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Topic: The three Great Islamic Empires Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 11:10 |
I think there was a strong link between these empires and it was the Persian language! |
I couldnt get how much reliable the Persian language was as a link btw the three empires. We all know that the mothertongue of both Ottoman and Safavid rulers was Turkish. Persian was the second language for literature for Ottomans, altough the language for literature was also Turkish and Persian within the Safavid rulers. Only Mughals had Persian as their official language.
BTW, the most important link btw all these empires, is that all have Turkic dynasties. Moghul dynasty was also originally Turkic commanders from the Mongol Empire...
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 11:14 |
look, using a few persian words is one thing and using the language to communicate is another. ottoman leaders spoke persian, yes. but they spoke 6-7 other languages of the world as well. |
Ottoman leaders spoke Persian (Some of them such as Sultan Selim Yavuz and Sultan Suleyman Qanuni were also great Persian-speaking poets), Safavid leaders spoke Persian and Mughal leader sspoke Persian, couldn't Persian language link these empires to each other?
Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri
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azimuth
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Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 11:16 |
then before the persian being the link there are others like Islam even there were the shia sunna differences but still all of them called themselves muslims and i guess knew how to speak arabic
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Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 11:20 |
lol
Ottoman sultans spoke Persian as a second language, with Arabic, French and some with Greek. And I bet the Safavid rulers also knew more than one language.
BTW, Safavid rulers' mothertongue was also Turkish. See the letters of Shah Ismail to Selim the Grim. And his divan, most of his poems in Turkish are today in a museum in Britain...
Shah Ismail was even more Turkish than Sultan Selim Khan. Turkish from both fatherside (Turkmen) and mother side (daughter of Uzun Hasan)...
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 13:55 |
Originally posted by azimuth
then before the persian being the link there are others like Islam even there were the shia sunna differences but still all of them called themselves muslims and i guess knew how to speak arabic
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I think religion was the major difference between Ottomans and Safavids, in fact religion was one of major reasons that they were fighting against each other!
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 23:45 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
I think there was a strong link between these empires and it was the Persian language! |
Persian Language was used in the state administration of these empires except Safavid, did you know that Cyrus? Only link between them is they were Turkic Empires...
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Super Goat (^_^)
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 02:11 |
could it be that maybe there is nothing that linked these empires?? other than being muslim....
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 06:55 |
Persian Language was used in the state administration of these empires except Safavid, did you know that Cyrus? Only link between them is they were Turkic Empires... |
Do you mean that Persian was NOT used in the state administration except the Safavids? Because Ottomans did not use Persian in administration.
Besides, being 'Turkic' is surely not the 'only' link between the three. Islam (both as religion and as a civilisation) is a thousand times more important link than rulers being of Turkic descent or the use of Persian language for letter writing...
Edited by Beylerbeyi
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HulaguHan
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Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 04:07 |
Ottomans did use Persian in administration. I do not say they only used Persian. But they used Persian.
On the contrary, Early Safavids never used Persian.
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 12-Nov-2005 at 08:13 |
Ottomans did use Persian in administration. |
Where and when was this? Write your source as well, please, I am curious.
Are you sure it is in administration? Closest thing where they used Persian is diplomacy.
Edited by Beylerbeyi
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Infidel
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Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 12:26 |
Hmmm, I thought the second language in the Ottoman Empire was arabic, even at the administration level (because of Islam and the vast Arab territories). Greek was the native tongue of most dragomans of the Porte, right?
Of course, this must depend on the different periods through which the Empire lived. Later on, french must be included as well, at least for educated people in Istanbul.
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An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 15:38 |
I'd guess the the second language would be Greek. Arabic lands came later, and were less significant. But don't really have figures on it.
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 15-Nov-2005 at 16:00 |
There were many Persian words in the Ottoman language but this doesn't mean that the language was Persian. On the other hand, education in the madrasas was in Arabic. Dragomans were Greek. In Anatolia Turkish was dominant. Also, many of the Anatolian Armenians and Greeks spoke Turkish as their mother tongue. They were writing Turkish in Greek and Armenian alphabets. Some of them could spoke their own languages and many of them couldn't.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 12:40 |
Is it true: Up until the present Revolution in Turkey the study of Persian language was compulsory in all Turkish schools and most of the high dignitaries of Ottoman Court used to recite Persian verses of Hafiz and Saadi and other great poets of Iran and considered it as a sign of culture and refinement.
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 16:42 |
It's true but I'm not sure if studying Persian was compulsory or not...
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Infidel
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 17:03 |
I thought arabic was taken into more account.
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An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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Beylerbeyi
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 17:31 |
Turkish was the main language, used for administration and military affairs, but also for other things such as art. Official Ottoman Turkish had huge influence from Arabic and Farsi. Arabic was the language of religion, learning and law. Farsi was considered a refined language, was used for diplomacy, art and letter-writing.
Farsi was not 'compulsory' in schools. Ottomans had no central authority for education to decide the curriculum, to the very end. This came with the republic. Before that all communities had their own schools and they taught whatever they liked.
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Maziar
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Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 08:05 |
I have read in some history books Farsi was the Royal court language of many Ottoman Sultans.
But the official language of Ottoman Empire was always Turkish.
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Infidel
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Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 17:57 |
Originally posted by Maziar
But the official language of Ottoman Empire was always Turkish. |
It was multiethnical, but still it was a turkish empire.
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An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
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