural and artistic styles that looked similar but had no direct connection. The ancient Greeks being a literate people, is there any textual evidence to corroborate the pictoral "evidence?" We definitely have accounts of Greek expansion and colonization in the Mediterranean world as well as material evidence.
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Posted: 04-May-2008 at 04:02 |
Mayans were also a literate people, and now specialists can read mayan hierogliphs, so theirs history has emerged from the shadows. And nowhere in Mayan records there are Greeks nor other alliens from across the seas.
And with respect to swasticas, those are one of the most common patterns found all over the world. It was also a very popular pattern in the West up to the World War II, when Hitler appropiated it for nazism.
Edited by pinguin - 04-May-2008 at 04:22
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Posted: 04-May-2008 at 11:34 |
Originally posted by tkoletsis
Does this looks like a simple line drawing? |
yes
Originally posted by tkoletsis
Sorry but i think that these pictures have many times increased value than just personal opinions. |
Nonsense. A 1000 year time difference, the absense of deseases and the absense of any copying of nifty technological and mathematical discoveries are not personal opinions, they are facts.
Edited by Mixcoatl - 04-May-2008 at 11:35
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