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garciaparra22
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Topic: Christianizing the Indians.. Good or Bad? Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 23:35 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Originally posted by Gabachachida
If thats the case, then why is the supposed cape of Juan DIego in the church in DF showing the image that appeared of the Virgen from the flowers he put, show an image of a white looking woman....done in the same painting style of european artists of the time?? Do u suppose that the indigenous virgen was light skinned? Just seems a little fishy to me. |
Exactly, the virgin is not dark skinned at all; especially if you consider the fact that she probably is darker now than when she was originally, consdering that due to its age the cloth has become darker.
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WHAT IS "DARK SKIN" TO YOU? she appears Mestizo to me.
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garciaparra22
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Posted: 30-Oct-2007 at 23:38 |
Originally posted by garciaparra22
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Originally posted by Gabachachida
If thats the case, then why is the supposed cape of Juan DIego in the church in DF showing the image that appeared of the Virgen from the flowers he put, show an image of a white looking woman....done in the same painting style of european artists of the time?? Do u suppose that the indigenous virgen was light skinned? Just seems a little fishy to me. |
Exactly, the virgin is not dark skinned at all; especially if you consider the fact that she probably is darker now than when she was originally, consdering that due to its age the cloth has become darker.
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WHAT IS "DARK SKIN" TO YOU? she appears Mestizo to me. |
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The Canadian Guy
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 00:29 |
Originally posted by Akolouthos
Originally posted by SuN.
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
Whoever says it is good...i totally disagree with you!!!!!! My ancestors fought the white man since they stepped foot on our soil...and forever we will fight them. Religion is stupid and useless, I hate religion! You all should realize that the priest were brutal to the proud peoples of this land called the Americas. If we would not join their faith...soon after genocide took place. Sorry bud I don't like this poll...it make me feel enraged that some members agree that it was good. It was not good at all. If you were pagan you were converted or killed. |
You are right. I will support you.
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Ok, SuN, if you agree with all of that unsupported, unhistorical, vitriolic diatribe, you at least need to explain why. Sorry, but "You are right," isn't quite enough.
Of course I suppose you could just make a bunch of ludicrous, unsupported statements like your compatriot there; it is certainly common enough, especially on the internet, to almost escape notice.
-Akolouthos |
Akolouthos I was told stories by my elders that the priest were brutal and forced the children to be Christian, they were taken from their families.....I don't ever trust sources form the internet. These are known fact in my peoples lands. So don't argue back over this point because you don't know the tales and old newspaper print.
Edited by The Canadian Guy - 31-Oct-2007 at 00:30
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Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 00:45 |
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
Originally posted by Akolouthos
Originally posted by SuN.
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
Whoever says it is good...i totally disagree with you!!!!!! My ancestors fought the white man since they stepped foot on our soil...and forever we will fight them. Religion is stupid and useless, I hate religion! You all should realize that the priest were brutal to the proud peoples of this land called the Americas. If we would not join their faith...soon after genocide took place. Sorry bud I don't like this poll...it make me feel enraged that some members agree that it was good. It was not good at all. If you were pagan you were converted or killed. |
You are right. I will support you.
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Ok, SuN, if you agree with all of that unsupported, unhistorical, vitriolic diatribe, you at least need to explain why. Sorry, but "You are right," isn't quite enough.
Of course I suppose you could just make a bunch of ludicrous, unsupported statements like your compatriot there; it is certainly common enough, especially on the internet, to almost escape notice.
-Akolouthos | Akolouthos I was told stories by my elders that the priest were brutal and forced the children to be Christian, they were taken from their families.....I don't ever trust sources form the internet. These are known fact in my peoples lands. So don't argue back over this point because you don't know the tales and old newspaper print.
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Why don't you check your story with the elders of many of the Alaskan tribes; I think you'd be in for a surprise. Once again, you and your ideological ally fail to understand that there were a variety of ways in which Christianity spread. And for the record, I will "argue back" so long as you continue being wrong. Stop overgeneralizing, and I will stop disputing your unsourced (though in some cases not undocumented) "known facts."
-Akolouthos
Edited by Akolouthos - 31-Oct-2007 at 00:45
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 01:52 |
Fellows, both has part of reason. What happens is that we must distinguish the historical christianization made by Catholic priests, particularly the Jesuits in South America from some more tragic events that happened in the U.S., Canada and Australia by protestants centuries afterwars.
The early christianization was a different matter. When natives where treated as slaves, or indentured servants in the encomienda regime, the comming of priests to christianize them ensured the human rights were respected to them. Priest teach natives to read and write,and many of them become lawyer and fought for the rights of theirs people. Many figures, like Benito Juarez, for instance, the president of Mexico, were pick out of poverty and bough an education with the help and support of priest.
The history is different though with what happened when the government of the U.S., Canada and Australia started a massive plan to force indigenous people out of theirs culture, and send generations of children to be forced into the western culture in a regime that was nothing else but jails, and where abusses, even sexual, were widespread. That's something tragic that can't be forgiven.
So, let's not generalize and analyze each situation by its own merits. After all, there are four centuries between the first christianizations up to the last indian schools of the middle of 20th century.
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:19 |
Originally posted by pinguin
So, let's not generalize and analyze each situation by its own merits. After all, there are four centuries between the first christianizations up to the last indian schools of the middle of 20th century. |
Bingo. You know, I seem to recall saying something like that earlier.
-Akolouthos
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:21 |
Originally posted by Akolouthos
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Bingo. You know, I seem to recall saying something like that earlier.
-Akolouthos |
Yes, you say so. I was I little bit more polite to explain the point. That's all
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:27 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
... Exactly, the virgin is not dark skinned at all; especially if you consider the fact that she probably is darker now than when she was originally, consdering that due to its age the cloth has become darker.
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You would be surprise at how light some mestizos are. Actually, my country is mainly castizo (1/4 Amerindian). We have had many germanics and northern Italians comming as well.
Well, I teach a class in an university where a Dutch professor came as visitor. You would not believe me but that professor is darker than most Chileans . And he still looks pure European. Many Spaniards are darker than most Latinos, particularly Andalucians.
So, the theory of the skin color doesn't have support.
Look at the facial features. got it?
Edited by pinguin - 31-Oct-2007 at 02:27
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:37 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Akolouthos
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Bingo. You know, I seem to recall saying something like that earlier.
-Akolouthos |
Yes, you say so. I was I little bit more polite to explain the point. That's all |
So you were. Your method will probably prove more effective than mine, for which we shall all have cause to thank you.
-Akolouthos
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The Canadian Guy
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:53 |
Originally posted by pinguin
The history is different though with what happened when the government of the U.S., Canada and Australia started a massive plan to force indigenous people out of theirs culture, and send generations of children to be forced into the western culture in a regime that was nothing else but jails, and where abusses, even sexual, were widespread. That's something tragic that can't be forgiven.
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This is what i am talking about, and religious school treated my people like dogs until they become "civilized".
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Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.
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The Canadian Guy
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 02:58 |
http://journalism.berkeley.edu/projects/nm/julia/history.html Read the first paragraph Akolouthos, pingiun knows his stuff. Then start to research this. You will understand, I hope.
Edited by The Canadian Guy - 31-Oct-2007 at 03:00
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Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.
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garciaparra22
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 03:13 |
Canadian guy what tribe are you from? Are you full blood?
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The Canadian Guy
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 10:44 |
I am a full blooded Ojibwe, why?
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Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 13:48 |
*sigh*
Read my last severeal posts, and, for good measure, pinguin's second to last post; then you will understand--I hope--why your failure to conceive of this dialogue in reasonable terms continues to baffle me. By the way, you will note that your article is a piece of journalism, rather than a research paper. I don't believe this renders it useless for our purposes; I simply feel the need to help you draw distinctions, since you obviously have such a problem doing so on your own.
The article you cited deals with the contact between western Europeans, and specifically, given the context, the British. I am referring to the Russians, primarily, and the Spanish. Further, you will note a distinction between the governments of these colonial powers, the companies that were charged with exploiting the land and people, and the missionaries. You cannot treat this problem in monolithic terms; you must attempt to refine yourself as a historian before you can ever truly hope to understand it.
-Akolouthos
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 16:43 |
Originally posted by pinguin
You would be surprise at how light some mestizos are. |
I know, but still the average mestizo, and certainly the average Indian is darker than the Virgin of Guadalupe (it may be different in Chile than in Mexico though). Mestiza is possible (though not proven), but she certainly is no indian.
Well, I teach a class in an university where a Dutch professor came as
visitor. You would not believe me but that professor is darker than
most Chileans. |
After a few weeks in Mexico I was already darker than the average telenovela actress, though that had more to do with those actresses than with me. I wonder what kind of pills they take in order to stay that white; the only other way they can stay that way is never going outside.
Talking about such subjects, it is striking how much discrimination against people with darker skin colors still exists in Mexico. The average Mexican politician is significantly whiter than the average Mexican, and for most singers and actors (especially female ones) the difference is even larger. When I was in Mexico I have heard several stories of Indians or dark skinned mestizos who were refused entry to restaurants, discos, etc. solely because of their skin color. This summer there even was an incident in Cancn where Rigoberta Mench was not allowed to enter a hotel where she was to speak in an international conference (attended by George Bush amongst others) because she is an Indian and the security guards didn't recognize her.
Edited by Mixcoatl - 31-Oct-2007 at 16:45
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The Canadian Guy
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:24 |
This argument is never going to end...so I will not debate it any further!
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Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.
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garciaparra22
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 17:55 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Talking about such subjects, it is striking how much discrimination against people with darker skin colors still exists in Mexico. The average Mexican politician is significantly whiter than the average Mexican, and for most singers and actors (especially female ones) the difference is even larger. When I was in Mexico I have heard several stories of Indians or dark skinned mestizos who were refused entry to restaurants, discos, etc. solely because of their skin color.
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What part of Mexico did you visit? Their is a regional difference in regions were some areas are more Amerindian. The Politicians usually look in skin tone like the people they represent.
Governor of Zacatecas Amalia Garcia
People from Zacatecas a North Central state
Now the governor of Puebla Mario Marin Torres,Puebla a South Central state
Another Puebla ex governor
people from Puebla tos
I agree the average Mexican actor is lighter than the average Mexican, but Mexico has many foreign actors in Mexican TV.
As for the average singer being lighter than the average Mexican that is only true for Mexican pop,rock singers.
The average Mexican ranchera,Mariachi,Cumbia,Banda,Corrido,grupero singers looks like the average Mexican from the regions they are coming from.
Ranchero Singer Vicente Fernandez looks typical from Jalisco from his age bracket
banda el Recodo look typical from Sinaloa
tiranos del norte look typical from el norte of Mexico
Of of Mexico's greatest singrs,composers of Romantic and pop music Armando Manzanero of pure Mayan ancestry.Would not be refused entry into Mexico's most prestigious clubs.t's usually about money in Mexico if you can't pay you can't enter.
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 18:18 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
After a few weeks in Mexico I was already darker than the average telenovela actress, though that had more to do with those actresses than with me. I wonder what kind of pills they take in order to stay that white; the only other way they can stay that way is never going outside.
Talking about such subjects, it is striking how much discrimination against people with darker skin colors still exists in Mexico. The average Mexican politician is significantly whiter than the average Mexican, and for most singers and actors (especially female ones) the difference is even larger. When I was in Mexico I have heard several stories of Indians or dark skinned mestizos who were refused entry to restaurants, discos, etc. solely because of their skin color. This summer there even was an incident in Cancn where Rigoberta Mench was not allowed to enter a hotel where she was to speak in an international conference (attended by George Bush amongst others) because she is an Indian and the security guards didn't recognize her.
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No more than what happens anywhere. I lived in Canada in an environment where everybody was nordic and most people have light eyes (germanics, ukranians, etc.). Well, the common people in the street didn't look as attractive at all like people shown on TV. Women were fat, rough facial features, all kind of imperfections.
On TV, though, people was perfect.
That's the same everywhere.
By the way, a little bit of make up and some tinctures make wonders... I also see Mexican novelas once in a while and I don't find the racial barriers, South African style, that you describe.
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 18:20 |
Originally posted by The Canadian Guy
This argument is never going to end...so I will not debate it any further! |
Fellow, go to the point. Tell us precisely what happens in the schools for Indians at the beginning of the 20th century up to the 60s. I bet the other fellow don't have idea. I do, and I understand what you are saying.
The point is, not always christianization was that way. Fortunately, the times of Inquisition are gone, let's hope foundamentalism don't start again
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Piedmon_Sama
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Posted: 31-Oct-2007 at 19:15 |
I went with "Neither Good nor Bad." This is because instead of looking at it as a triumph or tragedy, I look at it as something that happened. When you strip away all sensationalism, the religion of Indian cultures like the Aztecs and Maya were probably not dissimilar from the basics of Abrahamic or Eastern faiths. Do unto others as you would have them do to you, honor authority, help your community, etc. etc.
On the other hand, human sacrifice---especially on the scale the Aztecs liked to brag about---couldn't have been allowed to go on. Maybe I'm just looking at this as an outsider to all religions, being an atheist, but I would be more concerned with providing Natives with economic stability and social equality before I was concerned by what name they call God.
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