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xi_tujue
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Topic: Polish Winged Hussars? Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 08:07 |
Originally posted by ataman
Originally posted by xi_tujue
First of all I haven't read all the post but I think it's verry "strange" that the best european cavalary begins to develop after the Mongolian/Tatar invasion of Europe |
Well, every period has its own 'the best troops'
Originally posted by xi_tujue
as for the winged part SUPRISE!!
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It's from Osprey about Polish army, isn't it?
As far as wings are concerned, they are (I write only about this kind of wing with wooden frame) Polish invention, which were copied by some Tartars.
Originally posted by xi_tujue
(how many of you knew this oh yeah the word uhlan comes froml the Turkic word oglan wich means (slave)boy
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Well, it is a common knowledge in Poland that the word 'uhlan' ('ułan' in Polish) is a Tartar origin. There was a Tartar family in P-L Commonwealth called 'Ułan'. Because so many members of this family served in the Polish army, its name become a synonym of the formation where they served. |
Developing and copying are 2 different things. as for the wing thing I have mu doubts
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 08:07 |
Part of the painting 'Election of August II' by unknown painter in 1697
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 08:10 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
Developing and copying are 2 different things. as for the wing thing I have mu doubts
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xi_tujue, look at wings of Polish hussars in the Stokholm's Roll. They are the same like your Tartar from 1656. So, who was the first?
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 08:23 |
Here are Tartars in the battle of Warsaw 1656. It was painted by Johann Philip Lempke in 1684. Xi_tujue, it seems that it was a model for Osprey winged Tartar.
Edited by ataman - 07-Feb-2007 at 08:24
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:03 |
Look all I'm saying is that its a hard to believe that a group of people who are known for their cavalary. are going to copy from people who started to use cavalary(well make it count) after they came to that region wich was about 1000 years ago(huns & bulgars).
I find it verry "intresting" that they best cavalary in European history are the Hussars, uhlans & Cosacks. There fighting style are so similar to those of .........
you fill in the empty spot
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Roberts
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:10 |
Actually those wings have balkan origins. This feature was spread out in eastern Europe by Serbian mercenaries ( Gusars, where the name hussar comes from), in Ottoman empire these soldiers were known as Delis.
Edited by axeman - 07-Feb-2007 at 09:10
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:13 |
Originally posted by axeman
Actually those wings have balkan origins. This feature was spread out in eastern Europe by Serbian mercenaries ( Gusars, where the name hussar comes from), in Ottoman empire these soldiers were known as Delis.
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delis do you mean deliler Deli means crazy in Turkish
Edited by xi_tujue - 07-Feb-2007 at 09:15
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:14 |
Hussars in the battle of Kalisz 1706 (painted by unknown painter in early 18th c.)
Edited by ataman - 07-Feb-2007 at 09:15
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:19 |
Originally posted by ataman
Hussars in the battle of Kalisz 1706 (painted by unknown painter in early 18th c.) |
wow even there banners look like mongolian horsehair banners
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:31 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
Look all I'm saying is that its a hard to believe that a group of people who are known for their cavalary. are going to copy from people who started to use cavalary(well make it count) after they came to that region wich was about 1000 years ago(huns & bulgars).
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xi_tujue, you can believe or don't believe anything you want, but as far as wings are concerned (the wings with wooden frame), AFAIK there is no evidence that Tartars used them before the Poles.
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I find it verry "intresting" that they best cavalary in European history are the Hussars, uhlans & Cosacks. There fighting style are so similar to those of .........
you fill in the empty spot
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Tell me which Mongol or Tartar troops charged enemies with over 6m long hollowed lances? Which Mongol or Tartar troops used iron armors and fire weapon?
We can alawys find some similarities between every kind of cavalry (the most obvious is using a horse ), but claiming that Polish winged hussars fought like Tartars is completly wrong.
Tartars and Polish hussars fought a lot of times times with each other. And they fought in different manners. Why? Because they were completly different kinds of cavalry. The Poles, armored, armed of long lances, charged straight on enemies. The Tartars, mostly unarmored, armed of bows and sabres, tried to outflank hussars and attack their backs. Or they stayed at some distance and shot to hussars.
Hussars charged in close order ('knee to knee'). Tartars usuallu fought in loose formation.
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:33 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
[QUOTE=ataman]wow even there banners look like mongolian horsehair banners
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I suppose you mean 'znak hetmański' (hetman's sign). Yes, it is copied from steppe horsemen.
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:40 |
Originally posted by axeman
Actually those wings have balkan origins. This feature was spread out in eastern Europe by Serbian mercenaries ( Gusars, where the name hussar comes from), in Ottoman empire these soldiers were known as Delis. |
Axeman, do you know any evidence that wings with wooden frame (I don't write about natural wings) were used outside Poland before 16th c.?
It's true that Delis used wings - but they were natural wings.
It's true that Hungarian cavalry used 'winged shields' - but winged shields aren't wings with wooden frame.
It's true that feathers were popular in central, southern and eastern Europe. But there is a difference between feathers, natural wings, winged shields and wings with wooden frames.
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:41 |
Originally posted by ataman
Originally posted by xi_tujue
Look all I'm saying is that its a hard to believe that a group of people who are known for their cavalary. are going to copy from people who started to use cavalary(well make it count) after they came to that region wich was about 1000 years ago(huns & bulgars).
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xi_tujue, you can believe or don't believe anything you want, but as far as wings are concerned (the wings with wooden frame), AFAIK there is no evidence that Tartars used them before the Poles.
Originally posted by xi_tujue
I find it verry "intresting" that they best cavalary in European history are the Hussars, uhlans & Cosacks. There fighting style are so similar to those of .........
you fill in the empty spot
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Tell me which Mongol or Tartar troops charged enemies with over 6m long hollowed lances? Which Mongol or Tartar troops used iron armors and fire weapon?
We can alawys find some similarities between every kind of cavalry (the most obvious is using a horse ), but claiming that Polish winged hussars fought like Tartars is completly wrong.
Tartars and Polish hussars fought a lot of times times with each other. And they fought in different manners. Why? Because they were completly different kinds of cavalry. The Poles, armored, armed of long lances, charged straight on enemies. The Tartars, mostly unarmored, armed of bows and sabres, tried to outflank hussars and attack their backs. Or they stayed at some distance and shot to hussars.
Hussars charged in close order ('knee to knee'). Tartars usuallu fought in loose formation. |
thats because the Tatars were iregular troops who were used to do raids on the enemy or scare the enemy. If i'm not wrong they also had heavly cavalary with lances
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:46 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
thats because the Tatars were iregular troops who were used to do raids on the enemy or scare the enemy. |
Exactly. Tartars and Polish 'winged' hussars were completly different kind of cavalry.
Originally posted by xi_tujue
If i'm not wrong they also had heavly cavalary with lances
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Some Tartars used lances. But they were short (some 2,5-3m) and completly different than hussar lances. Hussar lances were long (even 6,2m) and hollowed inside. Hussar lances could be used only once, while Tartar ones could be used many times (because they didn't break during impact).
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 09:55 |
Hussars from the painting 'Kampament wojsk saskich' by J.Ch.Mock (1732)
Edited by ataman - 07-Feb-2007 at 09:56
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 13:24 |
Originally posted by axeman
Actually those wings have balkan origins. This feature was spread out in eastern Europe by Serbian mercenaries ( Gusars, where the name hussar comes from), in Ottoman empire these soldiers were known as Delis.
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so I did some research well accualy I asked some friends who are studying history I will quote him here(not from the forum)
the wings were first worn by Ottoman Delis of course, the term Hussar
(Gussar) comes from Serbian, maybe aca can confirm it. the winged
Crimean Tatar Oglans copied the Poles from what i know. Venetians also
had Winged Hussars from locals of their balkan provinces. not sure
Serbian and Hungarian Hussars ever wore wings.
so you were right about the Delis
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ataman
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Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 14:43 |
Originally posted by xi_tujue
so I did some research well accualy I asked some friends who are studying history
I will quote him here(not from the forum)
the wings were first worn by Ottoman Delis of course,
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So once again - delis used wings, but:
1. they weren't first who did it
2. opposite to Polish hussars, who used wings with wooden frame, delis used naturalistic wings (like at the picture below)
Deli according to Nicholas de Nicoloy (1567)
Originally posted by xi_tujue
the winged Crimean Tatar Oglans copied the Poles from what i know. |
I have found other example of winged Tartar. It is a drawing of mirza Ali Girej (Tartar khan's son) in the time of the battle of Vienna 1683. The wing has wooden frame (like those used by Polish hussars about 100 years earlier)
Originally posted by xi_tujue
Venetians also had Winged Hussars from locals of their balkan provinces.
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xi_tujue, Venetians didn't have 'winged hussars'. They had 'stradioti'.
Edited by ataman - 08-Feb-2007 at 02:38
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Temujin
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 14:53 |
Originally posted by ataman
So once again - delis used wings, but:
1. they weren't first who did it |
so who was it then? ;) BTW, he was quoting me, not someone who actually studied history
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Roberts
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 16:26 |
Originally posted by ataman
Axeman, do you know any evidence that wings with wooden frame (I don't write about natural wings) were used outside Poland before 16th c.? |
Shields of this asymmetric shape were the standard equipment of early hussars. They were known by the Turks as "Rumelian" (Balkan) shields, by the Italians as Bosnian shields and by the Poles as Hungarian shields. The winged claw device appears in Central European heraldry and evidently inspired some horsemen to tack actual wings on the shields. Soldier with similar shield most likely Bosnian.
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 17:03 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Originally posted by ataman
So once again - delis used wings, but:
1. they weren't first who did it |
so who was it then? ;)
BTW, he was quoting me, not someone who actually studied history
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yes i was hehe(I thougth you did you lied to me
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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