QuoteReplyTopic: Arabs before islam Posted: 04-Oct-2006 at 01:18
Originally posted by yazzmode621
Originally posted by someone
I think also there is no such thing with pure aryan. I believe Arya was a land from Iran to India to tadjikistan...(wich covered all central asia) around 10 thousand years before christ.
ok where did that come from? lol
They didn't come from anywhere. They were natives of this place. And Arabia before Muhammad followed their religion.
it is true that Allah means god (generally), but you are wrong denying that in Mecca was a separate preislamic god called "allah" or "rabb" (this general term too, individualizing here a certain local god).
If you have many dieties that all gods=rabbs=Elahs, and you decided to call one of them just "the god", That does not prove that "the god" is a pre-islamic diety. This is just an issue of word usage. As simple as this.
Originally posted by Corlanx
in support of the fact that he was called allah, is the name "Abdallah" that many preislamic arabs had; it is hard to imagine, that when conceiving this name one thought to a general god . . .
I'm not sure what evidance are you using here. Till now you have the name Abdullah, but not Abdul El Lat. Both existed during the pre-Islamic era. One is not allowed by Muslims (Abdul El Lat) because it is a pagan diety, whereas (Abdullah) is allowed because it is a general name of God simply.
Originally posted by Corlanx
Thanks, but that is in no way showing there was not a certain god called Allah as rabb of kabba. In fact, Allah himself was called in the first surah of Koran that Muhammad received, with the term "rabb", and not Allah!!!
That is a linguistic issue. If you need to gain more insight in understanding this issue, you need to learn more Arabic. It is linguistically and grammatically wrong to say for the God of Ka'ba in Arabic "Allah Al Ka'bah". You can say only "Rabb Al Ka'bah" or "Elah Al Ka'ba". As you should know by now, Elah= God, Rabb= Owner or Lord. It is better to say Lord of Ka'bah than God of Ka'bah. Especially that the Ka'bah is viewed a symbol of God house on earth. However, Rabb Al Ka'bah exist, and Bayt Allah too exist in Quran. Bayt=House in Arabic (Beth in Hebrew). It is known that the Ka'bah is the house too. So, God refering back to his house saying the God of this house, or Ka'bah. It is all lingustic usage. I'm not sure where are you going with this if you cannot read what you are refering too in the Quran.
Originally posted by Corlanx
A quote from a french biography: En 616, une ligue de tous les clans de La Mecque se forme pour mettre en quarantaine le clan des Hachmites et on en dresse acte crit. ...
Sorry, I cannot read french. I'm sure you can research it in English.
I Just hope he is not like one of those who participated in translating "Nahnu" in the Quran to "We" when God is speaking, and declared he found the trinity key in the Quran!
Edited by ok ge - 09-Aug-2006 at 19:14
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
I am right: what Im stating here can simply be found in any biography of the prophet. And the fact that Muhammad doesnt accept any other religion has, of course, its explanation: he tried to be friendly with the jews in Mecca, but they were at least unfriendly with him.
Everybody has his own assumptions. What is for sure is that, your assumption to "probably he" or "he might" does not prove anything. Actions are louder than words. Words of the Quran the prophet uttered states clearly (Chapter 2, verse 256) "There is no compulsion in religion" Action of the prophet: I already mentioned various non-Muslim communities that existed during the time of prophet and continued to exist despite his death. Therefore, no proof you have that the Prophet Muhammed has decided a general policy that no other religion is permitted. Especially that he convyed a different messege and acted different to what you claim.
Originally posted by Corlanx
We have to ponder why, and probably it is not very difficult: it seems probable that Muhammad himself introduced the practice of allowing conquered people to keep their religion in surrendering to his armies w/o fight. Another explanation could be that Yemen did fall in 630, when he was weakened by illness and age.
So now you are contradicting yourself. You claim previously that Prophet Muhammed has instituted not accepting any religion, then you declare here that "it seems probable that Muhammad himself introduced the pratice of allowing conquered people to keep their religion in surrendering to his armies w/o fight". Yemen falling in 630 is an explaination of what? His armies were capable of exiling those who did not convert to Islam. Neither anyone attempted so for the Jews of Yemen after it became part of the prophet's state.
Originally posted by Corlanx
Of course it is not, and I wasnt intending into making it one: mirra declared that in Mecca Muhammad doesnt force anyone, and I hinted simply to this error.
Originally posted by Corlanx
I explained that the destruction of idols was one of many hints showing Muhammad doesnt allow anymore other religion there, except his islam. The execution of some of his foes there, that in contrast with others not converted themselves to islam before his victorious arrival, is an example of what he was meaning.
Actually so far, your only proof against her is that he destroyed the idols as a hint of not accepting other than Islam in Mecca and thus, forcing all to be Muslims. However, you need a stronger evidance that contradict the common biography of the prophet. First, you need to explain, if he was forcing all to be Muslims, how comes he allowed amnesty to Meccans? Second, you need to explain too that why didn't all the Meccans became Muslim right away after the conquest? Third, you need to prove a massacre or an exile to those who didn't convert, that will show a switch of his policies. In fact, all even those who prosecuted him and his followers were forgiven except a small number that were convected of capital crimes to convert Muslims before their exile out of Mecca. fourth, you need to show us that if he intended to capture Mecca and force all to be Muslim convert, why does he after the Meccans ratified the peace truce, and were given a second chance of re-instituting the truce back with three options, they refused it and declared it a clash? You have to explain why would he give them a second chance if he is so eager to convert them?
All of my points are explained in the following Wikipedia paragraph:
The truce of Hudaybiyya had been in force since two years. [26][27]. The tribe of Khuz'aah was in friendly relationship with Muhammad, while on the other hand their enemies, Banu Bakr had aliance with Meccans.[26][28] A clan of Bakr made a night raid against Khuz'aah, killing few of them [26][28]. Meccans helped their allies Banu Bakr with weapons and according to some sources few Meccans also took part in the fighting [26]. After the fighting Muhammad offered Meccans following three conditions[29].
The Meccans were to pay blood-money for those slain among Khuza'ah tribe. Or
They should have nothing to do with Banu Bakr. Or
They should declare the truce of Hudaybiyya null.
The Meccan replied that they would accept only the third condition[29]. However, soon they realized their mistake and sent Abu Safyan to renew the Hudaybiyya treaty, but now his request was declined by Muhammad. Muhammad began to prepare for a campaign. [30].
In 630, Muhammad marched on Mecca with an enormous force, said to number more than ten thousand men. After some scattered skirmishes, in which only twenty-four Meccans were killed,[reference needed] the Muslims seized Mecca. Muhammad promised a general amnesty to all but a few of the Meccans. Most Meccans converted to Islam, and Muhammad destroyed the idols in the Kaaba. Henceforth the pilgrimage would be a Muslim pilgrimage and the shrine a Muslim shrine.
Source:.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
Please support your claim with clear evidance, no assumptions or hints.
Originally posted by Corlanx
Im not denying the fact that christians were intolerant and in fact more intolerant than muslims of their time. And fact is that Muhammad himself is ambiguous in did and word: by his death, he told his friends that no other religion should be permitted in Arabia, but other time he was very tolerant with those conquered. That is religion. All.
I'm not here to debate the tolerance of Christianity. According to you, Muhammed said no other religion is permitted in Arabia. No religion, at all. That is in severe contradiction of reality. So, why did they leave many non-Muslims to exist after his death? I repeat again one example, why do we have communities of Yemeni Jews for the last 1400 years? Was the prophet request (according to you) hard to deliver? I dont think so.
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
Mira, what you're stating here can't be supported by historical evidence: Muhammad faught wars with meccans and many of their leaders converted just before the fall of the city to Muhammad's army or immediately after that. If some of them practiced his religion after that, it is in his intimity, w/o that community knowing it . . . Actually once Muhammad arrived in Mecca, he destroyed the idols of kabba, so how to practice pagan rits w/o some material idol, and what more direct gesture from Muhammad hinting in not acceptance of any other religion there, than this one?
If we assume you are right that Muhammad is not accepting any other religion.
I am right: what Im stating here can simply be found in any biography of the prophet. And the fact that Muhammad doesnt accept any other religion has, of course, its explanation: he tried to be friendly with the jews inMecca, but they were at least unfriendly with him.
then we should ponder why many communities continued to practice their religion during the time of Muhammed and after Muhammed? Yemen came into Islam before the fall of Mecca. However, the Jews of Yemen were allowed to continue practicing Judaism even till now after 1400 years, there are still many Yemeni Jews. Christian of Najran, Jewish tribes around Madinah (that did not participated in the fight against Muhammed) and many more were not forcefully converted or kicked during the era of Muhammed.
We have to ponder why, and probably it is not very difficult: it seems probable that Muhammad himself introduced the practice of allowing conquered people to keep their religion in surrendering to his armies w/o fight. Another explanation could be that Yemen did fall in 630, when he was weakened by illness and age.
The historical fact that Muhammed destroyed the pagan symbols over the Ka'bah is not a hint that ever person in conquested Arabia should be a Muslim forcefully, because of the examples I gave earlier of other non-Muslim communities continuing to exist in Arabia after Muhammed conquest.
Of course it is not, and I wasnt intending into making it one: mirra declared that in Mecca Muhammad doesnt force anyone, and I hinted simply to this error.
It is rather a continuation of the story that even pagan Meccans believed. Pagan Meccans knew Ka'ba was built before those pagans god were placed. Some even attributed it to Ebraham the prophet, others to Adam. Whatever the case is, the fact that Muhammed decided that the Ka'ba must be cleansed of all dieties and shall be return back to it is old status is a disputable issue, but never a proof of forcing Islam.
I explained that the destruction of idols was one of many hints showing Muhammad doesnt allow anymore other religion there, except his islam. The execution of some of his foes there, that in contrast with others not converted themselves to islam before his victorious arrival, is an example of what he was meaning.
A tradition kept by most just Muslim rulers. That is why there are Christians who continued to exist in Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan....etc and Jews all over despite over a 1000 year of Muslim rule and culture. Wasn't it easy to force them to convert or exile? Im sure it was. Spain tried it in 1492 fall of Granada. Less than a 125 year, and no Muslim can be traced anymore in Spain by 1611 AD.
Im not denying the fact that christians were intolerant and in fact more intolerant than muslims of their time. And fact is that Muhammad himself is ambiguous in did and word: by his death, he told his friends that no other religion should be permitted in Arabia, but other time he was very tolerant with those conquered. That is religion. All.
Reread my message, and you will find there the necessary prudence in statements about this historical and religious character.
Originally posted by Corlanx - The fourth is too mentioned in Koran: Allah. The master of female deities mentioned above (the first three) was Allah, the master ("rabb") of the house (Bayt ilah). Muhammads father, even in pre-islamic, pagan times, had the name Abdallah, because even in pre-islamic times, the arabs cherrished this god of Kabba I mentioned, "the master" (rabb) of the stone, that reigned over the three female deities
Check again your resources. Allah means simply the god. It is not a seperate pre-Islamic god.
It is true that Allah means god (generally), but you are wrong denying that in Mecca was a separate preislamic god called "allah" or "rabb" (this general term too, individualizing here a certain local god).
"Rabb" is the master or the lord. Again, not a seperate god. You can hear in Arabic literature "The Rabb of the sheeps" the lord or owner of the sheeps.
Of course, in any language lord mean the Lord and . . . the lord. Really not necessary to stress that.
Also, even Christian Arabs use the word "Rabb" to identify the God. Al-lat, Al- Uzza, Manah...and all hundred of gods are all "rabbs" or again Gods.Allah is not different
.
Here I agree with you, or you are agreeing with me. The problem for you is that there was a "rabb" of kabba and of these female gods, and no historical argument can disprove that he was called allah; in support of the fact that he was called allah, is the name "Abdallah" that many preislamic arabs had; it is hard to imagine, that when conceiving this name one thought to a general god . . .
It is derived from the combination of Al-Elah or "the God".One of the gods "Al-Lat" is actually derived from El Elahat or the goddess. Simply, Elah is also god. More information are found here: Etymology Most linguists believe that the term Allāh is derived from a contraction of the Arabic words al (the) and ilāh (deity, masculine form) - al-ilāh meaning "the god". Also, one of the main pagan goddesses of pre-Islamic Arabia, Allāt (al + ʾilāh + at, or 'the goddess'), is cited as being etymologically (though not synchronically) the feminine linguistic counterpart to the grammatically masculine Allāh. If so, the word Allāh is an abbreviated title, meaning 'the deity', rather than a name. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah
Thanks, but that is in no way showing there was not a certain god called Allah as rabb of kabba. In fact, Allah himself was called in the first surah of Koran that Muhammad received, with the term "rabb", and not Allah!!! A quote from a french biography:
[...] En 616, une ligue de tous les clans de La Mecque se forme pour mettre en quarantaine le clan des Hachmites et on en dresse acte crit.Concernant cet crit qui fut suspendu la porte de la Kaaba, prescrivant de s'abstenir de relations avec tous les Hachmites, on aurait inscrit en tte de l'acte : En ton nom, Dieu (Allah). La tradition musulmane ne voit rien d'anormal ce que les Quraychites, prsents comme paens, criventAu nom d'Allah ,pas plus qu'elle ne trouve trange que le pre de Mahomet ait pour prnom Abdallah (esclave de Dieu). Or le mot Allah est totalement absent du Coran dans les premires rvlations (17).Celles-ci ordonnent d'adorer le Seigneur (rabb) de la maison (bayt), sans lui adjoindre des associs.Par associs il faut entendre ces puissances surnaturelles femelles, dont les Mecquois recherchaient la protection (18).Le dieu coranique au dbut de la Rvlation (19), est sans nul doute un dieu foncirement tribal.C'est une mise en quarantaine tribale qui est organise contre le clan des Hachmites en 616.Seul Ab Lahab, un oncle de Mahomet, se spare de son clan et se range dans le parti ennemi. [...]
Mira, what you're stating here can't be supported by historical evidence: Muhammad faught wars with meccans and many of their leaders converted just before the fall of the city to Muhammad's army or immediately after that. If some of them practiced his religion after that, it is in his intimity, w/o that community knowing it . . . Actually once Muhammad arrived in Mecca, he destroyed the idols of kabba, so how to practice pagan rits w/o some material idol, and what more direct gesture from Muhammad hinting in not acceptance of any other religion there, than this one?
If we assume you are right that Muhammad is not accepting any other religion, then we should ponder why many communities continued to practice their religion during the time of Muhammed and after Muhammed? Yemen came into Islam before the fall of Mecca. However, the Jews of Yemen were allowed to continue practicing Judaism even till now after 1400 years, there are still many Yemeni Jews. Christian of Najran, Jewish tribes around Madinah (that did not participated in the fight against Muhammed) and many more were not forcefully converted or kicked during the era of Muhammed. The historical fact that Muhammed destroyed the pagan symbols over the Ka'bah is not a hint that ever person in conquested Arabia should be a Muslim forcefully, because of the examples I gave earlier of other non-Muslim communities continuing to exist in Arabia after Muhammed conquest. It is rather a continuation of the story that even pagan Meccans believed. Pagan Meccans knew Ka'ba was built before those pagans god were placed. Some even attributed it to Ebraham the prophet, others to Adam. Whatever the case is, the fact that Muhammed decided that the Ka'ba must be cleansed of all dieties and shall be return back to it is old status is a disputable issue, but never a proof of forcing Islam. A tradition kept by most just Muslim rulers. That is why there are Christians who continued to exist in Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan....etc and Jews all over despite over a 1000 year of Muslim rule and culture. Wasn't it easy to force them to convert or exile? Im sure it was. Spain tried it in 1492 fall of Granada. Less than a 125 year, and no Muslim can be traced anymore in Spain by 1611 AD.
Originally posted by Corlanx
The fourth is too mentioned in Koran : Allah. The master of female deities mentioned above (the first three) was Allah, the master ("rabb") of the house (Bayt ilah). Muhammads father, even in pre-islamic, pagan times, had the name Abdallah, because even in pre-islamic times, the arabs cherrished this god of Kabba I mentioned, "the master" (rabb) of the stone, that reigned over the three female deities.
Check again your resources. Allah means simply the god. It is not a seperate pre-Islamic god. "Rabb" is the master or the lord. Again, not a seperate god. You can hear in Arabic literature "The Rabb of the sheeps" the lord or owner of the sheeps. Also, even Christian Arabs use the word "Rabb" to identify the God. Al-lat, Al- Uzza, Manah...and all hundred of gods are all "rabbs" or again Gods. Allah is not different. It is derived from the combination of Al-Elah or "the God". One of the gods "Al-Lat" is actually derived from El Elahat or the goddess. Simply, Elah is also god. More information are found here:
Etymology
Most linguists believe that the term Allāh (Arabic: ألله) is derived from a contraction of the Arabic words al (the) and ʾilāh (deity, masculine form) - al-ilāh meaning "the god". Also, one of the main pagan goddesses of pre-Islamic Arabia, Allāt (al + ʾilāh + at, or 'the goddess'), is cited as being etymologically (though not synchronically) the feminine linguistic counterpart to the grammatically masculine Allāh. If so, the word Allāh is an abbreviated title, meaning 'the deity', rather than a name.
These are their 4 famous gods: AlLat, Manat, Uzza, Hubal as I remember their name mentioned in Quran
Three out of four were mentioned in the Qur'an, only.
The fourth is too mentioned in Koran: Allah.
The master of female deities mentioned above (the first three) was Allah, the master ("rabb") of the house (Bayt ilah).Muhammads father, even in pre-islamic, pagan times, had the name Abdallah, because even in pre-islamic times, the arabs cherrished this god of Kabba I mentioned, "the master" (rabb) of the stone, that reigned over the three female deities.
maybe they were/are Traditionalist. Mohammad couldn't convert them to Islam until captured the Mecca by mighty Military.
Mohammed must have been some wizard to have done that all on his own, eh? The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon Him) didn't force anyone in Mecca into conversion. Evidently, some of them continued to practice their religions, even after Islam had prevailed.
Mira, what you're stating here can't be supported by historical evidence: Muhammad faught wars with meccans and many of their leaders converted just before the fall of the city to Muhammad's army or immediately after that. If some of them practiced his religion after that, it is in his intimity, w/o that community knowing it . . . Actually once Muhammad arrived in Mecca, he destroyed the idols of kabba, so how to practice pagan rits w/o some material idol, and what more direct gesture from Muhammad hinting in not acceptance of any other religion there, than this one?
I have read that, before Islam, the Arab lands were famous in a very different light, in a negative one to be precise. They used attack on the caravans passing the deserts, known for statue and fire worshipping, killing burrying their children in the sand and most of the missorder which was known around.
Many believe, that Allah sent the Holy prophet Muhammad to Arabia especially for that, to bring order into one the most ashamed places by him! Especially, taking into account the fact that the Holy Kaaba was located there and was surrounded by all those stone and fire worshipers!
Now, after the Holy prophet Muhammad, Arabia has been blessed and it gave arise to the great Khaliphat (which greatly affected us - Uzbeks also), also now it has all the oil, the wealth just keeps coming out underneath them! you lucky guys!!
"Power is in fairness...!" - Amir Temur (1336-1405)
I think also there is no such thing with pure aryan. I believe Arya was a land from Iran to India to tadjikistan...(wich covered all central asia) around 10 thousand years before christ.
Yes, according to the Avesta it was called 'Airyanem Vaejah' I know its off-topic so il link u to a wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airyanem_Vaejah
' How shall a man escape from that which is written; How shall he flee from his destiny? ' Ferdowsi
then it seems like the source you are using replaced the term Al Aarebah with Al Muta'arribah.
if not then what tribes where put under al arab ala'arribah?
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about the lizard eating thing, this was introduced by the Abyssinians, there is a Hadith when the Abyssinians came to Madina , they started eating lizards and when they presented it to the prophet he refused to eat it and the companions asked him if its "haram" forbidden to eat lizard, he told then no its not Haram but he is disgusted from it .
that means this lizard eating thing came to arabia through africa.
will durant writes that the arab population in syrain, iran, iraq, etc... only reached about 500,000 in 644 AD, after the islamic invasions.
this means that the arab population before islam had to be significantly lower.
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
I don't think that person meant honor killings. But way before when the child is born.
Society was tough, and it was prefered to have male offspring to support the family- in dire circumstances, where the family can't raise a daughter, so they were desposed of when they were born. Almost like the case with the chinese now, they're aborting the daughter fetus' because a daughter can not provide for the family like a male can, except the "disposing" was done after the fetus is born.
The problem with the idea of female infanticide in the context of ancient Arab societies was that the environment of the desert was so harsh, that such a practice would have destroyed tribes. On the other hand, a numerically superior ratio of females to males naturally encouraged polygamy which was practiced in ancient Arab societies and even into Islamic societies into the 20th century.
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