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Jalisco Lancer
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Topic: Should british queen apologise for RAF bombings during 2 WW Posted: 15-Nov-2004 at 12:42 |
German POWs Buried in U.S. to Be Honored
By ELLIOTT MINOR, Associated Press Writer
FORT BENNING, Ga. - They are foreign enemies buried thousands of miles from home, but they are not forgotten. Less than a week after U.S. soldiers were honored during Veterans Day, dignitaries on Wednesday are to gather and salute the hundreds of thousands of German prisoners of war taken to camps in the United States during World War II most of them in the South.
"The minimum you can do is honor these soldiers who sacrificed," said Lt. Col. Herbert R. Sladek, a member of Fort Benning's German Army liaison team, which hosts "Volkstrauertag" Germany's day of mourning.
"They were educated in another time period, with another political guideline. In their opinion, they also fought for freedom, liberty and for their fatherland. That's why these people gave all they had their own lives."
The camps are an all-but-forgotten part of history, but the prisoners did leave some remnants behind in southern Georgia and throughout the country. Some of them went on to become leaders of postwar Germany.
During World War II, the United States, which had little previous experience with foreign POWs, hastily threw up 700 internment camps to detain 425,000 enemy soldiers, who were arriving sometimes at a rate of 30,000 a month.
The German internees are still remembered for their skills and hard work. With most of America's young men overseas, the POWs helped overcome a labor shortage by harvesting crops and doing other physical labor for 80 cents a day.
"Volkstrauertag," held in Germany on the third Sunday of November, started after World War I as Germans struggled to come to terms with the loss of 5 million countrymen.
On Wednesday, the ceremony at Fort Benning cemetery is expected to honor 44 German soldiers, including a highly decorated general. U.S. Army musicians will play the German equivalent of taps.
Among the invited guests are the German consul general in Atlanta and Fort Benning's commander, Brig. Gen. Benjamin C. Freakley. Others include members of Rolling Thunder, a motorcycle club that focuses on POW-MIA issues and "Klub Heimatland," a German women's group that tends the graves.
"They are German soldiers and we feel like we want to pay our respects to them," said Inge Wills, the club's president. "It means something for us to do this for the families who cannot do it."
About 860 of the German POWs are buried at 43 sites across the United States, according to the German War Graves Commission, a private charity based in Germany that registers, maintains and cares for the graves of the country's war dead abroad. They died from illnesses, accidents and other causes.
The largest number, 108, are buried at the National Cemetery in Chattanooga, Tenn., which also has the graves of 78 World War I German POWs. Other major burial sites are Fort Sam Houston, Texas, with 133, Fort Riley, Kan., with 63 and Fort Reno, Okla., with 62, including the grave of a POW who was murdered by six fellow prisoners. They were executed.
Georgia had 40 camps with 11,800 prisoners at places like Fort Benning and what is now Fort Stewart near Savannah and Moody Air Force Base, near Valdosta. There were many smaller camps in rural areas such as Fargo, on the edge of the Okefenokee Swamp.
Lt. Gen. Willibald Borowietz, who was killed in an auto accident on July 1, 1945, is the highest-ranking POW buried at Fort Benning. According to his headstone, he received the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves the equivalent of the U.S. Medal of Honor.
"German POWs were treated very well," said Arnold Krammer, a Texas A&M history professor who has written several books on German POWs. "In some cases they were given wine and beer with every meal. Of course, prison is still prison. They were bored and unhappy."
But thousands returned to Germany fluent in English and "having a new love and respect for the United States," Krammer said. Many climbed into the hierarchy of the postwar government, while others became business executives, writers and artists, he said.
U.S. farmers paid the government for the POWs' work and the government then paid the POWs.
"Each prisoner could take back several hundred dollars or more, which helped lubricate the German economy," Krammer said. "It was one of those programs that just worked out well for everybody."
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Mosquito
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Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 13:42 |
Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli
But then why should the axis countries (and perhaps Soviet Russia) apologize for war crimes and the allies not? |
Russians have never apologised for anything and they will never apologise because they never commit any atrocities. You know, they (in their opinion) are never agressors. Practically they are always liberating someone or restoring order somwhere. Right now it is Chechenia.
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Temujin
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Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 12:46 |
well, I don't care about any apology, it was war and as it has been stated before that it was started by Germany. however a statement like "they deserved it" when talking about civilians is a a huge offense nevertheless.
why I don't want an apology? well, there was a discussion on another German forum I'm at. the local green party proposed to construct a monument for 6 US bomber crewmen (of which one could escape) who were lynched by a mob of a nearby town they recently heavily raided (a weapons factory was nearby, but large parts of the town have been struck hard with huge civilian casualties). well, the discussion was basicaly "why to construct a monument for 5 men when there isn't a single monument for the thousands of civilians that got killed during the allied air-raids?". I mean stuff like that happens, if they were killed by soldiers no one would bother, same goes for the air raids, I mean it was war, here's the news: it's quite common that people die in a war.
and what exactly is a war criminal? per definition a man that commits crime during a war... I mean come on, like war itself isn't a crime or what? WW2 was not worser than WW1 or much indifferent from any other war so why apologize. who apologizes to the dead German soldiers that have been commited by Hitler in an unprovoked war? the real worse stuff in WW2 that should be remembered was the Holocaust, the intentional killings of whole groups of people and ethnicities due to supremacist believes.
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Mr Bobo
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Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 09:30 |
I think the problems with this issue are that;
history is written by the victors and many history books will tell you that nazi germany was full of evil people doing dastardly deeds and that the allies were all saint's who could do no wrong, so many would think that no apology is needed.
also; Sorry dosnt really mean what it used to. For example in my country (Australia) the government still refuses to say sorry for the stolen generation ( a generation of Aboriginal Austrlians that were stolen from their families during the begining of the 20th century as part of plans to 'assimilate' the native population into the western culture) mainly because they fear it will open the way for massive compensation law suits and that it will weaken their current position with various aboriginal organisations. This could potentially be a reason behind the British not saying sorry.
Also some people could take it as justification for some of the inhumane things that the Axis did during the war. Even though this might sound silly, some people think that way.
Even agaisnt all that, i believe that the countries previously of the Allies of the 2nd ww should come to terms with the countrys previously of the Axis, and if countries such as germany and japan say sorry for the inhumane things they have done in the past others countries should follow their example.
If there is feeling in countries such as Germany that an appology needs to be forth-coming from the allies then its best to level the playing field rather than sweep it all under the rug. Its better to deal with these kind of issues in a straight manner then all parties invovled feel that justice is done.
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 09-Nov-2004 at 06:34 |
Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli
Can't we all just say it was a dark, terrible episode in our history, that we're all sorry it happened, and instead of bickering over who was right or wrong, work toward a future mutually beneficial for all of us? | But then why should the axis countries (and perhaps Soviet Russia) apologize for war crimes and the allies not? |
Good Response,pal.
i also believe that the British should apoligize.why?because the German president still makes visits to apoligize.and if the Germans demand that from the British,it would be better off for the German-British Relations.A true comprimise can be reached.
During the second world war,allies also commited crimes..Especially use of atom bombs againts humanity was really unnecassary for an unnecassary war as well-defined by Winston Churchill.
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 18:58 |
Can't we all just say it was a dark, terrible episode in our
history,
that we're all sorry it happened, and instead of bickering over who was
right or wrong, work toward a future mutually beneficial for all of
us? |
But then why should the axis countries (and perhaps Soviet
Russia) apologize for war crimes and the allies not?
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Genghis
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 18:42 |
Can't we all just say it was a dark, terrible episode in our history, that we're all sorry it happened, and instead of bickering over who was right or wrong, work toward a future mutually beneficial for all of us?
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Mosquito
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 18:29 |
Well, everyone knows that Germans started the war. Everyone knows that they are responsible for holocaust. Everyone knows that they were the first who started bombing cities and even defenceless civilians on the roads. The same what allies did to Dresden earlier Germans did to Warsaw and other cities. If they had better bombers they would have probably done it also to London. But Germans recognised their guilt and apologised many nations many times.
I just wonder if such human gesture like apologising not even Germany as state but descendants and relatives of those who died and who also were defenceless civilians bombed from air, just innocent victims, would be right or not?
Noone is denying the fact that it are Germans who were responsible for 2 WW, including guilt for all german victims of war. But some allied actions (eg. bombing Dresden) didnt have even any military reason.
I belive that if someone says that USA and GB shouldnt apologise Germans for their victims, he means that all the Germans were evil nazists and that none of them deserves our compassion. Can we agree with such statement? Can we say that all Germans were evil so it doesnt matter how many of their civilians died?
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 13:51 |
On the other hand, if Japan or a non-specified other country deny of
try to justify the atrocities they've committed in the past, the whole
world is upset. I don't see why the WW2 allies should not apology but
others should.
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cattus
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 13:37 |
No to apology. No to all apologies. Let the chapter be closed on a war that is over and gone. The world is of a different mentality now in a different century and countrymen cant be held accountable by its standard and a generation that is all but gone.
I say Germany has paid the price. The extortion of sorrys from leaders and money from companies such as Volkswagen is taking us backward. Onward!
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Cornellia
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 12:16 |
er....that's not a fair election in the US ( a democratic country)....and say what you will, but Bush wasn't elected that way.
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Temujin
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 12:07 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
Those leaders werent on a ticket that had them elected by popular support! That is the difference. If someoen attacks me and has no regards for my saftey, then Im gonna hit back with everthing I ve got, I would be a fool not too.
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elected? are you dumb or somethng? NSDAP had not even 40% of the seats in the Reichstag, Hitlers rise to power was due to the arresting of Communists prior to the Chancelors elections and bribing or threatening of other senate members to elect him! maybe that's a fair election if your president is Bush, but not in a democratic country! left alone Hindenburg who appointed him and was a retard and nationalist himself, unlike what Americans (and unfortunately most Germans) seemingly believe...
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Tobodai
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Posted: 08-Nov-2004 at 00:26 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Originally posted by Tobodai
They asked for it and got what they deserved. |
yeah, maybe you want to go to Iran or Nk now and kill soem innocent civilians since they asked for it. i mean they're beign surpressed by an evil regime and can't do anythign against, they certainly have deserved to die....
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Those leaders werent on a ticket that had them elected by popular support! That is the difference. If someoen attacks me and has no regards for my saftey, then Im gonna hit back with everthing I ve got, I would be a fool not too.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 07-Nov-2004 at 09:46 |
The Allied bombings of civilian housing, Dresden being the most obvious example, had nothing to do with winning the war - it was pure revenge, simple as that. Don't make the mistake to compare it with the bombing of strategical targets or the nuclear bombs, which actually had the purpose to end the war.
On the original question, I voted no. The Germans did ask for it, after all.
Originally posted by Anujkhamar
on a serious note, if the qween apoligises, then i do feel that germany
should apoligise back, followed by an apology to the rest of the world.
but we all know that this is never going to happen.
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Where have you been the last 60 years? The Germans have done nothing but continously apologizing...
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 07-Nov-2004 at 09:38 |
on a serious note, if the qween apoligises, then i do feel that germany
should apoligise back, followed by an apology to the rest of the world.
but we all know that this is never going to happen.
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Anujkhamar
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Posted: 07-Nov-2004 at 09:35 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
no Germany started the civilian bombing not in Britain, but in POland. |
reminds me of in fawlty towers in "the germans" episode.
"You started it" - A German guest
"No i didn't, you that invaded poland!" - Basil Fawlty
lol
Edited by Anujkhamar
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Temujin
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Posted: 05-Nov-2004 at 12:18 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
They asked for it and got what they deserved. |
yeah, maybe you want to go to Iran or Nk now and kill soem innocent civilians since they asked for it. i mean they're beign surpressed by an evil regime and can't do anythign against, they certainly have deserved to die....
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Cywr
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Posted: 03-Nov-2004 at 23:13 |
The Germans carpet bombed the centre of Rotterdam right at the begining
too, a 'shock and awe' type tactic designed to push the Dutch into
submission, worked too.
And lets not forget Guernica.
No, such bombing was a tactic already in the Lufwaffe's books, we don't
need to pretend it was an accident, not that it gives the US/UK an
excuse though, aside from strategic bombing it was seen as a tactic to
lower morale, ironicly, in both Germany in the UK, it seems to have
increases a resolve of defiance.
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Abyssmal Fiend
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Posted: 03-Nov-2004 at 19:30 |
And who replied to it? No one. I'm not sure if it's true, it may or may not be, but as it stands, the entire American and British bombing raids were instigated in London.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 03-Nov-2004 at 19:15 |
no Germany started the civilian bombing not in Britain, but in POland. Therefore it was an established tactic. When fighting a fanatic nation where th eleadership has popular support , th eonly way to true win to completely crush th eopposistion. Of course it would have been much more poetic had we let the Russians drop most of the bombs.
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