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Do christian turks exists |
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Mortaza 
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Do christian turks existsPosted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:55 |
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Mortaza that's what I said. If you say that there's no jihadism in Turkey, then thanks to our Religious Affairs Ministry, which has always been saying that tolerance and human rights are the basis of Islam.
Sufism does not come with Diyanet. Even people who dont follow diyanet(and be sure, diyanet is not so much respected by religious people.) are not jihadists.
Therefore there's a wonderful -Muslim and at the same time democratic and humanist- community in Turkey.
you are talking about which people? AKP?
At the Ottoman ages, We did Jihad against Europe for almost 600 years saying "Kuffara kiyamet. (doomsday for Infidels!") Thanks to our Seyh-ul Islams, who were saying that "infidel west" must be destroyed.
Pls you should know it better. Every enemy of ottomans were infidels, not only west but east too.(Shia.) Ottomans claimed jihad even against fellow muslims.
By the way, I should also add, Infact that ottomans were much more tolerant to christians than secular humanist turks.
Today, we realised that any type of "holy war" is terrible and must go to hell.!
all of our wars were holy, most probably all of our wars would be holy too.
can you tell me an unholy war we fought? this is called as brainwashing(Not only turkey do, but every countries do it.) No matter what we do, we are making a holy war.
Republic period of Anatolia is the most peaceful period compared to the whole history.
do you want to tell me ottomans fought so much war because of their religious society? Pls. do you believe this bullsh*t?
And then take a look at the misery of those "jihadist" middle eastern people and compare it with our situation.
Look at iran, do you see a lot jihadist? but they supported evil armenians against shia azeris. So, dont close your eyes and minds to others. It is still money and politics people follow. It is not important how much religious they are.
I should also add, which part of Turkey are you talking about? some part are better and some part are worse than arabic countries.
Religious Affairs Ministry did a great job since secular Turkey republic.
That is true. If we have same type of education ministry, we would be realy a peaciful country.
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 14:57 |
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And agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities. Science says this.
By the way, do you have a link about this? or is this science only your idea. (are we talking about richness or tolerance?)
education is a good thing, If aim of education is good.
Edited by Mortaza - 29-Mar-2007 at 15:00 |
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erkut
General 
Persona non Grata Joined: 18-Feb-2006 Location: T.R.N.C. Online Status: Offline Posts: 965 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:15 |
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Finally you agree with me
And İ agree with you too
But atleast educated ones are better
That kind of things was happening at the age of Batuta bro. Time changed peopels.
Economy Politic says agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities Edited by erkut - 29-Mar-2007 at 15:20 |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:22 |
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Finally you agree with me :) why not? I dislike diyanet much. They should built an organization for every people(sunni, alevi, christian), or they should not built any organization. why do you think, I prefer to take my religious service with non-muslims money?
But atleast educated ones are better
why? Infact, I dont see much difference between an uneducated fanatic religious people, or an educated fanatic cumhuriyet reader. Both are close minded.
Economy Politic says agricultural societies are inferior to industrilized socities That is why I asked question. are we talking about richness or not. It is a known fact cities are more rich than villages.
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erkut
General
Persona non Grata Joined: 18-Feb-2006 Location: T.R.N.C. Online Status: Offline Posts: 965 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:34 |
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İ agree with you again.
Well uneducated fanatic religious peoples throw bombs to cumhuriyet newspaper, they kill danıştay members, they kill nonmuslims(Santoro for ex.) or Alevis(Dont you remember howmany Alevi they killed in Sivas). But did you ever heard a cumuhuriyet reader bombed zaman newspaper or a mosq, did you ever heard they killed an sheyh or a fanatik muslim?
Not just richness actualy because money also changes social structure.
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Bulldog
Caliph 
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:39 |
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You seem to have this idea that us in the UK or other Western European countries still have a late Victorian mind-set. This prejeduce mentallity is now redundant and frowned upon. Here alot of people would like to live in a small town or village, they like to protect their heritage, local architecture and customs especially in Itally.
People in big cities are not "superior" to those in villages and towns. Infact poverty levels and the lives of the less privaleged are actually worse in big cities. In town, small cities and villages the families are large and their unit is strong, they work together and help each other, they don't go hungry and have land.
Erkut
That kind of things was happening at the age of Batuta bro. Time changed peopels
Really? well last time I went to Turkey it was actually similar to Ibn Battuta's descriptions.
This country ... is one of the finest in the world; in it God has brought together the good things dispersed throughout other lands. Its people are the most comely (handsome) of men, the cleanest in their dress, the most delicious in their food, and the kindliest folk in creation. Wherever we stopped in this land, whether at a hospice or a private house, our neighbors both men and women (these do not veil themselves) came to ask after our needs. When we left them they bade us farewell as though they were our relatives and our own folk, and you would see the women weeping out of grief at our departure." [Gibb, p. 415 - 416]
We went to some villages and small towns, the locals always asked us to drink their tea, they bought us so much food even gave us shelter. We didn't know them for long but it felt as if we knew them for ages. Anything they had they let us use, they treated us as an equal, when we left the woman poured water over our car and were upset.
Battuta noted that Turkish men and woman were equal in Turkish society, even alot of woman don't veil and men don't bother them if they do or don't.
"...A remarkable thing which I saw in this country was the respect shown to women by the Turks, for they hold a more dignified position than the men. ... I saw also the wives of the merchants and common [men]. [Their faces are] visible for the Turkish women do not veil themselves. Sometimes a woman will be accompanied by her husband and anyone seeing him would take him for one of her servants."
Diyanet is a continuation of Seyh-ul-Islam under a different name, their essential as a regulatory body and not to allow Wahabbi money to infiltrate every mosque in the country. Edited by Bulldog - 29-Mar-2007 at 15:57 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:40 |
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Well uneducated fanatic religious peoples throw bombs to cumhuriyet newspaper,
Bombs were taken by army. It looks life, after cumhuriyet hear it, they stoped their propoganda.
they kill danıştay members
who? someone drink alchol? is this religious one? please.
But did you ever heard a cumuhuriyet reader bombed zaman newspaper or a mosq, did you ever heard they killed an sheyh or a fanatik muslim?
My friend, cumhuriyet is supporting a coup, they are trying to incite army. So It is absolutely not so innocent newspaper. Do you aware of thread?
Not just richness actualy because money also changes social structure.
Well so? Of course It changes social structure. |
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Maharbbal
Sultan 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:55 |
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Guyz looks like you are heavily deviating from the original question maybe you should open a new thread in current events
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I am a free donkey!
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erkut
General
Persona non Grata Joined: 18-Feb-2006 Location: T.R.N.C. Online Status: Offline Posts: 965 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:08 |
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Ok i will follow our actual topic
Yeap any comments about Karamanis?
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:18 |
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I am curious, If they are ethnically turks or only asimilated turks.
But well, I think I will never learn it.
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain 
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:24 |
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Mortaza;
The Ottoman empire was a feudal agricultural empire which was based on war economy, and whose motive was based religion, which made her citizens awfully religious, whose literacy rate was 1%. What you wrote about the Ottomans also proves my statement.
Turkey is worse than the West, guys, not the middle east nor the Ottomans.
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:36 |
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The Ottoman empire was a feudal agricultural empire which was based on war economy halfly true, pls what type of empire can survive 600 year with war economy. I think you are to much effected with our tale-history.
whose motive was based religion, which made her citizens awfully religious,
sorry? do you have proofs or just again we are talking about your ideas? Ottomans gave christians more freedom than Turkey. Ottomans made their politics with mind not with religion. They allied christians against muslims or otherwise.
whose literacy rate was 1%
so tell me, when did literacy rate began to rise?
Turkey is worse than the West, guys, not the middle east nor the Ottomans.
Hmm? about what issue? We have same gdp with iran or If I am not wrong saudi arabia.
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:53 |
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Then again Mortaza,
The Ottoman Empire was:
a feudal (not liberal)
agricultural (Not industrilized)
empire (Not republic),
which was based on war economy(not modern liberal economy)
what type of empire can survive 600 year with war economy?
Simply, an empire that is based on war economy. The Ottomans fought for 600 years, non stop. For more information, see the history of the Ottoman Empire.
Modern Turkey is the answer of your question about literacy.
Turkey is better than all of the middle eastern countries, in terms of industrilization, urbanization, westernization, modernization and so on.
but I won't discuss this in here Edited by The Hidden Face - 29-Mar-2007 at 16:58 |
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erkut
General
Persona non Grata Joined: 18-Feb-2006 Location: T.R.N.C. Online Status: Offline Posts: 965 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 16:58 |
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Well but you just said agricultural. So its not just war economy there was also a feudal agricultural system and trade ofcourse.
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Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 17:06 |
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The Ottoman Empire was:
a feudal (not liberal)
agricultural (Not industrilized)
empire (Not republic),
which was based on war economy(not modern liberal economy)
Hidden pls, we are talking about ottoman empire and history. Not modern times. At that times, economy mostly means, agriculture, trade and small shops. Ottomans have all of this.
will you accuse ottomans, because they have computer too?
Simply, an empire that is based on war economy. The Ottomans fought for 600 years, non stop. For more information, see the history of the Ottoman Empire.
so you think, ottoman empire have more bloody history than other empires?
Modern Turkey is the answer of your question about literacy.
modern turkey? or modern times? what do you think literacy rate at london at 1800 and istanbul?
You are looking history with the windows of modern times.
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
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Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 17:06 |
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Of course, Erkut. But that agricultural system drove empires to fight, anyway. |
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 17:10 |
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Then again, Mortaza;
The Ottoman Empire was:
a feudal (not liberal)
agricultural (Not industrilized)
empire (Not republic),
which was based on war economy(not modern liberal economy)
This is why the Ottomans were called "the sick man of Europe."
In 1800, the literacy rate in Britain (The motherland of Industrilization) was, without a doubt, higher by far than the literacy rate in the Ottoman Empire. |
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 17:49 |
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Hidden_Face
The Ottoman empire was a feudal agricultural empire
There are many books dedicated to the economic system of the Ottoman State, it was not simply a feudal agriculture, it had a large feudal agricultural population but your neglecting the Ottoman trade routes, its proffessional class, its exports and produce.
For example, Bursa was not just one of the richest states in the region but in the entire world due being a centre of textiles.
The Ahilik system based on Central Asian Ak Saqalik, the Charshi/Bazaars and so on are evidence against your claims.
HiddenFace
agricultural (Not industrilized)
Let's not forget how colonialist empires like the Brittish or French aquired such immense wealth. They were also largely agricultural and relied on feudal land lords.
The economic advantage they had was "America" and "Slavery". If the Ottomans had state authorised the slave trade like Western European powers did she also would have benefitted from it in the same way.
As inhumane as it sounds, Ottomans missed out economically speaking not being a part of the slave trade.
The Western European powers had tooken possession of which fertile lands and in addition a huge workforce of slaves which were regarded "property" and hence not paid for work.
Imagine having hundreds of acres of land and have it worked for free, unimaginable capitol was made from this.
With all this finance they could fund an industrial revolution much more easily than the Ottoman's could.
However, the Ottomans did start to industrialize, they had factories, were building a train network and modernizing from the early Tanzimat period.
Hidden_Face
In 1800, the literacy rate in Britain (The motherland of Industrilization) was, without a doubt, higher by far than the literacy rate in the Ottoman Empire.
The Brittish Empire or just Britain? how can you compare a province of an Empire to another Empire.
In main Ottoman cities literacy rate was not below that of Britain, in the 1800's there were primary schools, colleges, universities for most city
Hidden_Face
Turkey is better than all of the middle eastern countries, in terms of industrilization, urbanization, westernization, modernization and so on.
What has Westernization got to do with anything, being Westernized doesn't make anybody "better" or "worse", infact many Arab regimes are more Western in organisation than Turkey is, many African states are highly Westernized but not very prosperous or advanced in comparison to non-Western modern nations like China, Indonesia and so on.
p.s United Arab Emirates is one of the wealthiest, most modern and advanced regions in the world Edited by Bulldog - 29-Mar-2007 at 17:53 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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The Hidden Face
Chieftain
Ustad-i Azam Joined: 16-Jul-2005 Location: Mexico Online Status: Offline Posts: 1379 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 18:01 |
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Bulldog, why are you talking about something you don't know clearly?
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 18:05 |
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I do believe that about 1% of the Turkish population claims to be some type of Christian sect. Most of the Orthodox Christians were last forced out in 1955 and 1960-1. The few Protestant converts in Istanbul keep low profile and have limited religious freedom.
Remember, I was in Turkey and I met Christian converts and yes they have to keep low profile about their faith. They do not have the same freedom of religion that is found in the west, especially the US. |
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