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Liudovik_Nemski
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Topic: Question to Iranians! Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 09:07 |
Greetings,does anyone have an idea what does Asparuh mean in your current language or old iranian?Please if you know tell me you will be of great help! There's a hypothesis that the name of the first danube bulgarian khan Asparuh(also Isperih) is from iranian origin,meaning white horseman If we find any connection it will be a serious proof that the bulgars are iranian(aryan) people!
Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 28-Jan-2007 at 12:14
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shinai
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 11:57 |
Aspa (horse) +rukh( rukhshan= shinning), or in moder persian Asberoshan
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Liudovik_Nemski
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 12:58 |
Many thanks!
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 14:57 |
If it means "White Horseman" then the first word is probably Aspit/Spit (white), as we know the last name of Zarathustra was Spitama (White Race/White Clan), however it can also be Asp (Horse) or Aspara/Asabara (Horseman/Horse Rider).
Inscription of DNd:
Aspacana (Aspatbines), bowbearer, holds the battle-ax of Darius the King.
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Suren
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 18:22 |
@ Cyrus Shahmiri
what does spitamenes mean ?
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 08:06 |
Spitamenes (Pahlavi Spitman) is the Greek name of Spitama.
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barbar
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 09:05 |
Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski
There's a hypothesis that the name of the first danube bulgarian khan Asparuh(also Isperih) is from iranian origin,meaning white horseman If we find any connection it will be a serious proof that the bulgars are iranian(aryan) people!
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OMG, what a ridiculuos hypothesis!!!!!! A name of a leader "Seriosly prooves" his and his people's origin???????????? What about his ansectors's names and what about their titles? what about the plenty of historical documents about Bulghars? What about their language and customs according to these documents? What about other possibilities: Slavic origin of this name? What about religious conversion that usually also led to the changing of the names? What about ........ Please, tracing the origin of a historical group is not that easy.
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Either make a history or become a history.
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Zagros
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 09:22 |
Considering those Bulgars had a significant OSSETIC/ALAN contingent, it isn't, what is with the mockery? Totally uncalled for.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 14:18 |
Yes,Hellenic versions of Ancient Persian names end mostly in -menes:Tisafernes,Spitamenes etc.
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barbar
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 03:18 |
Originally posted by Zagros
Considering those Bulgars had a significant OSSETIC/ALAN contingent, it isn't, what is with the mockery? Totally uncalled for. |
I gave my serious reply for a "serious" post. If it sounds like mocking, then it's not my intention.
As we have plenty of threads about Bulghars, I'm not going to talk about this topic here.
Back to the meaning of the name "Asparuh", I just want you to remember one of the western Kok-Turk Qaghan, whose name was "Ishbara Ilterish", in Chinese: "Sha bo lou ji li shi". Ashpara and Ishbara can be dialectic difference, I can give plenty of such examples in modern Turkic. The meaning in Turkish is "Surpassing".
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 05:09 |
I had read something about the connection between Iranians and Bulgarians, I can't find the site, the title of the article was "Bolg-Aryans", this is from it:
Not only the language, but also some other sides of the Bulgarian national identity must be explained with our Kimmerian-Iranian orygin. In the way of compairison we have clarified not only the orygin, but also the holy meaning of the Bulgarioan folk festivals and customes, commected with them. The majority of the Bulgarian festivals have Kimmerian orygin, because there are many costumes in them, characteristic to the Celtic festivals as well. Such are the Koleda-Jull, the Atanasovden-Imbolk, the Gergjovden-Beltene, the Ilinden-Lugnazad Another festivals have definely Iranian orygin. So the Mujka Zadusjnitza (The All Souls Day) is related to the Celtic festival Samhaen, but it is most closed to the Iranian festival Hamaspatmedia, whose name means just A Treat in honour of the souls of the rightelous men. On the eve of the movable Christian festival Sirni Zagovezni, a splendid fire plays are being carried out, as expression of the most important Iranian festival Nourouz, the Aryan New Year, honoured in the Day of the Vernal equinox (21-st March). In the everning before this day the people birns big fires, which have to be jumped over for health. Accourding to the costume, the men are making torches of splited wood sticks, filled with straw. The sticks have to be burned and whirled in circles. In this way the Holy Aryan Swastica is expressed the symbol of Sun and Fire, and Cosmical order in generall.(24) With the sign of Swastica the men are congratulateing the victory of the Sun over the darkness and the evil powers in the comeing Nouruz, which means The New Day. The fire plays, described above, are characteristic to Bulgaria, Kurdistan and Iran. We must not forget, that many Bulgarian costumes and festivals are inherited by the Thracians as well, who also were very ancient and cultural folk. Doubtless the unite of BOLGS and ARYANS had taken place in Bactria. Westwards from Bactria is the holy Aryan land Aryana Vayedjio situated. It is praised by Zarathustra in the holy himnes of Gatha, the oldest part of the Zent-Avesta. The todays researchers are stateing, that it was the ancient state of the ARYANS, because ARYAN is the ancient etnic name of Persians and Bharata (the folk of Indo-Aryans), written in the Vedas and Zent-Avesta. Ammoung the folkes, who had taken part in the marsh of the Persian emperor Cyrus against Helada, Herodot mentiones the ARYANS. Their armour was like the armour of Bactrians.(25) But Aryan is not only a common etnical name of the Indo-Iranian folks. It is allmost a word for noble, elevated man, for the Aryans as Race of the Spirit. |
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Zagros
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 06:43 |
Cyrus, I read somewhere, (I think on this site) about a strong genetic commonality betwen modern Ossetians and Bulgars, and the Bulgars definitely had Alan contingents with them. I don't give credence to genetic testing if it is used as a denominator of race but this hinting more at a recent family similarity (like sons from the same father 1600 years ago). I will try to find the thread.
Originally posted by Spartakus
Yes,Hellenic versions of Ancient Persian names end mostly in -menes:Tisafernes,Spitamenes etc.
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Most Persian names ended with sh and Greek did and does not have the sh sound, so they converted it to s - e.g. Daryush -> Daryus -> Koorosh -> Kooros.
No worries barbar, it just sounded a little hyped.
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Liudovik_Nemski
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:42 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
I had read something about the connection between Iranians and Bulgarians, I can't find the site, the title of the article was "Bolg-Aryans", this is from it:
Not only the language, but also some other sides of the Bulgarian national identity must be explained with our Kimmerian-Iranian orygin. In the way of compairison we have clarified not only the orygin, but also the holy meaning of the Bulgarioan folk festivals and customes, commected with them. The majority of the Bulgarian festivals have Kimmerian orygin, because there are many costumes in them, characteristic to the Celtic festivals as well. Such are the Koleda-Jull, the Atanasovden-Imbolk, the Gergjovden-Beltene, the Ilinden-Lugnazad Another festivals have definely Iranian orygin. So the Mujka Zadusjnitza (The All Souls Day) is related to the Celtic festival Samhaen, but it is most closed to the Iranian festival Hamaspatmedia, whose name means just A Treat in honour of the souls of the rightelous men. On the eve of the movable Christian festival Sirni Zagovezni, a splendid fire plays are being carried out, as expression of the most important Iranian festival Nourouz, the Aryan New Year, honoured in the Day of the Vernal equinox (21-st March). In the everning before this day the people birns big fires, which have to be jumped over for health. Accourding to the costume, the men are making torches of splited wood sticks, filled with straw. The sticks have to be burned and whirled in circles. In this way the Holy Aryan Swastica is expressed the symbol of Sun and Fire, and Cosmical order in generall.(24) With the sign of Swastica the men are congratulateing the victory of the Sun over the darkness and the evil powers in the comeing Nouruz, which means The New Day. The fire plays, described above, are characteristic to Bulgaria, Kurdistan and Iran. We must not forget, that many Bulgarian costumes and festivals are inherited by the Thracians as well, who also were very ancient and cultural folk. Doubtless the unite of BOLGS and ARYANS had taken place in Bactria. Westwards from Bactria is the holy Aryan land Aryana Vayedjio situated. It is praised by Zarathustra in the holy himnes of Gatha, the oldest part of the Zent-Avesta. The todays researchers are stateing, that it was the ancient state of the ARYANS, because ARYAN is the ancient etnic name of Persians and Bharata (the folk of Indo-Aryans), written in the Vedas and Zent-Avesta. Ammoung the folkes, who had taken part in the marsh of the Persian emperor Cyrus against Helada, Herodot mentiones the ARYANS. Their armour was like the armour of Bactrians.(25) But Aryan is not only a common etnical name of the Indo-Iranian folks. It is allmost a word for noble, elevated man, for the Aryans as Race of the Spirit. |
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There are at least 5 hypothesis about the origin of the bulgars and each one has proofs but also many flaws.This is one of the greatest problems in bulgar history-we don't know for sure what our origin is The communists tried to make us look like pure slavs-"you see the bulgars against which the eastern roman emperor sent 60 000+ were around 10 000 and quickly melted in the "slavic sea" But it's a fact that there were bulgars on the balkans at least 2-3 centuries before 681A.D. and their numbers were great.Now when the regime is fallen historians work on other theories and it becomes very complicated.
Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 01-Feb-2007 at 12:49
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The Chargemaster
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 12:51 |
Originally posted by barbar
Back to the meaning of the name "Asparuh", I just want you to remember
one of the western Kok-Turk Qaghan, whose name was "Ishbara Ilterish",
in Chinese: "Sha bo lou ji li shi". Ashpara and Ishbara can be
dialectic difference, I can give plenty of such examples in modern
Turkic. The meaning in Turkish is "Surpassing". |
Thank you for sharing this! My opinion is just the same.
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Suren
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 14:30 |
My opinion is that bulgars should be a mixture of Iranic and Turkic elements. by linguistic and places that they move through history. North of black sea has been settled by scythian and sarmatian tribes and most likey a mixture with later bulgars that came to this region.
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The Chargemaster
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 16:01 |
Originally posted by sirius99
My opinion is that bulgars should be a mixture of Iranic and Turkic
elements. by linguistic and places that they move through history. | I agree.
A turkic people with noticeable/tangible iranic cultural influence. Just in Bulgaria nowadays there are people who are thinking that the proto-bulgarians were completely iranic people and they had absolutely nothing to do with the turkic tribes. - this is, what is not acceptable.
It is interesting that actually i am looking like an iranian. And not only i am thinking so. Different people told me that. But my opinion about my iranic features is not connected with the proto-bulgarians.
Edited by The Chargemaster - 02-Feb-2007 at 04:17
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Anton
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:02 |
Originally posted by barbar
OMG, what a ridiculuos hypothesis!!!!!! A name of a leader "Seriosly prooves" his and his people's origin????????????
I would suggest you to read more about this hypothesis before you start criticizing your friends.
What about his ansectors's names and what about their titles?
Origins are different, from clearly slavic (like Malamir, Gostun or Bezmer) to Iranic and Turkic.
what about the plenty of historical documents about Bulghars?
According to "plenty of historical documents" they are Skyths, Cimbri, Sauromati, Bulgari, Bulgares, Vulgares, Vulgari, Moesi, Hunni etc. etc.etc. Which one do you like?
What about their language and customs according to these documents?
Not very much is known about their customs and language from those documents. You can easely apply Iranian as well as Turkic theory oftheirorigin. Some even explain their inscriptions by latinized latin.
What about other possibilities: Slavic origin of this name?
It could be but I do not see how could it be explained by slavonic words. By the way this name was also met in forms of Aspar-hruk, Isperih, Ispererih, Ispor-tzar, and as far as I remember some other forms.
What about religious conversion that usually also led to the changing of the names?
exactly 0 bits of information we have about their religion before Christianity (in Danube and Italian Bulgars) and Muslim (in Volga Bulgars).
What about ........ Please, tracing the origin of a historical group is not that easy.
It is not. I do not support Iranian theory of Bulgar origin but it has much more arguments in addition to the name of Asparuh.
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Edited by Anton - 01-Feb-2007 at 17:06
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Anton
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:04 |
Originally posted by The Chargemaster
A turkic people with noticeable/tangible iranic cultural influence.
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I don't see where do you see "Turkic people with noticeable iranic influence", Charge? I would say Sarmatian people with some Turkic influence?
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Bulldog
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:09 |
I actually find such silly ideas as patronising and derogatory to actual bulgars who still retain the Bulgar language, culture and identity. The people's of Volga Bulgaria, today called Tatars and also the Christian Chuvash.
Its explicitly clear that they are Turkic, I don't even know why some Bulgarians from Bulgaria even care or argue about this, most Bulgarians I ask say the Bulgarians have nothing to do with Bulgar's today just the name, if that's the case why does it matter if Bulgar's are Turkic? cos they are and they are living today in the homeland of the Bulgars.
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Anton
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:44 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
I actually find such silly ideas as patronising and derogatory to actual bulgars who still retain the Bulgar language, culture and identity. The people's of Volga Bulgaria, today called Tatars and also the Christian Chuvash.
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OK, but they are genetically close to Mediterranians not to Altaic people and have dead many iranian words in their language. Actually, Chuvash language is sort of mix between Turkic and Iranian. What I cannot understand is the reason to search mystical pu-ku or bu-gu in Chinese chronicles and without any reason identify them as Bulgars. The same crap usually use "Iranists" trying to connect Balhara etc with Bulgarian ethnonym.
No doubt Bulgars were mixed with and were influenced by Turkic tribes coming from Asia but it's too early to consider them as Turkic tribe from Altai, Central Asia or wherever else more far than West, North and East of Black Sea. The story is definitely more comlicated than one that was created by Shafarik, Zlatarski and the gang.
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