those brave Estonians who joined the Finnish Army and Waffen-SS
Stop there. You suppor the Waffen SS, and that's enough info for me.
I do not support the Waffen-SS, but the cause that Estonians fought for. They did not commit war crimes, but fought against Bolshevism and for Estonian Independence. Of course that could amount to a war crime, I mean who in their right minds wouldn't want to be liberated by the benevolent and well-behaved Red Army?
I think the Baltic states really get the last laugh, living standards in Estonia are higher than in Russia, and they are quickly catching up with the rest of Western Europe, they joined NATO (in your face Kremlin) and in general are realizing their potential that was for half a century held in check under the USSR.
I can't say anything about Estonia, but I've been to Lithuania and Latvia. Estonia must be ten times better than those if it's cathching up to western Europe.
They're GDP per capita is far higher than Russia's, which already tells something. They have recovered remarkably quickly from half a century of retarded economic policies.
So there your argument shatters into a million pieces again, the Soviet Union conquered a democratic nation. Good job Josif and Dark One!
Any Nazis deserved more than what they got. Estonia is by no means differrent. You basically said that you (for what was to you a good reason) betrayed us, so it is logical that we (for what was to us a good reason) got our revenge.
How is defending yourself from invasion 'betrayal'?
Every occupied country had volunteers offered to aid in the nazi wipeout operations, even the jewish police was formed to aid in the killing of jews.
Most occupied countries surrendered the war criminals after the war, such is not the case for Estonia.
How many war criminals did the USSR surrender? Not only the Germans conducted war crimes, you know.
And the Soviet Union only started his anti-semitic acts after WW2. Lucky for the jews, Stalin died before he could start a probable cleansing process himself. The Russians were certainly one of the most anti-semitic nations of the era. In that sense, they largely supported Hitler.
The USSR was one of the most tolerant nations around before WW2. The basic principle then was that all are equal. After the war Stalin was a combination of pissed off at the Jews (thanks to Russian arms sales Israel won the war against Arabs, but didn't become an ally of the Soviet Union) and paranoid (all his doctors were jewish and he though that they were Zionists who would poison him to help Israel).
Yeah, also in democracies, in principle, everyone is equal. Only that some people are more equal than others. Especially in totalitarian dictatorships with a murderous tyrant at their head. Oppression of Finnic minorities in Karelia and Ingria began already before the Second World War. During the war, tens of thousands escaped to Finland, but the USSR DEMANDED to be handed back these people, as if they were their property. After the war, we have allowed Ingrians to return to Finland and gain citizenship very easily, as reparation for handing them back (which we were forced to do).
"Yes, I'm indeed interested in hearing about how racist te USSR was."
Not racist, but just, for over 20 years, the USSR was an extremely anti-cultural state. Deporting your minorities to Siberia, desolating the way of life of traditional cultures that were formed withing thousands of years of ancestral teachings and respect. Targeting foreign ethnicities as subjects who can be murdered any time for no reason. Racism isn't the worst thing in this life you know. The USSR targeted everybody within its borders under a regime of terror and repression. That meaning, the USSR could have become genocidal against any ethnicity on Earth if taken under its control. It was just huge and incredibly dumb killing everything in its wake, having no benfits from any of the mass murders other than increasing Stalins own personal disorders. Not too difficult to see why we were afraid of you like wildfire.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
Not racist, but just, for over 20 years, the USSR was an extremely
anti-cultural state. Deporting your minorities to Siberia, desolating
the way of life of traditional cultures that were formed withing
thousands of years of ancestral teachings and respect. Targeting
foreign ethnicities as subjects who can be murdered any time for no
reason. Racism isn't the worst thing in this life you know. The USSR
targeted everybody within its borders under a regime of terror and
repression. That meaning, the USSR could have become genocidal against
any ethnicity on Earth if taken under its control. It was just huge and
incredibly dumb killing everything in its wake, having no benfits from
any of the mass murders other than increasing Stalins own personal
disorders. Not too difficult to see why we were afraid of you like
wildfire.
If by cultures that we deported you mean the nomadic ones, then they
did it because they refused to settle down and be productive members of
society. Roaming bands of Gypsies, who stole and cheated people out of
their money were common before the revolution, should those also ahve
been preserved for culture's sake?
I do not support the Waffen-SS, but the cause that Estonians fought
for. They did not commit war crimes, but fought against Bolshevism and
for Estonian Independence. Of course that could amount to a war crime,
I mean who in their right minds wouldn't want to be liberated by the
benevolent and well-behaved Red Army?
Fighting in the SS is one of the worst thigns someone could have done.
They're GDP per capita is far higher than Russia's, which already tells
something. They have recovered remarkably quickly from half a century
of retarded economic policies.
It tells that Estonia was not ruled by someone as icompetent as Yelstin for 8 years.
How is defending yourself from invasion 'betrayal'?
Joining the other side in a war is betrayal.
How many war criminals did the USSR surrender? Not only the Germans conducted war crimes, you know.
That war was about the Nazis. I'm not sorry for any war crimes that we
have comitted to Germany, since what it did to us was far worse.
Oppression of Finnic minorities in Karelia and Ingria began already
before the Second World War. During the war, tens of thousands escaped
to Finland, but the USSR DEMANDED to be handed back these people, as if
they were their property.
They were traitors, and were supposed to be handed back.
Truce on the Chechen subject, but statements here are outrageous, probably derived from the Middle-Ages. Too much "Mein Kamph" before bedtime has made Dark One a powerful nationalsocialist i see. No wonder Russia will remain stagnated when even a fraction of the federations population thinks like you.
"If by cultures that we deported you mean the nomadic ones, then they did it because they refused to settle down and be productive members of society. Roaming bands of Gypsies, who stole and cheated people out of their money were common before the revolution, should those also ahve been preserved for culture's sake?"
Refused to settle down???????????????????????? They were nomads, they could not settle down. You can't press a new way of life to people when the previous has been there for millenias. There were no productive members of the society in the USSR during Stalin, and if there would have ever been any, they would have been killed as most were. The entire Soviet state was a failure in administrative history.
Do you remember, several pages ago we argued about Russian minorities being treated badly in Estonia. Well, i think you should keep your mouth shut on that subject now as you are justifying mass deprtation as good politics, then you should have no problem with Russians here with good living standards.
Roaming bands of gypsies, cheating, stealing across the country. Sounds much like what Hitler said about the Jews. Well, then you should accept his decision to commit genocide. Shows the friendliness towards foreign cultures of the "socialist" USSR.
"Fighting in the SS is one of the worst thigns someone could have done."
Why, some nations could fight for a free country of their own within the Waffen SS. Estonians, for example. You don't care about freedom of others much anyway, so why bother.
"It tells that Estonia was not ruled by someone as icompetent as Yelstin for 8 years."
Indeed, Lennart Meri, the president of the Republic of Estonia form 1992-2000. if i remember. A fine scholar and a wise man in every case. A shame that we a have a sheep of a president now.
"Joining the other side in a war is betrayal."
Some chose the reds, some the Germans (reds - 20,000 volunteers and German - 70,000 volunteers IIRC). You mostly betrayed us, leaving Estonian volunteers of the Red army rot on the frontline to delay the German offensive, leaving us to die by the nazi scum and then you come bashing threw the door and say we didn't die for barbarians of the East. You're one sick puppy. If i only knew more phrases of insult. Argue that!!!
"That war was about the Nazis. I'm not sorry for any war crimes that we have comitted to Germany, since what it did to us was far worse."
Not to everyone was it about nazis. You take everything black and white, which is of course comfortable for you, a Russian, but pretty ignorant and blind. Well, there you go, you admit war crimes are justified towards innocent German civilians, not the Wehrmacht we are talking about here. That is the same thing Nazis said about the Russians i guess. A little of that nazi heritage has reached the 21th century by the words of Dark One.
"They were traitors, and were supposed to be handed back."
O my God, how were they traitors. it is beyond me. Just that certain ethnicity is a traitor, how can that be? It is totally crazy to say things like that. Do explain
With all of the quotes i have replied to on this single post. Prove to me that nazis were worse. You accept everything the nazis did to you and other European nations during WW2 as good politics when commited towards others. Where does the difference come in?????????????????????????
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
Kalevipoeg, I don't remember reason working with rascists, fascists, ultra-nationalists or people living in denial of history, or a combination of them, before. Why try now?
Refused to settle down???????????????????????? They were nomads,
they could not settle down. You can't press a new way of life to people
when the previous has been there for millenias. There were no
productive members of the society in the USSR during Stalin, and if
there would have ever been any, they would have been killed as most
were. The entire Soviet state was a failure in administrative history.
Most workers were killed?
Thats at least an extra 70 million deaths that Stalin managed to cover up
Do you remember, several pages ago we argued about Russian minorities
being treated badly in Estonia. Well, i think you should keep your
mouth shut on that subject now as you are justifying mass deprtation as
good politics, then you should have no problem with Russians here with
good living standards.
I don't claim that Russia is competelely fair, but try to justify the
unbfairness. If you claim your country is a true ecample of the west
while mine is populated by barbarians, then live up to your own
standards.
Roaming bands of gypsies, cheating, stealing across the country.
Sounds much like what Hitler said about the Jews. Well, then you should
accept his decision to commit genocide. Shows the friendliness towards
foreign cultures of the "socialist" USSR.
Roaming bands of Gypsies existed in the Soviet times, and even exist
today. They were never forced to settle down, although it would benefit
everyone if they were. And it is quite a well known fact that gypsies
live by literally robbing villages and coning villagers. I'm sure that
there are Gypsies who have settled down and lead a productive life, but
the roaming bands are nothing more than societyies of cons and
hooligans. And unlike the statemen "Jews are genetically inferior" this
can be backed up with facts (asking villagers about their experiences
with roaming Gypsies). If I said "Gypsies are genetically inferior"
then that would indeed give me a very fascist viewpoint. If I make on
observation about their life styles I'm telling the truth.
Why, some nations could fight for a free country of their own within
the Waffen SS. Estonians, for example. You don't care about freedom of
others much anyway, so why bother.
Partisans also existed, you know.
Some chose the reds, some the Germans (reds - 20,000 volunteers and
German - 70,000 volunteers IIRC). You mostly betrayed us, leaving
Estonian volunteers of the Red army rot on the frontline to delay the
German offensive,
OMG Estonians were abandoned in Estonia, much in the same way that
Russian deffending Russia were abandoned there. Good to see that some
people had some sense, and the coruage to deffend their homeland
against fascism.
leaving us to die by the nazi scum and then you come
bashing threw the door and say we didn't die for barbarians of the East.
When have I said that Estonians never died to deffend their homeland
from Nazis? I said that they helped the Nazis considerably more than
the Soviets.
You're one sick puppy. If i only knew more phrases of insult.
Insult me all you want, it is in fact quite amusing.
Argue that!!!
Just did.
Kalevipoeg, I don't remember reason working with rascists, fascists,
ultra-nationalists or people living in denial of history, or a
combination of them, before. Why try now?
I am a racist? Which race have I discriminated against here? If this
thread was deemed racist it would be clsoed long ago. I am by no means
a fascist, I am a socialist with the view that the upkeep of the army
is the government's first priority, so you oculd say that I'm also
militaristic.
And history can be interpretted in many ways. I have not denied
anything that actually happenned. The only gray are for me was the
whole "Estonians fighting in the Red Army" thing, which Kalevipoeg
cleared up for me.
I don't know if it is 70 million or not, but much of Stalins crimes are pretty well covered up in the archives which Russia isn't all that eager to show to the public. More acts of disgrace and shame maybe?
Yea partisans, we had those too and they fought after the end of WW2 to get rid of the idiocy and tyranny of Stalins rule.
Russian soldiers during WW2 can most certainly be regarded as barbarians, no debate in that.
Not sense, Russian cowardise to defend themselves. Leaving us to die for false promises, baseless accusations of betrayal. We had the right to invade you after the war if anything at all.
We aided the nazis more than the soviets??? What, the soviets were the sole reason for Fascist success at the first years of the war, we cooperated for independence, but you for the spread of terror and nazism.
"I am by no means a fascist, I am a socialist with the view that the upkeep of the army is the government's first priority, so you oculd say that I'm also militaristic."
Regarding the destruction of other nationalities as good could be called pretty fascist, i bet most would. Regarding your nations superiority over others as the most important aspect of a country is the cornerstone of fascism. You have both of those fascist sides strongly presented.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
I don't know if it is 70 million or not, but much of Stalins crimes are
pretty well covered up in the archives which Russia isn't all that
eager to show to the public. More acts of disgrace and shame maybe?
Even if you hate Stalin there is no need to make up fictitious numbers.
Yea partisans, we had those too and they fought after the
end of WW2 to get rid of the idiocy and tyranny of Stalins
rule.
Fortunately Stalin had a policy of exterminating traitors.
Russian soldiers during WW2 can most certainly be regarded as barbarians, no debate in that.
While the rest were Saints? War is war, your only objective is to kill
as many of your enemies as you can. And I'd rather that the Russian
army won the war and were seen as barbarians, then lost and were seen
as gentlemen.
Not sense, Russian cowardise to defend themselves.
Since when is deffending yourself cowardice? Surrendering when you
could win or hold out longer is cowardice. Not that this applies to
Estonians, as they were conquered. As I said good to see that some of
your people stood up to fascism.
Leaving us to die for false promises, baseless accusations of betrayal.
We had the right to invade you after the war if anything at all.
The fact that German Blitzkrieg tore through all of eastern Europe is
leaving you to die on false premises? I guess Russian civilians of
Belarus and Ukraine were also abandoned to die on false premises since
those countries (or rather soviet republics that the time) were also
invaded by the Germans. It makes perfect sense too-Stalin hated
Ukrainians so much and for no reason that he let them be taken over by
the Nazis, despite the fact that the army was in no condition to
deffend them.
We aided the nazis more than the soviets??? What, the soviets were the
sole reason for Fascist success at the first years of the war, we
cooperated for independence, but you for the spread of terror and
nazism.
Soviets fought the Nazis in order to spread Nazism? Brilliant theory,
if you overlook the blindingly obvious flaws and the fact that had
Germany won you would hav enot gotten your independence, but I'm sure
that an ethnic cleansng would suit you just fine.
Regarding the destruction of other nationalities as good could be called pretty fascist, i bet most would.
When did I say it was good? I said it was necessarry to keep peace and
order. I take it you mean Chechnya and that we are only killing htem
because they are Caucasians muslims. Well:
1) They rebelled, us putting down rebellion against our country is fascism?
2) Had a Russian republic seceded they would have been treated no
differrently. But they would be smart enough to settle for autonomy.
Regarding your nations superiority over others as the most
important aspect of a country is the cornerstone of
fascism.
That is just plain stupid. You wouldn't want your nation to be superior
over others? If it was up to me Russia would have the best economy,
biggest and best quiped army, and themost respect in the world.
I'm sure if it was up to you Estonia would also be the greatest nation
in teh world. As for me deffending our policies because they are the
best for our nation (not to mention we have every right to carry them
out), it doesn't make me fascist. I deffend putting down rebellion
Chechnya, but alas it populated by non Slavs and non Christians, so I
am being a racist. If I was also for putting down rebellion in a
Karellian republic, I would aslo be fascist. However, if I was for
putting down rebellion in a repbulic populated by Christian
Slavs, no one would care. So, I guess a nation can only put down
rebellions if the rebels are of the same ethnicity and rellgion as them
,or else they're automatically fascist.
Also I regard Russia as the best as a patriot. I'm sure you
regard Estonia as the best and Wilpury regards Finland as the best, it
is only natural for a man to be deffensive of things that are most
familiar to him. I never have said that rhe Slavic race is better than
all others, and have never claimed that Russia should wipe out all
minorities, although that is what you interpret as what I say. When I
said that geonicide is an option simply because unless the other side
surrenders or concludes a peace, they will wipe themselves out going
against us militarily (many more Russian than Chechens, and we are
better equipped, so casuality rates will be in our favor) naturally,
I'm the next Hitler. Brilliant logic.
Also did you notice that this debate has evolved into us arguing who is
more of a fascist (or in your case to me also a barbarian).
I had always been under the impression that post soviet russia was a place of deep comprehension for what imperialism truly is, the crimes of it, the horror of it...like germans I thought russians were, now understanding why propaganda and lies exist, what they create, and how a brain-washed ppl is the most dangerous thing on earth.
From what you have said dark_one, I get the clear impression that you are justifying every act of tyranny your past governements have exercised upon neighbouring minorities. Saying such things as your nation was simply punishing unloyal citizens...I'm sorry my rusky friend but if america takes Canada, I will not be loyal to Washington. PERIOD. How can you in a right frame of mind say all these things?
You mentionned a long while ago, that if a maniac with a gun approaches someone and tells them to do something or else they will be shot, and this certain individual refuses, that it is his fault he is dead?
I guess than that your USSR is guilty for the death of 30 000 000 of your countrymen who died in face of the advancing Nazi forces who demanded your surrender. Following your logic, it is your fault you didn't surrender, thus should accept the conciquences of your decision and shouldn't blame any nazi for this atrocity. (Just as you don't feel estonians have any right to have hatred agaisnt russia)
PS: Your logic disgusts me. Murder only leads to more murder, and not in any case is it justified. The aggressor is guilty for his deeds. Despite I think we should all forget old hatreds, you can't say Estonians are rediculous to be Anti-russian.
We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
We are all a result of what we have lived. Culture, attitude, perspective. For everything we do, there is a reason. There is no true evil, only the absence of proper communication.
From what you have said dark_one, I get the clear impression that
you are justifying every act of tyranny your past governements have
exercised upon neighbouring minorities. Saying such things as your
nation was simply punishing unloyal citizens...I'm sorry my rusky
friend but if america takes Canada, I will not be loyal to Washington.
PERIOD.
Then you will get what you deserve.
You mentionned a long while ago, that if a maniac with a gun
approaches someone and tells them to do something or else they will be
shot, and this certain individual refuses, that it is his fault he is
dead?
It is indeed his fault that he is dead, as he failed to take advantage
of a choice in a situation that allowed said choice. Of course whoever
created the situation (the armed robber/maniac) is the one ultimately
responsible for it, but the individual is also partially responsible
for it, since he failed to take advantage of the choice.
I guess than that your USSR is guilty for the death of 30 000 000 of
your countrymen who died in face of the advancing Nazi forces who
demanded your surrender. Following your logic, it is your fault you
didn't surrender, thus should accept the conciquences of your decision
and shouldn't blame any nazi for this atrocity. (Just as you don't feel
estonians have any right to have hatred agaisnt russia)
Now this is a completely differrent situation. Even surrender to the
Nazis meant almost certain death. Either way (fighting or surrendering)
was dangeruous, but tell me, what percentage of the fighters returned
home, and what percentage of the people hwo surrendered returned to
their homes? Not to mention surrender is betrayal, so they would be
prosecuted. The situation of a maniac with a gun is very simplistic,
but this is much more complex and therefore we need to consider many
more factors.
PS: Your logic disgusts me. Murder only leads to more murder, and
not in any case is it justified. The aggressor is guilty for his deeds.
Despite I think we should all forget old hatreds, you can't say
Estonians are rediculous to be Anti-russian.
Estonians have the right to hate anybody, just as anyone else does. If
they publically expres their hate in the form of assault or another
illegal activity they should be prosecuted acordingly, unless the two
sides are at war.
"Now this is a completely differrent situation. Even surrender to the Nazis meant almost certain death. Either way (fighting or surrendering) was dangeruous, but tell me, what percentage of the fighters returned home, and what percentage of the people hwo surrendered returned to their homes? Not to mention surrender is betrayal, so they would be prosecuted. The situation of a maniac with a gun is very simplistic, but this is much more complex and therefore we need to consider many more factors."
And surrender to the soviets, meant almost certain death to us Estonians too, but if we are not Russians, so our deaths are nothing to you, got it.
Surrender to to nazi Germany would have meant nearly certain death to Russians, and other Slavs, that is totally true.
A large percentage of Russians not returning to their homes after the German invasion was the fault of the Soviet government itself, aswell as the German killings.
"Estonians have the right to hate anybody, just as anyone else does. If they publically expres their hate in the form of assault or another illegal activity they should be prosecuted acordingly, unless the two sides are at war."
Your former posts have certainly left an impression on me that we were wrong in hating Russians or atleast that it was illegal, amoral and so on, odd.
Your government Dark One, should have tons of criminals to prosecute in warcrimes. Those innocents, the soviet warcriminals killed during WW2 should never see their killers incarsarated???????
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
Hmm..Russians who still think that Soviet time was good? They are either totally stupid or just brainwashed like some people were during the Soviet time in Estonia and in other countrys occupied by the Soviet Union. People here how old communist tell theyr storyes how the Soviet time was good and etc, people who have actually no idea what they are talking about. If i would have had chance to choose between Soviet Union and Nazi Germany i would have choosed Germany. Im not a nazi and i dont favour killing people because they have other religion or skin color. But usually when talking about war crimes and crimes that took place after war, then most cases people forget Soviet Union crimes. Nazi Germany effected France and England - so when they talk about enemyes during the war and about crimes, then they usually mention only Germany. But where is Soviet Union? How they killed people in the Baltic States, sent people to siberia, where many of them just died. And let us not forget whiping whole nations from the earth. So if you talk about nazi germany and the things they did, then search a bit more from the history books (too bad that many history books still contain so much bull-sh*t when they talk about WW2 and the period after it) and find out what really happened.
oo, you stepped on thin ice Unholy. You said the word nazi, in your post. No other evidence will ever be looked upon now. You are an instant Hitlerist now.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
oo, you stepped on thin ice Unholy. You said the word nazi, in your post. No other evidence will ever be looked upon now. You are an instant Hitlerist now.
Actually i dont care what other people think - if they think that you are a nazi if you dare to use it somehow, then its theyr free will to think so. I know im not and its pretty hard do look back at the 20th century and not talk about it. Sometimes i think that some people are just so ignorant and think that everything is black and white.
You would even consider living in the USSR at that time, i myself don't like to starve in Siberia for the sole reason of being a farmer or any other innocent part of the society Stalin had the mood to annihilate.
Hitlerist Germanys ideology was horrifying, but the living conditions, i think for a commoner, were much better. I never heard that Hitler starved or deported many people before WW2, or am i wrong? So, all in all, Germany of those years would logically be a better place to live. If you could dodge the propaganda, not much harm would have come to you.
Both were ultra-natioanlistic states with wacked ideologies, but the matter is, Stalin could have started a terror wave whenever he had the mood, Hitler, although very disturbed, was more diplomatic with commiting atrocities in those years.
So i conclude, that Hitler would not have dragged you to Siberian areas, had you drowned on rafts or just mass-starved you during those years. While at the same time, breathing in direction of Josif would have caused the massmurder of an entire ethnicity. Not a hard choice to take Germany for those years.
During WW2, i would probably have lived in the Scottish highlands i presume.
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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