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Topic: Dresden Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 17:19 |
It were not the civilians of Dresden who commited those atrocities.
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Genghis
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Posted: 23-Feb-2005 at 22:47 |
Bombing Dresden and bombing Hiroshima was perfectly acceptable. That said, the Germans were also justified in bombing London. It's a war, the only moral thing you can do in a war is finish it. Those mass bombings were intended to win the war (Douhet theory), and thus foreshorten the suffering of nations as much as possible.
Edited by Genghis
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 25-Feb-2005 at 06:47 |
Originally posted by Genghis
bombing Hiroshima was perfectly acceptable. the
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Using atomic bomb against humanity was really unnecassary,my friend.
The japanese were already about to surrender.every historian,every strategist would agree with that...
And anti-nazis in germany also wanted to overthrown hitler much long ago and asked the allies to help them.Their only request was for the peace treaty aftermath.they wanted the conditions to be not insulting the national pride...but the allies insisted on ''unconditional surrender' and caused the war to last longer and deaths of more millions of people.
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Kalevipoeg
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Posted: 25-Feb-2005 at 14:33 |
By some peoples standards here, we, the Estonians, have the right to go bomb Moscow!!
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There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
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Genghis
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Posted: 25-Feb-2005 at 16:21 |
Originally posted by TheDiplomat
Originally posted by Genghis
bombing Hiroshima was perfectly acceptable. the
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Using atomic bomb against humanity was really unnecassary,my friend.
The japanese were already about to surrender.every historian,every strategist would agree with that... |
That's such bull. I've read much about this. The Japanese were not about to surrender. Even after they did, there was the attempted coup to continue the war, Tojo and the others were not about to surrender. Period. The only people trying to surrender were a few Japanese diplomats in Europe who were acting on their own accord with no orders to do so from Tokyo. Even if they had been successful in drafting a plan to surrender, the government in Tokyo would have rejected it out of hand, they were determined to die with honor to cover the shame of defeat. Any other opinion is not grounded in fact.
And furthermore, don't say that every historian or strategist agrees with this. Every reputable historian I've ever heard of says the bombs were necessary. The only people I hear say they were unnecessary are hacks like Howard Zinn who are just out to bash the United States, or moronic pundits who have no historical background.
Edited by Genghis
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Tobodai
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Posted: 25-Feb-2005 at 23:52 |
Most people dont know that after the first atomic bomb the emperor advocated surrender and the military had a coup to stop it, they peopel in power still even after the first bomb did not want to surrender. It wasnt evne the second bomb as much as the threat of the Soviets that really pushed them to surrender.
I think against the axis powers anything was justifiable, they had no qualsm about doing horribel things and startign the frekaing war, for most of his rulership Hilter had popular support so odds are when you drop a bomb on germany your killing majority hilter supporters anyway, same gores with Japan.
And anyway all this fuss about atmoic bombs...gueess what the firebombing of Tokyo killed alot more people than the a bombs idd!
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Genghis
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Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 01:00 |
And furthermore, if you're in a total war, with two societies fighting instead of just their armies, don't the lives of the enemy, civilian and military, not concern you as long as their nation is defeated?
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dark_one
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Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 09:18 |
By some peoples standards here, we, the Estonians, have the right to go bomb Moscow!! |
I came back from Europe just now with slighly softer views, and so I
say that no one has the right to bomb anyone else unless that person
already attacked them. If you bomb us expect full retribution and
beyond that, just as we would if we bombed you.
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 11:10 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by TheDiplomat
Originally posted by Genghis
bombing Hiroshima was perfectly acceptable. the
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Using atomic bomb against humanity was really unnecassary,my friend.
The japanese were already about to surrender.every historian,every strategist would agree with that... |
That's such bull. I've read much about this. The Japanese were not about to surrender. Even after they did, there was the attempted coup to continue the war, Tojo and the others were not about to surrender. Period. The only people trying to surrender were a few Japanese diplomats in Europe who were acting on their own accord with no orders to do so from Tokyo. Even if they had been successful in drafting a plan to surrender, the government in Tokyo would have rejected it out of hand, they were determined to die with honor to cover the shame of defeat. Any other opinion is not grounded in fact.
And furthermore, don't say that every historian or strategist agrees with this. Every reputable historian I've ever heard of says the bombs were necessary. The only people I hear say they were unnecessary are hacks like Howard Zinn who are just out to bash the United States, or moronic pundits who have no historical background.
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Considering a survey that shows %60 of Americans believe that the U.S has brought freedom to Iraq and its main mission was always liberty...i understand you.
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Temujin
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Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 13:46 |
no, it's a huge misconception, but Hitler had NO popular support.
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dark_one
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Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 20:46 |
What? Then how did he get officialy elected?
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Genghis
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Posted: 26-Feb-2005 at 22:32 |
Originally posted by dark_one
What? Then how did he get officialy elected? |
He didn't, it was due to a parliamentary deal with the German conservatives that got him into power. But even at the time he had 30% of the German vote, and I'm sure the members of the Deutsche Nationalistische Volkspartei didn't mind him either. So you are entirely right in saying he had strong public support. And it grew even larger after he set up his propaganda machine.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 03:36 |
yeah and if even half of people didnt like him then therre would have been more civil disorder and a better resistence.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Rava
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Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 05:20 |
Let us don't forget that in winter 1945 the motivation of Germans had changed. They fought desperately in defending their own land. All of them were involved in working for the army. Was teacher who sent teens with bazooki against Russian tanks a civilian? Once I met an old man of Mazurian origin (partialy germanized Poles living in the East Prussia) and he said that during Hitler's regime life was wonderful: there was an order, no crime, he could sell everything he produced, and the wholesale prices were stable... Therefore I think that most of German nation supported and appreciated III Reich. They only forgot one thing:
Qui gladio ferit, gladio perit.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 16:26 |
wel now they have been suitabley indoctrinated into happiness as a sattelite state of the US..thats your fate if you mess around!
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Temujin
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Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 18:27 |
ha, what do you considder major ressistance? the guys you talked abotu where Nazis themselves or made good living udner them, don't forget that Germans rightly felt mistreated by the Allies after WW1 and were ing reat depression, so it shoudln't eb surprisign that Hitler was initially very popular, btu do you think a guy that sends thousands of brothers, fathers and sons into futile wars is liekd in Germany? or picks a random part of population to be deported to deathcamps just because they had a Jew in their lineage? where was the ressistance in Russia against Stalin? we had our Stauffenberg and Sophie Scholl, btu i never headr of any Russian or Japanese miltary or civilian resistance...
and aynway, we're a sattelite of France if anything...
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dark_one
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Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 18:32 |
No civil resistance to Stalin. People were indoctrinated to love
him (to the point where upon his death no one knew how it is possible
to live without him). As for the party heads Trotsky and his gang of
bandits who wanted to ruin Russia did protest.
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Rava
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Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 03:44 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
wel now they have been suitabley indoctrinated into happiness as a sattelite state of the US..thats your fate if you mess around! |
I tell you, sometimes I'm sorry that they are no longer proud Teutones maybe it's been better for the Europe by now, but who knows the future, "times they are a changing".
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 07:28 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
Most people dont know that after the first atomic bomb the emperor advocated surrender and the military had a coup to stop it, they peopel in power still even after the first bomb did not want to surrender. It wasnt evne the second bomb as much as the threat of the Soviets that really pushed them to surrender.
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if the war continued for another year,Japan would starve,Tobadai.
In 1945 the Japanese were desperate,even more than The Germans are
Edited by TheDiplomat
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 07:34 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Every reputable historian I've ever heard of says the bombs were necessary. The only people I hear say they were unnecessary are hacks like Howard Zinn who are just out to bash the United States, or moronic pundits who have no historical background. |
Hehehe..dont be so biassed...
Have you ver heard of SIR LIDDEL HART?he was one of the best strategists of 20.century.
Even one ,who reads the Kissinger Diplomacy book, gets the impression that the monopoly of atomic bomb was so crucial for the post-war status of the U.S...Take a look into Truman-Stalin private chat before the atomic bomb wasnt used.
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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