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Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire
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King Kang of Mu View Drop Down
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire
    Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 05:36
Originally posted by poirot



2. The Ming helped Joeson during the Imjin Wars.  The Ming commander, Li Rusong, son of Li Chengliang, had Korean blood.  Despite some looting certain Ming troops in Korea, the official stance was of a unified front of Ming and Joeson.


 Wow, I didn't know Li Rusong had Korean blood and also he was a son of Li Chengliang. 
 
 Now that's gotta be the same Li Chengliang who abandoned Nurhaci's father Taksi and grandfather Giocangga because he thought they mutinied against his command to support Nikan Wailan and instead helped Atai who was their relative, right?  And when they lost Nikan Wailan killed both of them.
 
Also when they say Nurhaci was the Ming's hostage when he was young, is that mean he was kept under Li Chengliang himself or kept in Beijing?
 
Also did Nurhaci ever try to take revenge on Li Chengliang or Li Rusong for his father, grandfather and uncle's death?  That would make sense.
 
What a feud between two families for three generations, hah!
 
Wiki says Li Chengliang had nine sons and five became full generals and the other four became accompanying generals for Ming.  One of them was Li Rusong's younger brother Li Rubai who also fought in Imjin War and then fought Nurhaci but lost in Sarhu and killed himself.
 
So with that information, it would be very hard to imagine that Nurhaci and Li brothers fought in the same side during the Imjin war.
 
Also wiki says Li Chengliang was a Korean descent but Li Rusong was a Korean and Jurchen descent.  Maybe Li chengliang married a Jurchen woman? 


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 14-Jun-2008 at 05:53
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 05:22
EDIT,  I accidently double posted this during editing but I can't delete it so I'm just clearing this one.  Just look at the one below.  I know I'm an idiot.  
 


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 14-Jun-2008 at 06:32
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Posts: 1838 		  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 06:14
You are correct my friend, the Joeson dynasty had relatively favorable relations with the Ming.  Joeson later defected to the Qing because it had no choice, not because of voluntary action as a result of cultural or linguistic ties (like how the Khitan defected to the Mongols).

1. Ming and Joeson were close culturally, therefore I fail to understand why some Korean nationalists would associate Joeson with the Manchu.  Perhaps similar to how some Chinese nationalists would associate the PRC with Chinnghis Khan.

The Joeson probably looked down upon the Manchu as "barbarians".  During Ming times, Joeson, and perhaps Annam, were considered the "civilized" vassals.

2. The Ming helped Joeson during the Imjin Wars.  The Ming commander, Li Rusong, son of Li Chengliang, had Korean blood.  Despite some looting certain Ming troops in Korea, the official stance was of a unified front of Ming and Joeson.

3. Joeson profited from its vassalage to the Ming.  A condescending Ming emperor always provided more gifts to his vassals than the tributes he received.

If I remember correctly, the Joeson king even secretly organized an expansion of palace troops in an attempt to resist the Manchus.
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2008 at 05:50
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 

BTW, did Manchu participate in Imjin war? I actually encountered 2 opposite sources one which said they did and another that they didn't.

 

I've never heard that before but that doesn't say much.  So I did any lazy person with little knowledge would do, I looked up Wiki.  Wiki listed Jianzhou Jurchens as belligerents fighting on Joseon and Ming side against Hideyoshi.  But I couldn't find when, where or how many soldiers.
 
So I looked up Jianzhou Jurchens since I'm not familiar with different tribal factions of the Jurchens.  And I found out Jianzhou Jurchens were where Nurhaci was from?  Wiki says young Nurhaci was a hostage to Ming.  And Nurhaci's grandfather Giocangga, chief of the Beiles of the Sixes, was supposed to help Ming against another Jurchen chieftain Atai but he choose to help Atai against Nikan Wailan.  Under Giocangga article, Wiki says Atai was actually Nurhaci 's uncle.  But this article on Jianzhou Jurchens says Atai was Wang Gao's son.  Does that make Giocangga and Wang Gao brothers or cousins?  I'm getting confused now.  Anyway Atai lost and Ming abandoned Giocangga and Taksi(father of Nurhaci) and they got killed by Nikan Wailan.
 
 
 
------(from Wiki)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was at this junction that Nurhaci, son of Taksi, appeared on the scene. Taking control of his grandfather's Suksuhu River tribe, he drove Nikan Wailan from the lands of the Jianzhou Jurchens. In 1588 he subjected the Wanggiya tribe and received the submission of the Donggo tribe. The unification of the Jianzhou Jurchens provided the basis for Nurhaci to expand his power throughout southern and central Manchuria, and to create a true Manchu state. The very name Manchu (Jurchen: manju) was perhaps an old term for the Jianzhou Jurchens.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 
So by 1588, Nurhaci was in power, unifying and expanding Jianzhou Jurchens.   I don't know exactly when Nurhaci was done unifying all the Jurchens and started to fight against Ming, but he reigned as Khan 1616 and found Later Jin.  Wiki dates last year of Ming as 1644. 
 
I guess what interests me here is the timeline.   If the Manchus(Jianzhou Jurchens) fought with Ming and Joseon in Imjin War, it had to be under the leadership of the Nurhaci himself since the war was between 1592-1598.  Would it be possible that Nurhaci was making deals with Ming to help out in the Imjin war and Ming was letting him fight against other Jurchen tribes?  Wouldn't that be the only way Ming and the Manchus could have fought together in same side during the Imjin War.  But they might not have fought side to side.  They could have fought in different battles. 
 
I'm not sure how far the Japanese troops went up northward but I know one of the main division reached least up to Hamheung city, which is still quite south of the border still but there could have been battles near the border.  Maybe Manchus could have been defending the peripheries of their expanding territory, not necessarily fighting with or for Ming and Joseon.  I somehow think that is the most probable scenario. I mean all this is just from one evening worth of Wiki research.  I'm not claiming anything.  I just trying to learn. 
 
Anyway, I also read something about Imjin War being one of the events that caused the Fall of Ming and the Rise of Qing.  What is the contemporary Chinese view on that?  Did Imjin War affected Ming that much?  Here is what Wiki says;
 
-------(from Wiki)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition to the human losses, Korea suffered tremendous cultural, economic, and infrastructural damage, including a large reduction in the amount of arable land,[8] destruction and confiscation of significant artworks, artifacts, and historical documents, and abductions of artisans and technicians.[11] The heavy financial burden placed on China by the war adversely affected its military capabilities and contributed to the fall of the Ming Dynasty and the rise of the Qing Dynasty.[12] However, the sinocentric tributary system that Ming had defended was restored by Qing, and the normal trade relations between Korea and Japan later continued.[13]  
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
It would be very ironic if indeed Nurhaci fought with/for Ming and Joseon in Imjin War.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 15:21

Yes, I think Chinese historical perspective is totally similar in this regard.

BTW, did Manchu participate in Imjin war? I actually encountered 2 opposite sources one which said they did and another that they didn't.

 
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 07:39
Originally posted by poirot

Thank you jiangwei!

As to the origins of Qing, it is actually quite simple.

Ming = bright (element of fire)
Qing = clear (element of water)

Water extinguishes fire.  Hence why the Manchus renamed their empire from Jin to Qing.

The origin of Jin is also simple:

Liao = Iron
Jin = Gold

Gold >  Iron   Smile

P.S. The Joeson dynasty kept using the calendar of the last Ming emperor well after the demise of the last Ming resistance in Yunan.  It is doubtful that the Joeson had "love" for the Manchus.

 
The Joseon dynasty also set itself to be a Confucius court in opposition to the Goryeo court which was overran by some corrupt Buddhist monks at times.  I think the Joseon court looked up the Ming court as precedential Confucius court, more like the Eastern Philosopher King way. 
 
In fact the Joseon's founder Taejo Yi Seong Gye was the general who was given 70.000 troop by Goryeo court to fight the Ming in the NW(of Korea) border but he turn the troop around and came back to Kaesung to topple the Goryeo dynasty and found the new dynasty.  I mean the guy wanted to be a king foremost, obviously.  But also this was the general who would rather topple his own king than fight Ming. 
 
Also in Imjin War, Ming helped Joseon.  That's well known. 
 
During Ming vs Qing though, Joseon has pledged to fight in Mings side but they already knew Ming would lose so the king ordered the general to surrender to Qing if the defeat was inevitable to serve the diplomatic duty and secure the future relationship with the new power same time as far as I know. 
 
Anyway my general understanding is that Joseon was loyal to Ming because they looked up to them but they were loyal to Qing because they had no other choice.  Is the Chinese historical perspective similar to this? 
 
PS.  Poirot, it's cool that how you compared Ming and Qing with the elements each letter represent.  I guess I could have figured that out myself since I know what they mean but never connected it that way. 
 
Hope to see you around more, please! 


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 12-Jun-2008 at 07:55
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Posts: 1838 		  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 06:30
Thank you jiangwei!

As to the origins of Qing, it is actually quite simple.

Ming = bright (element of fire)
Qing = clear (element of water)

Water extinguishes fire.  Hence why the Manchus renamed their empire from Jin to Qing.

The origin of Jin is also simple:

Liao = Iron
Jin = Gold

Gold >  Iron   Smile

P.S. The Joeson dynasty kept using the calendar of the last Ming emperor well after the demise of the last Ming resistance in Yunan.  It is doubtful that the Joeson had "love" for the Manchus.
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Posts: 360 		  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:03
Seige Tower,
 
Agree, those debates were very good.  However, some take disagreement very personally.  Some are very passionate (to a fault) about their positions.  I think that may be the reason why some are not with us.
 
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Posts: 360 		  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 17:51
Poirot,
 
Good to hear that you are still around!
 
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Posts: 1838 		  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 23:08
Just taking a lazzee-faireeeee hands off approach :)
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I am here
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Posts: 580 		  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2008 at 00:52
Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Originally posted by Siege Tower

Gubook Janggoon? wasn't that the hardline Korean nationalist moderator?
I don't know if he was a hardline nationalist or not.  That's more subjective opinion and I guess I'm biased because he was Korean.  But I tell you what, I learned a lot from the battles Gubook Janggoon and The Charioteer used to have, especially on Koguryeo and NE project.  I think Gubook Janggoon did get tired and became little sensitive toward the end.  Perhaps one of the reasons he's not around anymore.  But I think he did a lot of work for the East Asia subforum and I don't remember him abusing his mod power too much.  I guess I just miss learning from great debates in the East Asia forum because I am not capable of creating or participating in one myself.  I always appreciate when you guys do though.  Thanks.


Yea, those were the good time. it just seems everyone's gone all the sudden, all the Chinese members went to the Chinese history forum and the Korean members got their own forums too. Flyzone had this mental breakdown(according to one of the Mod, whose name shall remain confidential), and poirot is nowhere to be seen these days.
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 08:05
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Gubook Janggoon? wasn't that the hardline Korean nationalist moderator?
I don't know if he was a hardline nationalist or not.  That's more subjective opinion and I guess I'm biased because he was Korean.  But I tell you what, I learned a lot from the battles Gubook Janggoon and The Charioteer used to have, especially on Koguryeo and NE project.  I think Gubook Janggoon did get tired and became little sensitive toward the end.  Perhaps one of the reasons he's not around anymore.  But I think he did a lot of work for the East Asia subforum and I don't remember him abusing his mod power too much.  I guess I just miss learning from great debates in the East Asia forum because I am not capable of creating or participating in one myself.  I always appreciate when you guys do though.  Thanks.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 07:12
There in fact were some interesting Korean-Tungusic relations in Bohai
 
But definetely it's not enough to build on this the theories AKA Chung-Korean dynasty etc.
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I don't know any cultural, anthropic, or genetic relation between Tungusic and Silla. They had the same ancestor dozens thousands years ago, far before the national identifications formed.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2008 at 06:23

He was a good mod.
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Gubook Janggoon? wasn't that the hardline korean nationalist moderator?

Edited by Siege Tower - 04-Jun-2008 at 06:07
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Originally posted by King Kang of Mu

Where is Gubook Janggoon these days?
Should in 2nd or 3rd year in an Arts college, somewhere in Boston, IIRC.
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Posts: 580 		  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 23:04
I think Chiwoo didn't do research before posting.  "Qing" is pronounced as "Ch'ing" in mandarin, I think any one who knows a bit about linguistics would know that Qing is pinyin romanization while Ching is wade-gile and yale romanization.  Qing and Ching are different English romanization of the same sound and character.

Oh, no, Chiwoo was talking about the Manchu pronounciation, Ch'ing and Qing may sound exactly the same in English, but there is a difference between the two in chinese pronounciations. I don t personally speak Manchu Language or talk in Manchu accent, but i noticed when my great-grandfather(who speaks Manchu Language) talks about Qing dynasty, he sounded more like Ching, which all the mandarin speakers should know, the Ch- in Ching is retroflex consonant as oppose to Q- in Qing which is alvelo-palatal consonant
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 20:36
Wow, Chiwoo created whole new subforum almost single handedly.  Perhaps the greatestWink impact made by a newcomer in quit some time?  Why do we, Koreans have to stick out like that wherever we go?  It can be a good thing or a bad thing, but I see to many times with hotheadedness.  I know many Koreans with cool calm collective Confucius scholastic temperments though.  Just not in this forum, I guess.  Where is Gubook Janggoon these days?    
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