A common objection to Atlantis capital city in Peru/Bolivia is that it is supposedly too far distance, that they couldn't have projected their power/invasion across America + Atlantic + Mediterranean, that we have to show where are the bases anywhere between, that there are seemingly no shipwrecks anywhere between, and "where is the evidences of Atlantean culture everywhere in between", plus "nations always first invade their neighbours". Here is a listing of a number of our evidences on issue(s) of the distance of Atlantis in the Account (and in history & geography).
- In my original theory i said that Atlantis was said to be a number of days voyage from Africa, and not as long a distance/duration as the voyages of Necho's fleet, Heyerdahl (who only just made it), Columbus (only just made it), but that Atlantis could have shifted and/or seafaring could have declined.
- On the one hand people have thought/felt that the Account implies that Atlantis can't be too far/distant in (time and) space from Athens/Greece & Sais/Egypt. But this is not definitely certain how far Atlantis can't be.
- On the other hand the Atlantis Account even more clearly/strongly says/implies that Atlantis can't be too near/close to Egypt & Greece. "Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" Crit 121. "at a distant point in the Atlantic" (Flem-Ath from a translation of the Atlantis Account). "invaders" Tim 25d. (The Account saying "invaders" may imply similar to our modern "Aliens"?) "Atlanteans were oustanding sailors (had 1200 ships)" (Spanuth's impression of/from Critias 117, 119). "from next Libya to Egypt"? "had rule over the whole island and several others"
- Other Atlantis sources also imply the same remote/far distance: "at the ends of the earth", "remotest" Dio Sic 3:56. "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" - Timagenes. Diodorus Siculus says Atlantis was "out in deep off [outer, W coast of Africa/] Libya a number of days sail to west / many days sailing across the atlantic". [50 stades (500 miles) Plutarch?] ["5 days sail west of Britain".] ["... not far to the west of Europe" Proclus.]
- Atlantis was beyond or facing or in front of the pillars of Hercules. The traditional view is that the pillars that Atlantis was beyond were at Gibraltar. The pillars of Hercules were the farthest point ("... so now Theron reaches the farthest point by his own native excellence; he touches the pillars of Heracles.") Hercules visited the Atlas mountains and the Hesperides in the far west. (We have to rewrite a separate post on the Pillars of Hercules. In the meantime there are our rough posts on the pillars of Hercules at http://lifetradition.webs.com/atlantis.htm and http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,1061458 .)
- The meanings of the names of the biblical Tarshish-Kittim might possibly connect with Atlantis &/or America...? One of a number of meanings of Kittim is "invaders". Tarshish was across a sea xxxx parasangs wide. Tarshish is often considered to be Tartessos which some have thought Atlantis might be identified with. Tarshish & Kittim are prominently associated with ships/fleet/navy. (The meaning of Tarshish may connect with megalithic/heliolithic, see point on Heliolithic/Megalithic?)
- Many scholars/authors have given many evidences for pre-Columian trans-Atlantic contacts. Among my favourite ones are Pierre Honore, Nigel Davies, Barry Fell, Donald MacKenzie, Z Sitchin ('Lost Realms'), T Heyerdhal, SC Compton ('Exodus Lost'), etc. Some seeming possible evidences of others &/or my own include: 3 pyramids of Sipan are similar to 3 pyramids of Giza? Clovis related to Solutrean? C0caine & tobacco found in 19th & 21st dyn mummies. Phoenician purple from Mexican murex (SC Compton 'Exodus Lost'). Orthodox claim Americans came via Beringia, but majority of Amerind traditions say they came from east over sea (ref Berlitz), and it is now said that the oldest American sites are in east N America & in the south Americas (refs incl SC Compton).
- There are evidences that ancients had greater seafaring voyages. The known world seemingly may have contracted after the "sinking", like it expanded after Columbus. Francis Bacon said this about declined/decayed voyages in 'New Atlantis'. The Popul Vuh says the 1st race examined the 4 quarters of the earth. Hapgood's "maps of the sea kings" (inclduing the Piri Reis map). Hancock said "the seas were highways not barriers". "Sea power came before land power" - Hitler & Varange/Yockey based on Geopolitics of Haushofer &/or MacKinder.
- If there was a continental shift then the Atlantic could have previously been anywhere upto half the current distanc/width/travel-duration?
- The Sea Peoples of Egyptian inscriptions, who some think seemingly may match the Atlanteans, came "from the ends of the world/earth", "great darkness", "9th bow/arc", "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water" / "the great water circle [sin-wur]", "from the pillars/pillar of heaven", had "a great fleet of sailed-ships with arching prows at each end, in the shape of bird-heads.... ... the sailed ships of the Peleset were overwhelmed by the slave-oared Egyptian river craft...."; and "The might of Nun (the Ocean) broke forth and fell in a great wave upon their towns and villages". "Assyrian depictions of Toakkari 'Sea Peoples' bearing South American fan palm"? Orthodox scholars say they prefer an eastern Mediterranean origin of the Sea Peoples, yet they admit they don't know where the Sea Peoples came from, and they mention evidence of links with Sardinia (there are pictures in Sardinia that are said to have soldiers similar to depictions of the Sea Peoples). Spanuth claims they came from Heligoland (from evidence of flange-hilt swords, etc)
- To the contention that we don't have any shipwrecks of the 1200 ships/boats, possible answers may include: Perhaps compare how the chariots of Egyptians were all lost in the Red Sea (by Nuweiba)? How many ships remains would there really be likely to be? (Do we have extensive remains of other nations boats/ships etc throughout history?) "Alledged lack of evidence is not dis/proof." ("Can't argue negatives.")
- A number of Atlantis sources claim evidences of Atlantean culture etc is found on (and all around) both sides of the Atlantic (eg I Donnelly). We ourselves have collected quite a few seeming possible evidences of Atlantean vistors to the UK.
- Some say that the Greek original of the Atlantis Account really says that the Atlanteans came from inside to outside [rather than the traditional English verision that they came from outside to inside]. But this merely just says the same thing in inverse/reverse. Every high culture considered their own capital the centre/"in" and everyone else as far/out/"periphery". How far from/to/between "in"/"out"? Where was the middle boundary between in & out (Gibraltar, or ...)? These people also say Atlantis was in front of or in the mouth of the Pillars of Hercules, but it is not certain where the Pillars were, and the pillars were the "farthest".
- "Remotest/farthest/end(s)/out/distant" of some of the sources above well fits Peru as being one of the 2 New World / W Hemisphere civilisations in contrast too the others being in Old World, and as being on the far/west side of S America, and in the farthest western coast of Pangaea (though N America is centred abit further west than S America), and as the only major Tropic of Capricorn band / Southern Hemisphere high culture/civilisation in contrast to the majority of civilsations being in the tropic of Cancer latitude band.
- There is evidence that Tiahuanaco was once a great sea port. "Sea ports in the Andes" (Velikovsky). The Paracas "candelabra" may be a landmark sign for seafarers?
- There are a number of possible Atlantean bases in between including the recently discovered underwater city off/near Cuba, Heligoland, Tartessos, Crete?
- The statue in Azores pointing west with word "this way" implies Atlantis was beyond Azores and shows their route?
- The invasion was over a certain amount of time and space?
- The Heliolithic culture was in a number of places all around the World including Peru. The Megalithic culture occupied the same territory "upto Libya & Tyrrhenia"? (The meaning of Tarshish may connect with megalithic, see point on Tarshish-Kittim?)
- Atlantis was not necessarily on the same faultline as Athens because the Account implies a "greatest" world/global/regional/continental scale/size catastrophe, and because the "sinking" may be Earth crust displacement or continental shift (touching tectonic plates).
- Atlantis being between the Opposite Continent and the Old World may possibly fit that S America is centered further east than North America?
- Atlantis Account seemingly implies that Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" and not in the inner Mediterranean sea (refs Plato 'Timaeus', Dio Sic, Aelian, Timagenes, Flem-Ath, Spanuth). "in the real ocean" "the whole of the land which is within the straits", "all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars" "against the whole of Europe & Asia",
- No large enough sunken landmass is found underwater inside the modern Atlantic ocean between Americas & Old World.
- An ocean going ship of exotic design found while digging mines on Peruvian coasts. Peruvians had "sea-worthy rafts" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs'). The legend of Naymlap tells of the arrival of a great fleet of balsa-reed boats (Chimu/Mochica, refs Sitchin, Pears). Chimu (Chan chan) pottery figure of "reed boat" titled "life on the ocean wave" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs')? Dragon-boat racing Puno? 10 ships Paraiba inscription (refs Kolosimo)? See the Akakor map (though Akakor is claimed to be a fake)?
- Andean civilisation extended from Tiahuanaco (Bolivia) as far as Quito (Ecuador)?
- "Caesar records that the greatest naval engagment he ever undertook was against the Celts of Gaul & Britain. In his De Bello Gallico he writes of a combined Celtic & British fleet of 220 ships .... Caesar describes the ships as deep-water vessels able to traverse the oceans, 'upon the vast open sea', towering above the Roman ships."
- Perhaps compare Phaeacia/Scheria (which some idenify with Atlantis)? "the Phaeacians had the fastest ships, clippers that carry them across far-flung seas (Odyssey 7.)" "the Phaeacians were the best sailors, Poseidon made them a sailor folk (Odyssey 7.)" "dwell apart afar in ocean/deep most remote of men..." ("navel of sea...) "boundary of world..." [Was in the ocean?]
- The ancient version of the Panama canal at Tehuantepec (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost')?
(- Tiahuanaco/Peru had "extensive trade routes"?)
- Thor Heyerdahl was ridiculed so he built a boat/ship and proved it and it is now more accepted.
- Atlas holds up the Heavens &/or the Earth, which may imply far side location?
- Frank Joseph gave evidence of links between Tierra Dentro (in Columbia) and Malta sites.
- Some connect Hyper-borea "beyond the north wind" with Atlantis (faced south, sheltered from north wind). "Abaris gone all round the world without once eating". [Herodotus also theorised Hypernotians.]
- "Thoth [Djehewty /Japheth/Diphath] was born in a distant country to the west which was across a body of water."
- S America is centred further east than N America, and Africa sticks out further than Spain/Europe, both of which maybe reduce the distance/duration?
- A possible evidence that the then known world was not just the Old World (and that the the known world had contracted) is that Herodotus said his contemporaries were wrong that the world was only Europe-Asia-Libya/Africa? (Though O'Connell claims Herodotus said/implied that the world was only Europe-Asia-Libya/Africa?)
- Kirchir's Atlantis map showing Atlantis in Atlantic between Africa/Spain & Opposite Continent/["America"?] looks like [South] America closer than [North] America (either matching the modern fact that S America is centred further east than N America, or implying that Atlantis/America shifte?)
- Some say "larger than" Asia & Libya/Africa is really "between" Asia & Libya/Africa. Americas are between east Asia in n.w. and west Africa/Libya in s.e.
(There are quite a few more evidences connected with the distance
disputes/contentions in the ships & seafaring chapter, and the
invasion & war chapter of our old rough Atlantis thesis paper (last
previous rewriting attempt) at
http://lifetradition.webs.com/atlantis.htm . A few more evidences/points
in our known world chapter of our 2009 rough booklet and our orignal