Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
TranHungDao
Earl
Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 277
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Special Forces Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 01:21 |
Originally posted by miki015
Ok,I
admire to all that special units,but...during the "Merciful Angel",NATO
agression to my homeland SAS unit was crush down and eliminated by the
members of 63.Airborne brigade of Yugoslavian army...also
members of US Green Beretes was captured alive,the whole world could
seen that on BBC...So my vote goes to all boys from 63.Airborne that
gave their lives for our freedom...
|
The Green Berets are not the Navy SEALs. They're probably
more like the SAS. Green Berets can be "fat" or husky. I've
never seen a fat Navy SEAL. (I mean footage of them on the
various History Channel, Military Channel, National Geograhic, and Discovery Channel documentaries, as well as general news stories on CNN
and the like.) FYI, the SEALs literally train for 10-12 hour a
day--if memory serves me, whether they have a mission or not.
Any group, special forces or otherwise, if ambushed and overwhelmingly
outnumbered, can be defeated. Remember those 15 Brit sailors?
It's quite likely there are special forces just as good as the SEALs, but better--I seriously doubt it.
|
|
TranHungDao
Earl
Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 277
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 01:10 |
Originally posted by britopinion
i'm not sure what you mean exactly when you call British military efforts in the Falklands Campaign 'so so'.
For any force (and in particular a British force that had suffered
repeated cost cutting over the previous 10 years) to travel 8000 miles
and carry out a SUCCESSFUL naval, land and air operation in an
extremely harsh climate against a numerically superior enemy is an
'incredible' military achievement and not 'so so' in any way.
Perhaps you could clarify what you mean.
|
I'll clarify my statement with one of your own:
Originally posted by britopinion
For any force (and in particular a British force that had suffered
repeated cost cutting over the previous 10 years)
|
----------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Zagros
1991: Iraq's armed forces were nothing: crap morale; 60s
and 70s Russian weaponry with compramised Western assets; all of its
sensitive infrastructure's weakpoints known because those who attacked
constructed it; and it was just out of a huge costly 8 year war of
attrition.
|
Gen. Chuck Horner (4 star USAF) said that he personally knew some of
the Iraqi fighter pilots. He said they were pretty good.
The Iraqi republican guard were pretty good too.
But they were simply overwhelmed by American technology and tactics. They didn't have a chance.
Having said that, I wouldn't assume the Brits who did "so-so" in the
Falklands could take on the Iraqis who have a far larger force.
Remember that the Israeli military which is probably second only to the
US, if it is second to anyone, had big problems with Eygpt SAM's in one
of their wars. I don't think the Egytians were better than the
Iraqis. The Israelis are well trained and always combat
hardened. If you haven't noticed, they just got their tails
handed to them by Hezbollah's new guerilla tactics. The American
learning curve is steep, the Israelis despite their decades of
experience with the PLO and Hamas would do no better than how the US is
doing in Baghdad.
In case you haven't noticed, the Brits are currently in the Shia
section of Iraq. They are definitely not in the Sunni Triangle.
Originally posted by Zagros
2003: (even worse morale after over a decade's sanctions; the
army's top brass save for a few were paid off hence the Iraqi army
disbanding; the Us made sure Iraq had nothing which could threaten it
- don't you remember the short range cruise missiles that were
decommissioned literally weeks before the attacks at the UN's behest?
|
True, but US technology and familiarity with desert fighting was even
higher in 2003 than in 1991. Besides, those "short range cruise
missiles" didn't do much in 1991 either.
Originally posted by Zagros
Anyone with enough men and finance could have pulled off 2003 or 1991.
|
Easier said than done.
Originally posted by Zagros
And Chenya? Well Iraq right now is
a good comparison.
|
The Russians were initially beaten in Chechnya back in 1991. The
Chechens humiliated them. Chechen forces are very small in number.
Lastly, it was the Europeans who wanted so badly to deal with the
Balkan situation in the mid 1990's, but they knew without the US, they
simply did not have the planning/tactical know-how nor logistical
capability to do it without major costs in men and materials. It
was the US that did the job in Bosnia/Kosovo/Yugoslavia. It was
the US that kept the Russians on the sidelines.
No offence, but without the US in WWII, you'd be speaking Geman.
And the French and Germans would be speaking Russian, i.e. the Cold
War. FYI, I'm well familiar with Yankee imperialism and I
criticize it just as much as the next bloke, but this doesn't cloud my
judgement on their military prowess.
|
|
miki015
Immortal Guard
Joined: 31-Mar-2007
Location: Yugoslavia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 19:37 |
Ok,I
admire to all that special units,but...during the "Merciful Angel",NATO
agression to my homeland SAS unit was crush down and eliminated by the
members of 63.Airborne brigade of Yugoslavian army...also
members of US Green Beretes was captured alive,the whole world could
seen that on BBC...So my vote goes to all boys from 63.Airborne that
gave their lives for our freedom...
Edited by miki015 - 05-Jun-2007 at 19:57
|
Sa verom u Boga
za Kralja i Otadzbinu
Miki
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 17:24 |
1991: Iraq's armed forces were nothing: crap morale; 60s and 70s Russian weaponry with compramised Western assets; all of its sensitive infrastructure's weakpoints known because those who attacked constructed it; and it was just out of a huge costly 8 year war of attrition.
2003: (even worse morale after over a decade's sanctions; the army's top brass save for a few were paid off hence the Iraqi army disbanding; the Us made sure Iraq had nothing which could threaten it - don't you remember the short range cruise missiles that were decommissioned literally weeks before the attacks at the UN's behest?
Anyone with enough men and finance could have pulled off 2003 or 1991.
And Chenya? Well Iraq right now is
a good comparison.
|
|
britopinion
Immortal Guard
Joined: 06-Sep-2005
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 17:04 |
Originally posted by TranHungDao
The American military machinery is not going to lose to anyone. I don't think the Brits with their so-so performance in the Falklands is anywhere near American military science. |
Although i agree with the comment that the US military is not going to lose to anyone overall i'm not sure what you mean exactly when you call British military efforts in the Falklands Campaign 'so so'.
For any force (and in particular a British force that had suffered repeated cost cutting over the previous 10 years) to travel 8000 miles and carry out a SUCCESSFUL naval, land and air operation in an extremely harsh climate against a numerically superior enemy is an 'incredible' military achievement and not 'so so' in any way.
Perhaps you could clarify what you mean.
|
|
TranHungDao
Earl
Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 277
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 07:44 |
Originally posted by Christ-Knight
The Navy Seals have too much propaganda... They
have huge and awsome equipment, but as soldiers... they are nothing
special.... Notice that every force that are here in this poll
are known... the DAE are unknown... and they have the FIRST place in
special forces in the world, I can assure you all! the best forces are
DAE, Spetsnaz, French Legion, KSK, SAS, Belgium Commandos. Europe
rullezzzz |
French Foreign Legion?!? Please. Have you seen Bear Grylls' 4 part series Escape to the Legion (2005)?
It's really, really good. 12 blokes including Grylls who enter,
and 4 actually made it thru. But the thing is, these guys were
flabby old guys, with the key exception of a Grylls, a former S.
African soldier and a professional boxer. The S. African soldier
and the boxer left because of typical wear and tear injuries.
Grylls of course is a former British SAS.
The attrition rate for the Navy Seals wannabees is far higher, and they
are guys typically from the US Marines, Rangers and so on.
There's a 2002 multipart documentary on the Seals "BUDs" training which
is quite entertaining. If you see this documentary, understand
that it is merely the training it takes to get into the SEALS, not the
stuff they do when they are already in.
If you just casually compare the two documentaries, i.e. what the would
be recruits had to do to get into the US Navy SEALs and the French
Foreign Legion, it is clear the SEAL training was far more difficult,
far more demanding. On top of this, they had to endure in in cold
water conditions. The instructors, who are SEALs themselves, said
that SEAL training is designed to weed out the cowboys and wannabees,
and pushes human endurance to the just to the breaking point.
Why? Because what doesn't kill you will make you stronger.
And everyone has a breaking point, and there is no point in going that
far. The point is: SEAL training is designed to test human abilities, endurance, etc., to its maximum limit.
The American military machinery is not going to lose to anyone. I
don't think the Brits with their so-so performance in the Falklands is
anywhere near American military science. No one could have pulled
off the stunningly lopsided success of the 1991 and 2003 conventional,
as opposed to the grotesquely catistrophic occupation itself, Gulf War
victories. Look at the Russians in Chechnya!
Even in during the Vietnam War, there was a raid into N. Vietnam called
"Operation Ivory Coast", where the American commander forced his men to
undergo months after month of similated raids on a exact copy of the
Son Tay POW prison complex they had built. I can't recall the
number of times they practiced it, but it was hundreds of times.
You can read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivory_Coast
The point is the US special forces are extremely meticulous in their
training, science, etc. Tasks are repeatedly broken down,
analysed, reanalysed and analysed again. Then break the smaller
task into smaller tasks, etc., etc...
BTW, there's also a great documentary on the S. African commando police
unit. I can't recall their formal name... This group of
elite cops had an extremely grueling training regimen--for cops anyway,
but it would definitely match the French Foreign Legion.
Lastly, in " Escape to the Legion" there was an American guy,
little short guy suffering from a Napoleonic complex, who had served 5
years in the French Foreign Legion, then went on to serve 8 years in
the US airborne and then went back to the Legion. All US special
forces are tough, but US airborne is not in the same league as the
Green Berets, Delta Force, much less the SEALs.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-May-2007 at 11:44 |
Originally posted by DukeC
S&D is right, both the SEALs and SBS are trained to a greater level than other special forces. They have to be able to operate both on land and in the water. They are also in high demand as security "consultants" when they leave the service. |
Although the SBS might not have much longer. There is constant pressure from the government that they don't need specialist training or facilities. They can simply use the normal RM ones and maybe borrow of the parras as and when. A couple of years ago there was evan a proposal to move the training centre to a base without any access to water, not even a swimming pool.
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-May-2007 at 06:40 |
During the initial invasion of Afghanistan, the US requested and got special forces support from German and Norwegian special forces for their mountain warfare skills; New Zealand SAS as they are considered to have amongst the best trackers in the world; and Australian, British, Canadian and Danish special forces for their all round skills.
There are also special forces units that solely train as combat divers or hostage rescuers (such as police special units) and are excellent at those jobs but not combat troops.
If you look at modern western special forces, in particular
Australian SAS
British SAS and SBS
Canadian JTF-2
Danish Jaegerkorpset
Dutch KCT
French 13e RDP
German KSK
Israeli Sayeret Matkal, S-13 and the Duvdevan Unit
New Zealand SAS
Norwegian HJK
Singapore Special Operations Force
South Korean Special Warfare Command
Swedish SSG
US Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Recon
they are all very highly trained with very little between them.
The Americans have two advantages. Firstly, larger numbers, so conduct larger operations. And secondly more money to buy fancy equipment. I would not consider US special forces to be better than New Zealand SAS, but the New Zealanders have only about 50-100 troopers compared to several thousand US special forces, so it is unfair to compare them.
As for the Russians, their screw-ups during the Beslan crisis shows how poor they are now.
Edited by Chwyatt - 23-May-2007 at 06:44
|
|
Phoenician2112
Immortal Guard
Joined: 16-May-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 16-May-2007 at 23:58 |
The SAS are the finest special forces in the world becasue they have a wide range of speialties eg reconnasiance, raids, counter terriosm
They are best at reconnasiance because of the small units of 4 men which are all cross trained whth each others specialties, they are excellent at concealment, they have great dicipline and can adapt for many missions.
The SAS are kown for their daring raids. They proved they are a great assest for counter terroism (Irainian embassy). They are also very proficiant in the bodyguard business and train many details in the middle east, africa and some european nations.
They have one of the hardest selection courses (apart from a german mountainiring miltary unit which i can't recall the name of)
|
Si vis pacem para bellum
|
|
Christ-Knight
Knight
Joined: 09-Apr-2007
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 54
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 21:18 |
Originally posted by Laelius
Seal Team 6 has been reformed into DEVGRU, essentially a training and development group but its suspected they still maintain the same function. Look bud Im sorry if I was a little confrontational and although Im not trying to stir up the international pissing contest already going on in this thread. Anyways if you're going to make an assertion try to back it up with evidence, or at least provide more concrete reasoning, you know IF-THEN. As for Portugal's special operations unit capability it should be noted that Portugal doesn't have the sort of Defence needs as some of the larger nations on the list and consequently has a much smaller pool of trained military professionals to turn into Special Forces Recruits. Yet Portugal's Special Forces have repeatedly distinguished themselves, in it's Colonial Wars as well as more recently in places such as Afghanistan.
BTW did you think of including Grupo de Operaes Especiais, from what I've just read they train with the 22nd SAS and Delta Force and have participated in the evacuation of Portuguese citizens abroud. |
yes, you are right. We do not have the needs that US have. Not even close! But we still have lots of black ops on the ancient colonies in Africa, and no also...
The Grupo de Operaoes Especiais are from Police, like Swat. But they only can be there if they were from a special force in the past.
Our best units in colonial war were the Commandos. I'm about 100meters from the main gate of his old headquarters in this moment . They have a statment that is... "Quem faz do perigo seu pao, do sofrimento seu irmao e da morte sua companheira..." it means that Who does the danger his bread, the suffering his brother, and the death his loyal friend...
They were deactivated during 8 years, beacuse of the high rank of deaths during the course, but they are operating now, for example in Afeghanistan. They are like the "heavy infantry".
Our best units are : DAE (Detachment of Special Actions - Marines) and Operaoes Especiais (Army Special Forces). They have cover missions and they are specialized in counter guerilla, sabotage, and search and rescue operations.
They only can act under the direct order of President of Republic. No one can send them to anywhere. Not even the Defence Minister.
Commandos:
Anyone want to know more about Portuguese Special Forces? Be my guests...
|
|
pekau
Caliph
Atlantean Prophet
Joined: 08-Oct-2006
Location: Korea, South
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3335
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 20:31 |
SAS. If I had a choice, I would go for Delta Force...
|
Join us.
|
|
Laelius
Consul
Joined: 22-Oct-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 18:08 |
Seal Team 6 has been reformed into DEVGRU, essentially a training and development group but its suspected they still maintain the same function. Look bud Im sorry if I was a little confrontational and although Im not trying to stir up the international pissing contest already going on in this thread. Anyways if you're going to make an assertion try to back it up with evidence, or at least provide more concrete reasoning, you know IF-THEN. As for Portugal's special operations unit capability it should be noted that Portugal doesn't have the sort of Defence needs as some of the larger nations on the list and consequently has a much smaller pool of trained military professionals to turn into Special Forces Recruits. Yet Portugal's Special Forces have repeatedly distinguished themselves, in it's Colonial Wars as well as more recently in places such as Afghanistan.
BTW did you think of including Grupo de Operaes Especiais, from what I've just read they train with the 22nd SAS and Delta Force and have participated in the evacuation of Portuguese citizens abroud.
|
|
Christ-Knight
Knight
Joined: 09-Apr-2007
Location: Portugal
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 54
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 15:56 |
they have been here... and they simply QUIT! they said that here this is unhuman... enough for you now? seals are good... but they have many fails...
|
|
SearchAndDestroy
Caliph
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 14:54 |
lol At first I thought that video was a joke, then I remembered there was a TV show awhile back called Man vs. Beast. That chimp is pretty funny at the end.
By the way, I thought Seal Team 6 was disbanded?
|
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
|
|
Laelius
Consul
Joined: 22-Oct-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 10:48 |
Is it me or do Special Forces threads always attract the most ignorant forummers? First the poll is not only incomplete its entirely too ambiguous. I mean if you're going to make a poll of the best why not do some manner of research, I mean Spetznas SEALs and SAS are but the middle echelon of their respective nations Special operations capability. Each one of these units contains within it more elite subunits staffed with soldiers handpicked from these already elite organizations. Units like Alpha Group, Seal Team 6 and the 22nd SAS.
No I did not... but I know marines who had seals in their team during a drill but they are nothing special... for exapmle the KSK are much better... seals are good, but they are not nothing special... the better forces are the ones that you can even imagine that their exists... belive me... yeah, and think... |
For instance this drivel, what are you basing this nonsense off of? Let me ask you this? Please provide some manner of evidence to prove your assertions. Your reasoning is absurd, units like DAE and KSK have been around for a fraction of the time of the US NAVY SEALs and so of course they are less known but what you've failed to consider is that within an organization like the US Navy SEALs exists what might be termed an elite within an elite.
Sorry Kiddo but until you do a step by step comparison of training selection and operational experience you mine as well stop posting in this thread.
BTW can any of your Special Operations Units compete with this!?
|
|
Byzantine Emperor
Arch Duke
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios
Joined: 24-May-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1800
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 01:21 |
Originally posted by kurt
aparently turkish special forces are the only forces in the world that train with real bullets. ive seen footage of them shooting books of each others heads, one some website, which i will try to find for you. if not, look for footage of the cyprus invasion and you will some greeks getting headshots for trespassing into their territory and trying to tear the turkish flag down. |
Originally posted by the_oz
it was a soldier not a special force who shot the man who was transgressioning turkish border. |
Originally posted by kurt
where did you see this footage? please give me a link.
the footage i saw was a greek getting a head shot for trying to rip the turkish flag down, who are you to tell me what i saw? and considering that the greek government has been caught making fake pictures of turks cutting off kurdish heads i wouldn't be suprised if the footage you saw was fake as well. |
Hey guys, please don't let this thread degenerate into a nationalistic squabble. I am not calling it such yet, but do be careful. Thanks.
|
|
|
kurt
Consul
Joined: 17-Apr-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 358
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 01:10 |
Originally posted by Leonidas
that footage wasn't during the Cyprus invasion, rather more recent. it was one Greek civilian getting shot from behind and that footage has nothing to do with special forces.
|
where did you see this footage? please give me a link.
the footage i saw was a greek getting a head shot for trying to rip the turkish flag down, who are you to tell me what i saw? and considering that the greek government has been caught making fake pictures of turks cutting off kurdish heads i wouldn't be suprised if the footage you saw was fake as well.
however, those weren't special forces, because during the cyprus invasion the turkish special forces weren't yet in existence. they are called bordo bereliler (maroon berets) and came first in the eagle competition four years in a row, and after that the competition was cancelled because they kept winning. the eagle competition is a competition held in america where the world's special forces compete to see who is best. i guess that proves that turkish special forces are the world's best. to take this statement in reference to body armour: 'MB Master Stg. Mehmet A. K. states: "They are not necessary. We are able to eliminate our targets before they can engage us anyway, so there is no point in limiting our mobility with the excess weight of kevlar and metal plates."'
|
|
the_oz
Samurai
Joined: 30-Sep-2006
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 18:50 |
it was a soldier not a special force who shot the man who was transgressioning turkish border.
Edited by the_oz - 21-Apr-2007 at 18:51
|
|
Leonidas
Tsar
Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 09:11 |
that footage wasn't during the Cyprus invasion, rather more recent. it was one Greek civilian getting shot from behind and that footage has nothing to do with special forces.
|
|
kurt
Consul
Joined: 17-Apr-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 358
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 07:42 |
aparently turkish special forces are the only forces in the world that train with real bullets. ive seen footage of them shooting books of each others heads, one some website, which i will try to find for you. if not, look for footage of the cyprus invasion and you will some greeks getting headshots for trespassing into their territory and trying to tear the turkish flag down.
but from what i've read, the french have the best special forces - they're even on counter strike!
the SAS are also quite amazing, the things you have to do to become an SAS solider are awesome and incredibly difficult. try looking them up.
|
|