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Sander
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Topic: 2 immense Easter Island achievements Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 01:02 |
I made some comment in Pinguins Easter island thread but its replaced by another one and transported to this tread . This way I can combine it with another thing I was planning to post already
Because Easter island is politically part of an american nation its not out of place to discuss some things in that sector. But, geographically, linguistically and culturally its Pacific. Since the following achievenments are pre contact and therefore Pacific history in the first place, I'm placing them here (does not matter much if some things are discussed in more sectors of course ).
Achievement 1
Everbody knows the statues, but what 's not so well known (never heard anybody about it ) is that the tallest Moai (some are 9 meter or more) are actually the largest ancient /pre-contact statues in the whole southern hemisphere.
No small honour . After all, also below the equator there were worldwide several ancient cultures/ civilzations that did great things with stone (Peru, Bolivia, Zimbabwe, Java to name a few ).
Next time , big achievement 2
Edited by Sander - 13-Mar-2008 at 01:54
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Parnell
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Posted: 13-Mar-2008 at 10:20 |
Those eyes freak me out...
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Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 12:38 |
It is trye that Easter Island belong to the Polynesian people and traditions and that has a common root with all the people of the Pacific, so the place is in here by geography. However, for Chileans, the island tokens are part of our national publicitary campains
The eyes of the moai are freaky because they represent the "soul" of the statue.
I am still waiting for the second achievement. Don't wait to long to let us know
Edited by pinguin - 15-Mar-2008 at 12:41
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Sander
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Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 01:50 |
Second big achievenent ? Ok. Additionally to the whole southern hemisphere, those statues are also the largest ancient ones in the whole western hemisphere !
Kidding ( although its probably true as well )
We know that the polynesians were amazing seamen and the voyage to Easter island will always be a great job. Neverthless, there seems to be some good ( and solid ) ground for giving it an extra honour:
Its seems the longest non- stop oceanic voyage ever made in ancient times ( pre- Age of Discovery) of which we even have true proof. From where ever they came; it was always at least 1500 kms of open ocean. The Pitcairns are some 1500 km away and the rest is even further. Its true that Sala Y Gomez is a bit closer but this island is never suggested. That aside, Sala Y gomez itself is more than 1500 km away from any island, so even in that case, the ancestors of the Easter islanders must have crossed at least 1500 km of sea without any possible landfall.
I cant think of any other longer ancient voyage , fully oceanic and non- stop that can be proven. Vague references ( if there at all ) in for example ancient western, sanskrit , Oceanic whatever texts , surely cant compete with the scientific evidence the easter islanders have. Such records could have omitted one or more of the possible stops/landfalls ( quite common ) that were always within a range of 1500 km. There can be the element of boasting or even fiction, to take skepticism to the extreme. None of this applies to the voyage to easter island, of course. No written or oral records are even needed here. Its very simple : no earlier landfall was possible.
Besides, most likely the ( initial ) voyage was much longer than 1500 km ocean. Its seems supra natural to believe that , from where ever they came went straight to easter island, if they did not even know the place before they left.
Good chance there is some extra stuff for Easter island promotion campaigns.
Edited by Sander - 20-Mar-2008 at 02:20
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Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 02:32 |
Originally posted by Sander
Second big achievenent ? Ok. Additionally to the whole southern hemisphere, those statues are also the largest ancient ones in the whole western hemisphere !
Kidding ( although its probably true as well )
...
I cant think of any other longer ancient voyage , fully oceanic and non- stop that can be proven.
....
Besides, most likely the ( initial ) voyage was much longer than 1500 km ocean. Its seems supra natural to believe that , from where ever they came went straight to easter island, if they did not even know the place before they left.
Good chance there is some extra stuff for Easter island promotion campaigns.
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That's very interesting, although I know some other great achievements:
(1) They were the only polynesian people that invented writing. And perhaps the only people in the southern hemisphere that had it. (Incas lacked it, and Mayans aren't in the Southern Hemisphere)
(2) They remember the first historical person in the history of Chile: Hotu-Matua (amazing, isn't?), whose memory was preserved orally since the 7th century A.D.
(3) They developed high forms of medicine, poetry, astronomy and agricultural practises that few people, besides experts, know.
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rider
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Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 22:22 |
Hmmh. The Incan quipo was much more sophisticated than our writing systems and therefore I consider their achievement greater.
And I also think that if we speak of statues on the southern hemisphere, such great buildings as the cultures of South America built for thousands of years are unrivalled even amongst the Polynesians.
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Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 23:13 |
I cant think of any other longer ancient voyage , fully oceanic and non- stop that can be proven. |
Perhaps the people who populated Madagascar? They were Austronesians, so they came at the least from Indonesia.
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Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 23:47 |
Originally posted by rider
Hmmh. The Incan quipo was much more sophisticated than our writing systems and therefore I consider their achievement greater.
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I dissagree with quipos. All the evidence points to the fact they were accounting books, and nothing else. They recorded numerical data according to cathegories. In fact, Incas had schools for people to memorize events, and that was the main source for Spanish and Indian colonial historians to record the history of the Inca Empire, which is very detailed indeed.
The Rongo-Rongo tablets have a more mysterious origin. Some say the script is very old and came from South East Asia, no matter than in there nor in any Polynesian island a script has been found so far. Other theory, that I believe is more realistic, is that Polynesians had the idea of the script when they had the first contact with Spaniards. Spanish adventurers were very formal and always carried a lawyer with them. They made a writen act of possesion on from of the islanders and made them to sign the deal. And then read it aloud. The idea of writing was there, although all the caracters of Rongo Rongo are polynesian.
Originally posted by rider
And I also think that if we speak of statues on the southern hemisphere, such great buildings as the cultures of South America built for thousands of years are unrivalled even amongst the Polynesians.
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Well, as far as I know, there aren't statues so large in the Andes region at all. What exist is larger buildings and more complex engineering. However, not as big monuments as totems made of a single stone.
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Posted: 21-Mar-2008 at 23:49 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
I cant think of any other longer ancient voyage , fully oceanic and non- stop that can be proven. |
Perhaps the people who populated Madagascar? They were Austronesians, so they came at the least from Indonesia.
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Well, Polynesians, Micronesians and Malgache people are all related and speak Austronesian languages. I bet theirs naval engineering was shared in the ancient past.
Austronesian peoples were, indeed, the best sailors of the ancient world, up to the European Age of Discovery.
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Sander
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Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 18:57 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
I cant think of any other longer ancient voyage , fully oceanic and non- stop that can be proven. |
Perhaps the people who populated Madagascar? They were Austronesians, so they came at the least from Indonesia.
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Good suggestion.
In case of the deep sea route , which seems the most likely one, the route was Malay archipelago> Nicobars > India > Maledives > Seychelles > Madagscar but in theory Diego Garcia ( below the Maledives) could have been touched on the way. From there the longest open sea leg would be slightly less than 1500 km. Of course, its not said that they used all possible stops- they might as well have skipped some- but i m just pointing out the possibilities.
In case of Easter Island, the funny thing is that I cannot even find a possibility to get there without crossing at least 1500 km of open sea.
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Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 13:23 |
That's why I really don't believe Polynesians reached the Americas.
To reach it from Easter Island, they would have need to travel 3.525 km. more of open sea. That's too much, I guess.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 08:32 |
And perhaps the only people in the southern hemisphere that had it. (Incas lacked it, and Mayans aren't in the Southern Hemisphere) |
The Javanese, Tanzanians, Kenyans, Zimbabweans and Madagascans are however, and they all were writing down what the king had for dinner.
To reach it from Easter Island, they would have need to travel 3.525 km. more of open sea. That's too much, I guess. |
Its not if you knew it was there. People have sailed Polynesian ships from Easter Island to Chile in modern times. Even if they did go they probably would just have been outnumbered and integrated into the native population.
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rider
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Posted: 24-Mar-2008 at 18:03 |
I think it would be rather difficult to miss S-America if you started towards it...
Oh, Penguin, I did mean the stone constructions and buildings, not statues.
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 00:28 |
Originally posted by rider
I think it would be rather difficult to miss S-America if you started towards it...
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If reached South America alive, of course. 3.500 kms. aren't a piece of cake at all. Not even for Polynesians. Even more, Polynesians have many stories about sailors missing.
Originally posted by rider
Oh, Penguin, I did mean the stone constructions and buildings, not statues.
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Well, in that case I agree. Just remember Sacsawaman.
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 00:42 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
... The Javanese, Tanzanians, Kenyans, Zimbabweans and Madagascans are however, and they all were writing down what the king had for dinner.
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Really? If you mean the Austronesian settlement of Madagascar, as far as I know there didn't carry writen language to Africa. If I am wrong, please site sources. That's a topic on which I am very interested.
Anyways, Indonesia is just below the equator, so I guess it is in the Southern Hemisphere, but I forgot about it.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
... Its not if you knew it was there. People have sailed Polynesian ships from Easter Island to Chile in modern times.
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Of course I know those ideas. I am Chilean
There is no definitive proof that such a theoretical trip ever happened, though.
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
... Even if they did go they probably would just have been outnumbered and integrated into the native population. |
Certainly. If that ever happened, the most likely would be it was a one-way-trip.
For instance, the tree of bread and pigs were unknown in South America in pre-contact times. If visits were routinary, then certainly those animals would have existed in the Americas as well.
The only evidence that may point to a possible contact are:
(1) The presence of sweet potato in Polynesia; which could have spread after columbus, anyways, but nobody is certain.
(2) The Araucanian (Mapuche) chicken, that existed in Chile before contact, and that was the only chicken in the Americas.
(3) Curantos, or sea food cooked in a hole in the ground, made of rocks, and covered with vegetables, that could be a parallel invention or a Polynesian influence.
However, everything is circumstancial. No direct evidence of Polynesian presence has ever been found in South America.
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Sander
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 05:15 |
Wether they did or not is different issue but there is little reason to think they could nt.
Some 3500 km to the americas would be rather a piece of cake compared to the discovery of easter island and some other places. The really hard thing in long open sea sailing is not to keep sailing but to hit your target. If the target aint known its a matter of surviving untill you reach something. In case of the Americas, a gigantic target ( 30.000 km from north to south ) that cannot be missed is awaiting after 3500 km sailing east, while in case of easter island they sailed ( at least ) 1500 km to hit a tiny spot.
Edited by Sander - 25-Mar-2008 at 05:39
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 11:58 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by rider
I think it would be rather difficult to miss S-America if you started towards it...
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If reached South America alive, of course. 3.500 kms. aren't a piece of cake at all. Not even for Polynesians. |
But on the other hand, they probably landed on Easter Island after sailing eastwards from French Polynesia into the unknown it would have been an extraordinary coincidence if Polynesians did hit one tiny island which they did not know existed but did never reach a huge continent. Also it would mean that Polynesians would have stopped their explorations after having reach Easter Islands. (and after all they did reach Sala y Gmez)
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 17:14 |
Where's Sala y Gomez?
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 18:06 |
500 or so km east of Easter Island, its size is less than one square km.
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 19:27 |
How on earth can you accidentally find something THAT small?
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