QuoteReplyTopic: Slavization of Eastern Europe! Posted: 14-Jan-2011 at 00:58
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis
Originally posted by TheNode
I don`t care about mainstream historiography.
Boohoo, what else do you not care about? Anyone that put their whole life into something, even if they are wrong, should not be disrespected, as they have attributed one way or another to society. Without understanding the official Historical communities/society point of view, how can you develop your own? It is this kind of thinking that gives rise to idiocy in our world, the idiocy seen in Europe today, to give an example, Ukranian historical re-invention: The Ukr's, etc. etc. I suggest taking on a profession that suits your denial of reality, for example, the Arts.
TheNode, welcome on the forum! Of courseI donotdeny mainstream historiography at all, but I'm sure youwill agreethat inmany cases mainstream historiography was wrong. Till 1960 was thoughtthatColumbuswasthe firstEuropean toset footinAmerica. Thisthingwas writteninhistory textbook of my father. Then was provedthat the legend about "Vinland" is historicaltruth. Byarchaeological finds. I don`t like mainstream things in many aspects of life. In the17century,scientistshaveburnedat the stakebecause theydisagreedwithconventional wisdom about flat earth.
Why do you thinkthe theoryofthe linkbetweenSlavs and Sarmatians is so incredible?
Thank you! I agree, mainstream historiography isn't the perfect collection of knowledge that we all like to believe it is. The link between the east Slavs and the Sarmatians is so incredible is most likely because they were assimilated, at one instance having a some sort of union. What does fascinate me is, the area of absolutely no written record, of mentioning of the Slavic population prior to the great migration.
what does it mean "pure slavic" ? Can we say about Poles or Czechs or Ruthenians over 1000 years ago before they accepted christianity and became "nations" that were "pure slavic". They were already mixed with Awars and rpobably earlier some of them mixed with Sarmatians and God only knows with who else. Just like genetic map shows.
Though nobody has ever been "pure" anything, I am thinking about neolithic times and indigenous inhabitants (Neolithic periods probably saw far less large scale migrations and thus far fewer inter marriages). I think slavs are indigenous to parts of west Russia, Belarus and Ukraine and that they are related to indigenous Finno Ugaric peoples of western Siberia.
Boohoo, what else do you not care about? Anyone that put their whole life into something, even if they are wrong, should not be disrespected, as they have attributed one way or another to society. Without understanding the official Historical communities/society point of view, how can you develop your own? It is this kind of thinking that gives rise to idiocy in our world, the idiocy seen in Europe today, to give an example, Ukranian historical re-invention: The Ukr's, etc. etc. I suggest taking on a profession that suits your denial of reality, for example, the Arts.
TheNode, welcome on the forum! Of courseI donotdeny mainstream historiography at all, but I'm sure youwill agreethat inmany cases mainstream historiography was wrong. Till 1960 was thoughtthatColumbuswasthe firstEuropean toset footinAmerica. Thisthingwas writteninhistory textbook of my father. Then was provedthat the legend about "Vinland" is historicaltruth. Byarchaeological finds. I don`t like mainstream things in many aspects of life. In the17century,scientistshaveburnedat the stakebecause theydisagreedwithconventional wisdom about flat earth.
Why do you thinkthe theoryofthe linkbetweenSlavs and Sarmatians is so incredible?
I call you an idiot because you are an idiot. Why dont you read some history books before posting such nuissences?
That is exactly what I was thinking .
...but it seems in the next centuries Slavs, without forming a solid empire, gradually spread all over this region and replaced almost all languages which were spoken in this region for thousands years with their own language!
Every time someone starts a topic on the Slavic people/s, a sh*t storm breaks out, literally, like on stormfront, with arguments as naive as the people that make up the community. As historians, our goal is to observe history. Another problem that arises: many people do not understand how to discuss. First of all, keeping to the topic is the easiest, and logical, if to mention something that deviates, a minor reference to it is acceptable, starting a new topic for this would suffice.
As I can see, Cyrus has started a topic that relates to the accepted theory of the migration period in the 5th to 6th century AD.
If this theory is correct, than we could say that the ancestors of "Slavs" were semi-nomad and it is quite hard to find their original homeland.
I'm not sure if you are describing the "original" homeland in the infinite sense, that it could never be found. Just to note, and I'm sure everyone already knows this: most cultures and ethnicities were at some point in time nomadic and semi-nomadic. In context, there was such a peoples that was mentioned to be semi-nomadic, these were the Antes I believe. In relation to the "homeland", there are ways to trace these, including the use of Hydronyms/Toponyms, which has already been described, and researched, the proposed homeland being in an area bordering Poland,Ukraine,Belorussia and others.
You keep posting pseduo-scientific, amateur theories, contradicted by historical evidences and by mainstream historiography.
...their archaeological culture is known and is more developped and different of the Slavic one.
I do not exactly agree, but do not think it is wise to go into detail, I propose maybe another topic for discussing this (if necessary).
The homeland of Slavs was not the territory of present Ukraine because here are attested archaeologically the Scythians (later called Sarmatians), which have had a superior material culture. Slavs appear in archaeology and literary sources as a very primitive people, which must have originated far from the relatively civilised areas of Black Sea (Scythian and Greek cultures).
Scythian culture? I believe you might mean the Near East technological diffusion which influenced development of these areas. As the proposed homeland of the Slavic people/s bordered many a neighbor, it is very contradictory, as the Slavs, would probably have had contact with its Southern neighbors more than its North, as suggested by linguistics.
I don`t care about mainstream historiography.
Boohoo, what else do you not care about? Anyone that put their whole life into something, even if they are wrong, should not be disrespected, as they have attributed one way or another to society. Without understanding the official Historical communities/society point of view, how can you develop your own? It is this kind of thinking that gives rise to idiocy in our world, the idiocy seen in Europe today, to give an example, Ukranian historical re-invention: The Ukr's, etc. etc. I suggest taking on a profession that suits your denial of reality, for example, the Arts.
Could the clothing be influenced by the Cossack - Crimean Tartar cultural connection? In addition, there used to be a larger Tatar population in Poland and Ukraine. I think the cossacks could are teh most likelty source. The cossacks (whether Russian, Ukrainian or Polish in origin) were / are not only Christians, but have a warrior reputation. This could have made their clothing popular or "cool" in Poland and elsewhere.
There were a many turkic/tatar settlements in Slavic nations, since we are touching on Ukraine, there was one in Kiev. Clothing is not a very reliable source for interpretation, in terms of mass of people, especially the Romantic elite of Poland of that time, as mentioned by V. G. Childe.
It is important to know what Slavic and Iranian people themselves believe, three Slavic brothers were Lech, Czech and Rus (ancestors of Lechians/Poles, Czechs and Russians) and three Iranian brothers were Salm, Tur and Iraj (ancestor of Sarmatians, Turanians and Iranians), I think this is just a modern claim that Sarmatians were the ancestor of a Slavic people.
Interesting, I didn't know that. But I believe the Lech,Czech,Rus is not a very old legend, I would say, a medieval invention. The Idea that the Sarmatians could have been the ancestors of the Slavic people was developed in the 18th century, amongst many others in this area who, in the belief that Slavs were 'under' these names and/or wrongly named, which could be, of course, but this is just one aspect and cannot obviously determine the whole.
As this is my first post, please don't think harshly of me if I have offended you in any way.
The topic of the Slavs is always controversial, reason being, is that there is almost no evidence, only as the migration period bursts onto the world stage, are the Slavs noticed, this is also the reason for the 18/19th century historians who tried find the Slavic people/s under different names/places etc. As the age old dilemma with History, sometimes, historians fill in the blanks, sometimes romanticize events, people, etc. To give meaning to something otherwise not seen on the broader sense, as they say, "...build castles in the clouds" with an array of motivations, including political. With the history of the Slavs, with prior to the migration period, there is a lot of blanks, which are easily filled not only by historians, but by people, with an array of complexes. As far as I can see, in terms of linguistics, this has hardly been discussed, amongst other things, though I doubt the topic of discussion will be improved by this. This type and/or style of discussion is becoming rather old, this is almost exactly what happened in the 18th/19th century, where Germany and Russia were corresponding on the History of Russia/Slavic people/s, each with their own agenda; whether political or patriotic.
aye, most of lawyers are idiots... especially judges.
In most of countries, as far as I know ( and I talked with many people about it), law studies are big memory training and promote idividuals who can absorb more useless informations than others. Usually lawyers do learn their job and master their skills in first job or jobs. The most important is to get good boss/teacher on the begining of career.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Heh! Considering some of the experiences I've had with attorneys, I don't find that surprising.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Latin in Poland wasnt a dead language, it was rather part of Polish culture.
You are not aware what a dead language is. A dead language is language which is no longer spoken by anyone as his or her main language.
and what is "main language" ?
Latin was for centuries the main language of christian clergy, diplomats and scientist's. If you knew latin, you could have studied in every university in Europe, from Bologna and Padua in the south of Europe to Krakow and Vilnius in the north. From Vilnius, Krakow and Prague in the east, to University of Oxford or Trinity College Dublin in the west. If you knew latin you could have been up to date with the most recent works of scientist's and philosopher's, you could have take part in international negotiations, go in diplomatic missions from one side of Europe to another or without any problem travel on the vast territory of multinational Republic of Poland and Lithuania as far as reached its borders to Smolensk or Crimea. Pretty well like for a dead language.
Edited by Mosquito - 09-Jan-2011 at 11:27
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Latin in Poland wasnt a dead language, it was rather part of Polish culture.
You are not aware what a dead language is. A dead language is language which is no longer spoken by anyone as his or her main language.
Instead they used vulgarised latin which later changed into Occitan, Spanish, Italian, French or reinginiered Romanian.
You keep repeating that thing with "reengineered Romanian". Romanian is not reengineered. Is the same language spoken in 18th century or before but with neologisms (similar to other European languages). For example, the Vlachs from Timok valley (in Serbia and Bulgaria) who never been influenced by cultural changes in Romania of last centuries, speak a completely similar Romanian language but without the neologisms.
So, there is totally untrue that Romanian is an engineered language. Inform yourself before making such assertions.
As for Vulgar Latin, the modifications that spoken Latin suffered in different areas of Europe in Antiquity and Middle Age are more interesting than a dead language like Classic Latin. And the most interesting case is Romania, because different than all other countries and regions, here Latin was never used in writing and Classic Latin never influenced the spoken Latin. It's the most genuine form of a Romance language and paradoxally, the closest to the original Latin, at least in grammar.
Again, it's not the language in itself that makes such a heritage precious but the history it speaks about. Languages that originated in Vulgar Latin speak about perennialty, resistence in front of migratory peoples, influence of the substratum.
Can not be compared the use of Latin as a dead language with being a Latin people. Being Latin is being part of the old history of Europe, but Latin in itself is not a noble language or culture. Rome, like the Arab conquest, destroyed many civilizations and cultures and is a shame to be the satellite of a foreign culture.
Latin in Poland wasnt a dead language, it was rather part of Polish culture. Whats more, people were writing books in latin, which were later read by the people in the rest of Europe, without the need to be translated. In that way Polish scientists or philosophers were taking part in pan-european debates. Many Polish books were translated into Polish in the 20th century because earlier there was no need to translate them, as the use of latin was so common.
And please note that we talk about "classic latin". In the XV, XVI or XVII century it was more live language than in the Roman Empire in the 4th or 5th century. That time only Roman elites knew classic latin, normal people did not even understand it. Instead they used vulgarised latin which later changed into Occitan, Spanish, Italian, French or reinginiered Romanian.
Latin literature in Europe was alive, people who wanted to reach international readers were writing in latin.
In latin was writing Copernicus (Mikolaj Kopernik), in latin was writing his books famous Polish reneissance philosopher Modrevius (Andrzej Frycz Modrzewski) and also in latin wrote his books Polish soldier Casimirus Siemienowicz (Kazimierz Siemienowicz), whose book Artis Magnae Artilleriae became standart artillery manual in whole Europe for two centuries.
Latin language allowed people from all sides of Europe to exchange their thouths. For example - the character of "POLONIUS" from William Shakespare's "HAMLET" was invented by authour (an Englishman) after reading books written in latin by Polish authour - Wawrzyniec Grzymala Goslicki (latin form: Laurentius Grimaldius Goslicius), titled "De optimo senatore", a book on statesmanship. "Polonius" is Latin for "Polish". The English translation of the book refers to its author as a statesman of the "polonian empyre".
That time it wasnt shame to use classic latin - but it was a shame to use barbarised and vulgarised latin.
If this hypothesis is correct, it suggests in turn that Polish heraldry, also unlike western European heraldry, may be at least partly derived from a kind of rune-like symbols: the TAMGAS used by nomadic peoples of the Steppe, such as the Sarmatians or the Avars, to mark property. However, the evidence about the origins of the system is scanty, and this hypothesis has been criticized as being part of the Polish noble tradition of romanticizing their supposed Sarmatian ancestry. On this matter, research and controversy continue.
Hungarians had a rune-like script which is well attested but the use of such runes or symbols by Poles is not, if I'm not wrong. So to prove the connection with Sarmatians there must be some evidence.
Sarmatians are well attested archaeologically in Romania in at least 134 places, that is a historical fact and no doubt, Romanians (especially in Banat and Moldavia where at at some times they may have been majoritary) have much Sarmatian blood. But the theory of Sarmatian origin of Polish nobility has great chances to be just a typical medieval ancestry claim, similar to Hungarian imaginary claim of Hunnic ancestry. And is just one of the theories, among other fanciful theories:
Two popular historic theories of origin forwarded by its members and earlier historians and chroniclers involved descent from the Sarmatians or from Japheth, one of Noah's sons (by contrast, the peasantry were said to be the offspring of another son of Noah, Ham - and hence subject to bondage under the Curse of Ham - and the Jews as the offspring of Shem). Other, since discredited theories included its foundation by Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, alien visitations, and regional leaders who had not mixed their bloodlines with those of 'slaves, prisoners, and aliens'. Szlachta
Actually Poland has probably bigger latin traditions than Romania. Latin language was for centuries offcial language of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, French traveller in the 17th century wrote that in Poland "is more latinists than in Latium" and latin language highly influenced Polish, without any intentional enginiering. In the same time elites living on the territory of modern day Romania were learning Polish language and almost didnt know latin culture. It was Poland that was spreading latin culture, literature and architecture in the central and eastern Europe.
Being a Latin people is being part of the old history of Europe, but Latin is not a noble language or culture. Rome destroyed many civilizations and cultures and even if it was peaceful, I think is a shame to be the satellite of a foreign culture.
But anyway, can't be compared the use of Latin as a dead language with speaking natively a Latin language. Is about the collective psyche influenced by the grammar and historical context of that language.
19th century Romanian intellectuals were naively proud of their Latin heritage (like were, perhaps, the Medieval Poles of their claimed Sarmatian origin) and that was the cause of trying to change the language, especially in the writing system.
Actually Poland has probably bigger latin traditions than Romania. Latin language was for centuries offcial language of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, French traveller in the 17th century wrote that in Poland "is more latinists than in Latium" and latin language highly influenced Polish, without any intentional enginiering. In the same time elites living on the territory of modern day Romania were learning Polish language and almost didnt know latin culture. It was Poland that was spreading latin culture, literature and architecture in the central and eastern Europe.
Edited by Mosquito - 08-Jan-2011 at 19:56
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
This is a controversed topic. The oldest European coats of arms are from 12th century, when is hard to believe that were still used signs of ancient steppe people in Poland or elsewhere, especially if there is not archaeological evidence that Poles used such signs in Early Middle Age and later. More probably it was a parallel development (Sarmatian and Medieval Polish) with similar results or is a forced interpretation by Polish historians.
There is plenty of such parallel developments, for example the swastika appears in many cultures, without connection between them.
Although the Polish heraldic system evolved under the influence of French and German heraldry, there are many notable differences.
The most striking peculiarity of the system is that a coat of arms does not belong to a single family. A number of unrelated families (sometimes hundreds of them), usually with a number of different family names, may use the same, undifferenced coat of arms, and each coat of arms has its own name. The total number of coats of arms in this system was relatively low – ca. 200 in the late Middle Ages. The same can be also seen in Western Europe, when families of different surnames but sharing clan origin would use similar coats-of-arms, the fleur-de-lis of the many Capetian families being perhaps the best known example.
One side-effect of this unique arrangement was that it became customary to refer to noblemen by both their family name and their coat of arms name (or clan name). For example: Jan ZamoyskiherbuJelita means Jan Zamoyski of the Jelita coat of arms (though it is often translated as ... of the clan Jelita ). From 15th to 17th centuries, the formula seems to have been to copy the ancient Roman naming convention: praenomen (or given name), nomen gentile (or Gens/Clan name) and cognomen (surname), following the Renaissence fashion. So we have: Jan Jelita Zamoyski, forming a double-barrelled name (nazwisko złożone, literally compound name). Later, the double-barrelled name began to be joined with a hyphen: Jan Jelita-Zamoyski. (See Polish names). The Polish émigrés of 19th century sometimes used adaptations of their names according to the Western European (mainly French) style, becoming (to use the same example): Jan de Jelita-Zamoyski or Jan Zamoyski de Jelita. Some would also keep the Latin forms of their surnames, as Latin was the official language of the Kingdom of Poland. Hence the popularity of Late-Medieval or Early-Modern forms such as "de Zamosc Zamoyski".
A single coat of arms could appear in slightly different versions, typically in different colours, depending on the custom of the family using it. Such modifications ( odmiany ) are still considered to represent the same coat of arms.
One of the most visually striking characteristics of Polish heraldry is the abundance of gules (red) fields. Among the oldest coats of arms in Poland, nearly half use a red background, with blue (azure) coming in a distant second. Nowhere else in Europe shows such a strong bias towards a particular color scheme. It follows however the well known heraldic custom of all Europe that the vassals would follow the colour-scheme of their overlord. It had even a practical meaning in the battlefield.
Other typical features used in Polish heraldry include horseshoes, arrows, Maltese crosses, scythes, stars and crescents. There are also many purely geometrical shapes for which a separate set of heraldic terms was invented. It has been suggested that originally all Polish coats of arms were based on such abstract geometrical shapes, but most were gradually "rationalized" into horseshoes, arrows and so on. If this hypothesis is correct, it suggests in turn that Polish heraldry, also unlike western European heraldry, may be at least partly derived from a kind of rune-like symbols: the TAMGAS used by nomadic peoples of the Steppe, such as the Sarmatians or the Avars, to mark property. However, the evidence about the origins of the system is scanty, and this hypothesis has been criticized as being part of the Polish noble tradition of romanticizing their supposed Sarmatian ancestry. On this matter, research and controversy continue.
A Polish coat of arms consists of: shield, crest, helm and crown. The 18th and 19th centuries fashion includes the mantling. Supporters, mottos and compartments normally do not appear, although certain individuals used them, especially in the final stages of the system's development, partly in response to French and German influence. Preserved medieval evidence shows Polish coats-of-arms with mantling and supporters.
Edited by Mosquito - 08-Jan-2011 at 19:33
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
Mosquito, ancient Bulgar were not a Turkic nation. It is more likelytheywereofIraniangroup of Scythians. Descendants of Avars lived even today in Caucasus- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Avars and they don`t have Turkic origin, as "mainstream historiography" claims about their Medieval forefathers who havegonewest. The dogma about "Turkic" Avar Khaganate was born in 19th century and adoptedas somethingundeniably. There are also many examplesofabsurdities in historiography. It is also very interesting how the language of such a primitive people like Slavs (as official Romanian propaganda announced) had been clerical language for centuries in Wallahia and Moldavia and replacedthe useof such a superior language like Latin/Romance- heritageofthe mightyRomanEmpire and always used by majority of the people.
Menumorut, I said before that Alans (ancestorsof theOssetians) were different from Sarmatians. Their history is well-known and there are many signs about presence of Alans across all Europe in late Antiquity. CertainlytheyhavespokenIranianlanguage, but apparently otherhorsenations have livedin thesteppeunless Iranic people. What about Magyars (Finno-Ugrians) and Avars (Caucasians)? They even weren`t Indo-Europeans, but I think that not only Iranic tribes had a monopoly in steppe from IE group.
Actually Kanas_Krumesis is right and you are wrong. His own nation is a best example. Bulgars came from completelly different place than Slavs and were not related with them but adopted slavic language and culture. Moreless in the same time Awars did merged with Slavs and dissapeard. The same probably happend to Sarmatians who also most probably - merged with Slavs and dissapeared. History didnt notice their great migrations, they stayed on the same place but absorbed the great wave of newcomers.
I don't see in what I disagree with you.
Same happend with people living on the area of modern day Romania. In 1850 about 50 % of Romanian vocabulary was of slavic origin. Since that time the language is being reinginiered what was official policy of Romanian state and today only about 14 % of Romanian vocabulary is of slavic origin. Romanian language and nation is an example of self made enginiering due to inferiority complex that they suffered towards its neighbours.
The vocabulary may be 50% Slavic but the Grammar is 95% Latin and the main words are mostly Latin. Most Slavic words are of less important and archaic definitions.
It was a tendecy of reengineering the language in 19th century which now is abandoned. The fact that the Romanian vocabulary changed so much in the last century and a half is because of the introduction of many neologisms, even when words with the same meaning existed (I deplore this). But this introduction of neologisms (which may account for 30-40% of today words) was not with a nationalistic intent, rather a pragmatic one and in some degree an intelectual snobism.
19th century Romanian intellectuals were naively proud of their Latin heritage (like were, perhaps, the Medieval Poles of their claimed Sarmatian origin) and that was the cause of trying to change the language, especially in the writing system.
As for Sarmatian influences in Poland probably the biggest research was made by well known all over the world prof. Tadeusz Sulimirski, whose book "Sarmatians" was published in many countries. He did discover that many coats of arms of Polish nobility comes from sarmatian tamga's.
This is a controversed topic. The oldest European coats of arms are from 12th century, when is hard to believe that were still used signs of ancient steppe people in Poland or elsewhere, especially if there is not archaeological evidence that Poles used such signs in Early Middle Age and later. More probably it was a parallel development (Sarmatian and Medieval Polish) with similar results or is a forced interpretation by Polish historians.
There is plenty of such parallel developments, for example the swastika appears in many cultures, without connection between them.
1. I ask again about archeological and historical sources, indicating what language is spoken among the ancient Sarmatians. I assume that such could have, but at least I still have not found. I don`t care about mainstream historiography.
As I told you, the epigraphical sources show that Sarmatian names were Iranian in origin and related to Ossetian language which also is an Iranian language.
You can find a scientific study here, for example:
Or you can check any other website based on scholar studies. On Wikipedia page about Scythian languages you can find some books related to the matter (in the footnotes). On the same Wiki page you can find that Sarmatian is the second period of Scythian languages, dated 300-400 CE:
Historians normally divide the Scytho-Sarmatian group chronologically rather than geographically:
-Scythian (ca. 800 - 300 BC), mainly evidenced in Classical Greek authors
-Sarmatian (ca. 300 BC - AD 400), mainly evidenced in Hellenistic and Roman inscriptions
-Alanic (ca. AD 400 - 1000), mainly evidenced in Byzantine Greek authors
You can find on these two pages examples of Sarmatian language. This should make you convinced that Sarmatian/Scythian (the same thing) was an Iranian language.
2. Scythians and Sarmatians were two different group of tribes. Scythian were defeated by Sarmatians according Roman authors.
No, its only a chronological difference. In older, classical sources the Western Sythians are named like that (Scythians) and in those from late Antiquity they are named Sarmatians.
Ancient Greeks named "Scythians" all the people living in the steppes from North Black Sea to Asia, including some not Iranian speaking. Even Dobruja was named Mynor Scythia in Antiquity, when in fact it was inhabited mainly by Dacians, with some smaller groups of Greeks (in the Greek colonies) and Scythians.
But the people who inhabited what is today Ukraina and parts of Republic of Moldavia were a a group that has spoken an Iranian language and has a distinct material culture, with a flourishing art of metals:
Scythian Art. And they are called by historians Scythians, later Sarmatians and Alans. Is the same people.
What is your evidence about primitivism of Slavic culture? Some sources? I`m not sure that Slavic culture was more primitive than semi-nomad Vlachian/Aromanian shepherds culture, presented by modern Romanian historiography as direct succesor of Roman civilization. Don`t forget about your "Slavic" roots too
If you would have read some historical records on Early Slavs (like the ones of Procopius) and studies on their archaeological discoveries you would have find the same ideas: Slavs were primitive people. Is true that the Protoromanian and Protoaromanian were no more different but their material culture (at least that of Protoromanians, which I know in some degree) has evident traits of Dacian and Roman origin (in pottery mainly).
In some aspects, like the art of fibulas, Slavs were superior the Protoromanians: Slavic fibula.
I don't deny my Slavic origin but is funny that you make such remarl when you are denying your Thraco-Roman origin against evidences.
Not the ancestors Cyrus but one of the groups of people that were probably assimilated by Slavs, just like Awars. I would say that Slavs were getting more numerous by absorbing other people like Bulgars (Turks), Awars (nobody knows who were they) and maybe also Sarmatians (Iranians).
We have also other examples which are better documented. Prussians (Balts) were partly germanised and partly polonised, big part of the Lithuanian and Ukrainian society, especially elites, were polonised. As well as the languages of neighbouring countries influence one each other, like German and Polish, Polish and Ukrainian or Lithuanian. From more rare interesting facts : Polish was an official language used in XVI and XVII century on Russian court and almost became one of the official languages in Israel (Jews are not Slavs at all) :). In the 17th century Polish was also the language used by elites of Wallahia and Moldavia (modern Romania).
So the language can be transffered on other people, even completelly different and can be adopted by them. Today it is impossible to say how many Slavic speaking people really come from original Slavs and how many just were assimilated with them, like Bulgars, Awars and maybe... Sarmatians?
Edited by Mosquito - 08-Jan-2011 at 14:28
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
1. I ask again about archeological and historical sources, indicatingwhatlanguageisspoken among the ancientSarmatians. I assumethatsuchcouldhave, butat leastIstillhave notfound. I don`t care about mainstream historiography.
2. Scythians and Sarmatians were two different group of tribes. Scythian weredefeatedby Sarmatians according Roman authors. What is your evidence about primitivism of Slavic culture? Some sources? I`m not sure that Slavic culture was more primitive than semi-nomad Vlachian/Aromanian shepherds culture, presented by modern Romanian historiography as direct succesor of Roman civilization. Don`t forget about your "Slavic" roots too
It is important to know what Slavic and Iranian people themselves believe, three Slavic brothers were Lech, Czech and Rus (ancestors of Lechians/Poles, Czechs and Russians) and three Iranian brothers were Salm, Tur and Iraj (ancestor of Sarmatians, Turanians and Iranians), I think this is just a modern claim that Sarmatians were the ancestor of a Slavic people.
Are we talking about truth!?!Linguistic theory can not accept that such a huge population speak same language from nowhere.Only solution is that people and language were here but out of regular state statistic .Inside are parts of so many groups of other nationalities like minorities.Kanas Krumesis ,with all respect,you want to say with post above that ancestors of Egyptians,part of them, and their migration all around Mediterranean sea are nomadic tribes?They made this civilization.But we are blind to see them.7000 years of civilization and how big migration population historians just wiped out. There DNA are in more than half of European population of Europe, also inside the European migration on other continents.
1. My opinion is that the ancestors of "Slavs" from the modern times, were present in historical sources as "Sarmatians". Something more, even "Slavic" nations like Polish and Croatian have deep-rooted opinion about their Sarmatian origin. Sarmatism was well-known ideology among Polish nobility till 18th century. They wore a coat called zupan (or kontusz) and thought it brought them closer to their Sarmatian ancestors. Zupan looks like this:
You keep posting pseduo-scientific, amateur theories, contradicted by historical evidences and by mainstream historiography.
The Sarmatians are well known from archeological and historical sources, they were not Slavs but an Iranian speaking people. They are attested on the territory of Romania too.
It's very possible that in sources from Late Antiquity the Slavs were named Sarmatians (such false identifications by the territory were common) but that doesn't mean that the original Sarmatians were Slavs. Their names are attested epigraphically and are Iranian, their archaeological culture is known and is more developped and different of the Slavic one.
The homeland of Slavs was not the territory of present Ukraine because here are attested archaeologically the Scythians (later called Sarmatians), which have had a superior material culture. Slavs appear in archaeology and literary sources as a very primitive people, which must have originated far from the relatively civilised areas of Black Sea (Scythian and Greek cultures).
Slavs' homeland must be somewhere close to the Baltic region, their language being part of the same family with that of Baltic people: Balto-Slavic languages.
Actually Kanas_Krumesis is right and you are wrong. His own nation is a best example. Bulgars came from completelly different place than Slavs and were not related with them but adopted slavic language and culture. Moreless in the same time Awars did merged with Slavs and dissapeard. The same probably happend to Sarmatians who also most probably - merged with Slavs and dissapeared. History didnt notice their great migrations, they stayed on the same place but absorbed the great wave of newcomers.
Same happend with people living on the area of modern day Romania. In 1850 about 50 % of Romanian vocabulary was of slavic origin. Since that time the language is being reinginiered what was official policy of Romanian state and today only about 14 % of Romanian vocabulary is of slavic origin. Romanian language and nation is an example of self made enginiering due to inferiority complex that they suffered towards its neighbours.
As for Sarmatian influences in Poland probably the biggest research was made by well known all over the world prof. Tadeusz Sulimirski, whose book "Sarmatians" was published in many countries. He did discover that many coats of arms of Polish nobility comes from sarmatian tamga's.
Edited by Mosquito - 08-Jan-2011 at 12:21
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
You keep posting pseduo-scientific, amateur theories, contradicted by historical evidences and by mainstream historiography.
The Sarmatians are well known from archeological and historical sources, they were not Slavs but an Iranian speaking people. They are attested on the territory of Romania too.
It's very possible that in sources from Late Antiquity the Slavs were named Sarmatians (such false identifications by the territory were common) but that doesn't mean that the original Sarmatians were Slavs. Their names are attested epigraphically and are Iranian, their archaeological culture is known and is more developped and different of the Slavic one.
The homeland of Slavs was not the territory of present Ukraine because here are attested archaeologically the Scythians (later called Sarmatians), which have had a superior material culture. Slavs appear in archaeology and literary sources as a very primitive people, which must have originated far from the relatively civilised areas of Black Sea (Scythian and Greek cultures).
Slavs' homeland must be somewhere close to the Baltic region, their language being part of the same family with that of Baltic people: Balto-Slavic languages.
1. I ask again about archeological and historical sources, indicatingwhatlanguageisspoken among the ancientSarmatians. I assumethatsuchcouldhave, butat leastIstillhave notfound. I don`t care about mainstream historiography.
2. Scythians and Sarmatians were two different group of tribes. Scythian weredefeatedby Sarmatians according Roman authors. What is your evidence about primitivism of Slavic culture? Some sources? I`m not sure that Slavic culture was more primitive than semi-nomad Vlachian/Aromanian shepherds culture, presented by modern Romanian historiography as direct succesor of Roman civilization. Don`t forget about your "Slavic" roots too
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