Sparta: the Nazis of the ancient world

Originally posted by Cryptic Originally posted by Nick1986 The Japanese have always had a reputation for savage cruelty and is probably the reason why they embraced fascist ideas before the war. Reputation is far different than fact.    Japanese treatment of Russian POWS and Russian civlians during the Russo Japanese war was exemplary and applauded by western observers. Likewise, no atrocities were commited against German troops or civilians when the Japanese (nominal member of the allies) siezed their colonial possessions in the Pacific.   The traditional Bushido code demanded that mercy be given to prisoners and non combatants.  The Bushido code was not warped into a "no prisoners" ideaology until the 1930s. Originally posted by Nick1986 Was ancient Sparta the first fascist state? ....Unlike the Nazis, however, homosexuality was not only tolerated but encouraged: women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors Fascism and Nazism are not identical ideaologies.  For example, Spanish and Italian fascism were definetly right wing, but they never developed the rascist or anti-semitic beliefs that the Nazis did.  Sparta may well have been "fascist", but never "nazi".    Sparta was a strange place.  Some Spartan practices such as a near classless society (among Spartans), mandatory communal dining for boys, and discouraging people from obtaining wealth beyond a certain level can be described as "maoist". Originally posted by Nick1986 women seem to have served as baby-making factories to provide the next generation of warriors Not at all.  Women were held in high regard. For example, a woman who died in child birth was given the same honors as a man who died in combat.

In small skirmishes where the Japanese relied on international goodwill it was only natural they followed the rules of war. But during the 1930s (when they realised the allies were becoming an obstacle) they reverted to their earlier savagery. Like the samurai they beheaded and tortured prisoners whom they deemed dishonorable, even testing their swords on them

The Spartans' communal living draws parallels to the prewar German volkish movements and Hitler Youth: males camping together to share the hardship and adventure. Unlike Maoism which sought to create a working class and modernise China, Spartan fascism was geared towards war and enslavement

The Nazis also held good mothers in high regard. The best baby-makers were rewarded as they were producing the next generation of warriors. Having children was seen as a patriotic duty rather than a choice: many Spartans found it difficult to get into bed with their wives and frequently dressed them up as boys

Originally posted by Nick1986 The Japanese have always had a reputation for savage cruelty and is probably the reason why they embraced fascist ideas before the war.

Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jul-2011 at 18:08

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis Not enough Nick ole pard.   The practice of infanticide is and was world wide.   Puberty rituals.. especially female....which can be quite physically and no doubt mentally brutal.. the same.   The Ancient Chinese 'bound feet well into the early 20th ce.   The Japanese proscribed and killed foreign efforts to inflitrate their very once closed society.   Many African, S. American and SW Pacific cultures have used various accoutrements which cause dis-formation of body parts for varying reasons.   Ritualistic Cannibalism as practiced by whomever where ever.   The Vikings and Scandinavian cultures and the Celts and the Indians and Central Americans practiced ritual murder and or immolation or both for certain events and ceremonies.   Certain Native American Indian cultures left the old out in the cold to perish to ensure adequate food supplies during winter.   None of these are necessarily fascist. Nor should they be compared as such... given the 19th-20th ce. defintion of a practice of a governmental ideaology.   But as the man said Nick...ya have a beautiful mind.

The Japanese have always had a reputation for savage cruelty and is probably the reason why they embraced fascist ideas before the war.
Mutilation, cannibalism and human sacrifice are barbaric but not fascist. Child abuse in itself isn't unusual, but the Spartans' motives make them fascist: desire to create a powerful militarised society with no room for the weak

It's also worth noting that exposing babies was a common practice in other Greek states, and that no doubt evidence of disability was a fairly common reason for infanticide. I suspect that what seemed really striking / shocking to other Greek observers about Spartan infanticide was that it was the state, not the parents, who got to decide whether or not a baby lived.

The Spartans also threw disabled babies off cliffs in the hope of creating a purer race. This sounds a lot like the Nazi theory of Eugenics

It's an interesting analogy, and there are other parallels. Sparta vaunted "Dorian supremacy" over other Greek ethnic groups like the Ionians, and the Laconian and Messenian Helots (Sparta's agricultural slave population) were perhaps the original "untermenschen". Hitler himself certainly perceived parallels. After Stalingrad, he lamented that his soldiers lacked the courage of the Spartan 300 under Leonidas, and he even sought to "prove" that the Spartans were of German descent by pointing to the similarities between the Spartan national dish (a rancid black broth made from pig's blood) and a traditional stew popular in Schleswig-Holstein!