The Pa Gur battle sites, by Sean B. (and Graham A./mcG.)
This is just a first rough edition of our Pa Gur battles section.
A couple of years ago we discovered that the 9 battle sites of "Nennius'" 'Historia Brittonum' match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts (of the Notita Dignitatum) from Yarmouth to Portsmouth plus Kit's Koty. We later found that the 9 Pa Gur sites as mentioned in Hunt's 'from Glein to Camlan' seem to match our 9 HB & ND sites. (The Pa Gur is a poem?, one of the many chapters? of the Black Book of Carmarthen.) Many have suggested that the HB may have an oral poem as/at its source, and the PG may relate to this. (The triads are said to be composed with being able to memorise in purpose.) If the 12 battles of Arthur in the HB are real then it is not surprising that there may be some other versions of the 12/9 battles/sites like the PG.
As Bowen says, although it is not definite whether the PG predates Geoff of Monmouth, there is no obvious influence.
It is said that the PG continues to defy interpretation, so our thesis doesn't have any major rival theories. Alot seems to be made of the fact that the PG is apparently incomplete. However our findings suggest that its nine battles is a complete set matching the 9 HB battles. The incomplete may perhaps connect with Camlan?
It is not feasible that the Pa Gur battles stretch from [?Skye to] Firth of Forth / Manau Gododdin / Edinburgh to Anglesey to Gloucester / Derby as others seem to imply.
Bowen's analysis of the Pa Gur suggests an Arthur versus Kay rivalry/rift in the part around Celli. The way Bowen &/or Pa Gur describe it looks to us like it might perhaps be interpreted as Britons (Arthur) versus Romans (Kay), since Arthur ("who seems to be not a king but a leader of a war-band") often seems to represent Britain/Britons, while Kay/Cai seemingly matches Gaius/Caius (Julius) Caesar/Kaiser in name (and in nature). (The Romans main area was the south-east quarter according to some maps/sources.) [Note: the Arthur & Kay scenario is similar to Arthur & Lancelot?]
list of Sir Kay/St Kea & Caesar/Romans matches: Kay/Cai/Kei/Cei ~ Caius/Gaius &/or Caesar/Kaiser? Kay &/vs Arthur ~ Romans &/vs Britons? Kay the Tall/Hir ~ Caesar/Romans tall? Dover cliffs? Kay/Chei the Fair/Guin/Win ~ Caesar/Romans fair? Caw of Pictland ~ Caesar in Caledonian wood? [Southern Picts.] Son of Ector ~ Romans from Troy (Hector)? Or, son of Cynyr/hound-king Ceinfarfog/Fork-beard/Fine-beard ~ caesar "hairy"? Step brother ~ Britons & Romans from Aeneas? Steward/seneschal ~ Romans stewards of Britain? Sewer ~ Romans' latrines/baths? (Consul) Cursalen of Kaicester/[caerGai] ~ Guinnion/Dover at/near where (consul) Caesar landed? Battles feats surpassed Arthur's ~ Caesars/Romans great warriors? Count of Anjou/Andegavia ~ Caesar in Gaul? ['Ke of Estreus'? ~ Dover?] Kays father is also called Ludun/Leudonus ~ Roman London or Lugdunum? [or Latinus?] Death not frequently dealt with ~ fits Roman Empire / Caesars' murder? Acid tongue, bullying, boorish ~ fits Romans. Scornful/boastful character Masculine Sir ~ fits Caesar? Fiery/hot headed/temper ~ ...? Cold heart ~ .... Never a coward or traitor One of the 3 diademed men Impossible to cure a wound from his sword Associated with llyn Tegid/lake Bala ~ Tacitus?
We aren't sure of (the unnamed fortress of) the chief porter/porthaur Glewlwyd/gleuluid Gavaelvawr/Gauaeluaur "great grasp" [compare Garwlwyd? Osla Gyllellfawr/Gyllellvawr "big knife"?] (who Mary Jones says goes on to become Arthur's porter in other texts), but it might connect with either portus Adurni (Badon), or port Rutupi, or llongborth, or Peter with keys at gates of heaven. Though it is said to be a stock episode from other "Welsh" texts. The 9 porters/watchdogs of ("the fairest of the castles of the world" of) the giant Ysbaddaden Bencawr (C&O) may be connected though:
Maybe compare the bones of Vortimer buried in the chief ports of this island in Triads?
It is possible that the 7 servants/men of the Porter match our sites: 1st Grynn ~ 1 Glein/Garienis/Gariannonum? 5th Gwrdnei (cat's eyes) ~ 5/8 Guinnion/Dover lighthouses? [or 7/10 Lomond beacon?] 7th Clust(veinyd)/Clust(veinad) ~ 9/12 Clausentum?
(* Gleuluid is possibly a little like some versions of Glein and/or Gloucester? or Kaer-luid-coit?)
The 3 middle PG sites are all settlements like (3 middle ND/SS sites in) Kent, and the 3 middle HB sites (and like the 3/4 sites of ASC 571 entry).
It is said that the 3 'vy(.)thneint Elei' "Vultures of Ely" may link with campus/[maes?]/field of Elleti/Aelecti which may be Camelot. Camelot may be Rutupi/'city of the Legion' (compare Compostela in Galicia?); or Colton/Dover/Guinnion; or London; [or Colchester/Camulodunum?] (Fount guur Helic is connected by some with Ely.) (Is vultures a reference to Roman eagles? (Though eagle is eyri.))
Note: We weren't totally sure which way around the 1st two battles matches are/were. It seems it is more likely Tribruit 1 = Glein/Garianonnum, and Eidyn 1 = Dubglas/Othona, rather than Tribruit 1 = Dubglas/Othona, and Eidyn 1 = Glein/Garianonnum (with cross-switch match of 1st/2nd sites). (There was also another possibility that Tribruit 1 which can mean 3 battles &/or 3 rivers could match the 1st 3 HB battle sites &/or 1st 3 ND/SS forts which are all river sites.)
You can read versions/lists of the Pa Gur battles here: http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/bbc31.html http://www.mythiccrossroads.com/PaGur.htm http://iws.collin.edu/grooms/pagurw1.htm http://www.geocities.ws/vortigernstudies/articles/guestdan2f.html http://hortulus-journal.com/bowen/
1. Trywruid/Tribruit 1 (= Glein = Gariannonum).
Candidates of others/ours for Tribruit (1) have included: Firth of Forth/Manau Gododdin, Glein / Garianonnum, Othona / Dubglas, the 1st 3 HB battles (all rivers).
Tribruit can mean "a place where three rivers meet the surf" or 3 battles. There are 3 or so rivers that meet near the Yarmouth area (Yare, Waveney, Ant, Bute/Bure). ("Gariannonum overlooks the confluence of the Rivers Yare & Waveney at the opening of the major estuary Breydon Water, with the River Bure joining not far to the north"). Yarmouth is or was similar to the location of Portus Lemanis on the Romney Marsh (our Trywruid 2 (PG)/Tribruit (HB).
The grass might connect with fields around Burgh/Gariannonum? (Compare the plain of lleenawg of Taliesin?)
1st of 9 battles PG, 1st of 9 battle sites HB, 2nd (1st excld 1st) of 9 forts ND.
Manaw(yd(dan)) / Manauid / ["Manau Gododdin"] fits the estuary/sea/shore/ships geography/location/nature of Yarmouth then/now, and/or it might connect with Mynyw/Menevia in the 12 Monasteries list (which seemingly may match the 12 battles of HB).
[refs: Graham A, Linda Malcor, J Hawkes.]
( For the possible alternative identification of Tribruit 1 with Othona/Dubglas possible matches include:
3 battles/3 rivers could connect with 4 battles at Dubglas, &/or the few sea-indentations / rivers (Witham, Blackwater, Colne) / sites (Othona, Maldon, Colchester, London) in the area. )
2. Eidyn/Eiddyn 1 (= Dubglas = Othona).
Others have thought Eidyn is din Eidyn / Edinburgh / Agned. See Eidyn 2 for answer to this.
The name of Othona/Ytene/Ithancester could connect with either Eidyn, or anwas/anguas/annwas/aunwas/henwas theWinged/Adeiniog/Adeiniawc/Adeinawg/Edeinauc, or Gododdin (din Eidyn), [or wythnaint/vy(.)thneint/vultures?].
'ar eidin cyminauc/cymminiog' "at Eidyn on the border/[slope?]" could connect with in regio(ne) Linnuis ("precipice"?), and/or limen fortenses (Limen "threshold"?), or st peter on the wall. "As the Mersey was undoutbedly the boundary on the West between the Roman provinces of Maxima and Flavia" (there is a Mersea island in the Othona area).
Llwch/Lluch/Lloch Ll(a)wynnog/Llauynnauc / Llawwynnyawc/Llawwynnyawg ("Windy Hand" / "from beyond the raging sea") possibly could connect with Linnuis (which some link with Lynwyssawr), though tenuous. (Perhaps compare Loch Lein? 'caer Lwyt coed dinas y Llwyn Llwyt'? Lleminawg? Llenlleawg Wyddel from the headland of Ganion?) [Graham says Llwch Llwynnog could connect with Lug(h) Lamhf(h)ada &/or Lancelot du Lac. There might perhaps be a connection of London with Lug (compare Lugdunum)?] Or, "windy hand" could connect with the "wind hole" / 'vith gwint' of the wonders which might connect with Guith Avon street / Guith valley (Essex), or with "blowing wind" of Hodnant valley (vita Iltud) [which name may link with Othona]?
2nd battle PG, 2nd battle site HB, 3rd (2nd excl 1st) SS fort ND.
Eidyn 1 of PG matches maw & eiddyn of Taliesin which seems to match/mirror our Dubglas/Othona.
[refs: Pa Gur, Y Gododdin, Graham A, S Brynjulfson, me/Sean B, Taliesin.]
( For the possible alternative equating of Eidyn 1 as Glein/Garianonnum possible matches include:
Eidyn 2 matches Dover/Guinnion. There are glass vessels and cliff/s at both Dover/Guinnion/Eidyn 2 and Garianonnum/Glein (Eidyn1?). both sites have been suggested to be fort Guinnion. (Glein = Gariannonum/breydon "=" Guinnion = Dover/braddon = glassvessel/cliff = burgh/gariannonum = glein.)
Llwch Llwynnog seems similar to the plain of lleenawg of Taliesin which seemingly may match/mirror Glein in name/nature/number? And/or possibly compare Loch Lein which is similar to Glein? )
3. Celli (= Cat Coit Celidon = Kit's Coty/Weald).
The meaning of Celli "grove" could match (Celidon) wood/forest/silva, (kit's) coty "(battle +) wood" (where there was a clump of trees), and the Weald.
Celli (PG) and Celidon (HB) are similar names/words, and some connect them, though others say they are not actually cognates. Celli/Kelli & Cuelli could connect with two of Arthur's warriors (Keli & Kueli), and/or Arthur's three dogs (Call, Cuall & Cafall), and/or Arthur's court Celli(_)wig, or Killaraus. Cabal's cairn in the Wonders seems to connect with our Celidon/Kit's Coty, e.g. Buelt matches river Beult in Medway area. Killaraus is linked with Stonehenge/Salisbury which is linked with Medway megaliths ("as famous/big as SH")? Celliwig was in "Cornwall" (s.w. corner) which is analogous to Kent (s.e. corner). The Triads has Guinevere at Celliwig which may link Celliwig with Guinnion [Dover] which is in Celidonian wood in Irish source.
Not sure of the "loss/fall" of Celli ("When Celli was lost, Cuelli was found" or "when Celli was lost, there was fury" or "when Celli was lost, men endured cruelty/savagery"), but maybe compare Cerdicsleaga of ASC, or the river Loose (Medway). Or, it might connect with a tradition that Arthur lost the first battle (at kaerluidcoit) of his 12 battles. Some connect kaerluidcoit with cat coit celidon because of the coit in both (though we had not favoured this from our research). Or, it could connect with Categern. Bowen thinks it is to do with Arthur versus Cai feud/rift, and loss of Arthur's court Celli(_)wig.
3rd PG battle; 4th HB battle; [4th (3rd excl 1st) SS site]. (Cross switch match of 3rd/4th battles/sites.)
[refs: Graham A, Pa Gur, Culhwch ac Olwen, "Nennius"/HB/Wonders, Howship Dickinson, hortulus-journal.com, Bowen, Triads.]
4. Afarnach (= Bassas = Regulbium).
Afarnach matches our Bassas (HB)/Reculver (ND).
(Afarnach's) hall / the hall (of Afarnach) matches hall on the island of Afallach/Avalon (Triads). The hall seemingly may be the monastery church bult around the Reculver Cross, which is the church built around levitating altar of the Wonders, the mysterious body of which is suggested may be Arthur. Compare the church of the "tradition that Arthur is said to rest at Baschurch". [Coincidentally/interestingly, Hunt's Afarnach candidate Abernethy is near Perth which is similar to the berth of Baschurch? Is it coincidence that Ardrey's Bassas is also at Carpow/Perth?]
The name Wrnach/Awrnach/Awarnach/Afarnach('s) matches Afallach/Avalon/Avaron. (Possibly compare compare (Lindis)Farne/holy island (though the etymology is supposed to be different)?) It also may possibly match Avene (Cerdicsford, ASC/Ethelwerd), and/or St Aaron? Avalon is in North sea in Irish source.
The 'penpalach'/"head of Palach"/"cudgel's head" might link with Regulbium "at the promontory/great headland"? [or palace/hall?]
Some connect Afarnach and Brynach but others think this is weak (etymologically/etc).
[refs: J Spanuth, Welsh Triads, Mary Jones, ASC, Pa Gur, J Deveril, August/Dan Hunt, Wonders of Britain, A Hassell, dad, wiki, Culhwch ac Olwen, Saints Lives, Graham A.]
5. Dissethach (= City of the Legion = Rutupiae.)
the fastness(es) (of Dissethach) matches Ebbsfleet/Richborough then, and Lynn Liuan of the Wonders (and Lynn Liuan/Leominster of 12 Monasteries list (which matches the 12 battles of HB), and the 9th wave of P... where Gwalchmai buried).
the dwellings/settlements (of Dissethach) match the urbs/city (of the Legion) (and the metropolis of Padarn). As a settlement it matches Kent. The first part of the name Dissethach [or dunScaith?] is thought to mean tig "house" [or dun "fort(ress)/castle"?] which also matches city/settlement &/or fort (of Saxon Shore). [Perhaps there is a connection with Tintagel which may be in Thanet/Richborough/Deal area?]
The name Dissethach/[Brys(sethach)] may be tig "house" [or dun "fort"] of Scathach/Scathgi/Schathaigi "shadow(s)" [or Caillich "witch"?] and/which could possibly connect with Sandwich though the etymology of that name is supposed to be sand + wick "village". Scathach's homeland is Alpae which links with Albion (white cliffs of Dover/Reculver). [She may also connect with Skadi wife of Njord?]
The analogy/mirror site in s.e. Skye may be analogous with our site in SE and by Thanet?
Others/our candidates for Eidyn have included: Edinburgh, din Eidyn (Gododdin), Agned (Brynjulfson), Eden(bridge)/Eden(valley) (Medway), Etins, Etna, garden of Eden, Edwinstowe, Othona/Ytene, Yarmouth, Guinnion, Dover, seige of Etin in Northumbria (Iona chronicle, me/Sean); Clydno Eidyn/Eiddin of Lothian (me/Sean), Appled Ash (via garden of Eden), Eden Hall, Eidyn (Taliesin), Eden valley (Cross Fell, Cumbria), Ederington, shield Ethel, Thancastre/Thong Castle/Caistor (Lincs).
Others have previously thought that there are 7 not 9 Pa Gur battles with Eidyn 1 & 2 and Tribruit 1 & 2 being same sites/battles, and/or thought that Tribruit 1 (&/or 2) connect with HB Tribruit, and Eidyn 1 (&/or 2) connects with Agned because Eidyn 1 comes after Tribruit 1 like Agned comes after Tribruit in the HB (though the Eidyn 2 and Tribruit 2 are different order to Tribruit 1 and Eidyn 1), as well as because tradition associates Agned with Edinburgh. However we have found that there are 9 not 7 Pa Gur battles , matching the 9 HB battles, and there are 2 Tribruits and Eidyns not 1 Tribruit and Eidyn. The HB Tribruit (7th) can't match Trirbuit 1 (1st) only Tribruit 2 (7th) because of the numbers/order & matches. Agned (8th) can't be Eidyn 1 (2nd) because of the numbers/order & matches. Agned (8th) can't be Eidyn 2 (6th) because of the numbers and order (Eidyn 2 comes before not after Tribruit 2), and because Agned seems to match Ystawinguin and Eidyn 2 seems to match our Guinnion/Dover. We are not certain of what the explanation for the Agned association with Edinburgh. It may just be because Geoffrey of Monmouth linked Agned with "Albany" (which is really the Downs/Cliffs/Albion not Scotland) and Alclud/"Dumbarton" (which they say is unknown to classical historians). And/or it may be because of confounding of (Edinburgh with both) Guinnion/Dover/Albion/Eidyn ("white" chalk north downs) and Bre-Guoin/Agned/Pevenesy ("(white) hill(s)" chalk south downs). Some seem to suggest that Cynbyn "dog heads" connect with Votadini/Gododdin (Venicones, (caer_)ceni_bei/cyn_ni_bai?). There is also an Eden valley at/near Cross Fell in Cumbria.
Matches of Eidyn 2 & Guinnion/Dover:
The mynydd/minit/mount (of eidyn) matches the north downs &/or western heights & eastern heights &/or cliffs of Dover. [Slope may match too?] Compare Arddunion "fortress height" of Taliesin.
We are not sure if din Eidyn of Y Gododdin is either or both or neither of Eidyn 1 &/or 2 of Pa Gur, but din/fort would connect with fort Guinnion (HB) and the castro at Dover. As a settlement it fits Kent (and middle HB & ND sites).
The chinbin/cynbyn/cynvyn "dog-heads/dog-headed men/cynocephali/werewolves/champions" (compare Garwl(l)wyd of Tribruit) connect with the Saxons/Pagans of Guinnion (dog is a term for infidel in Judaeo-Christian), or with the Southern Picts of Hwiterne "white house" (St Martin) which is Guinnion/Dover (Martin le Grand), or with the Jutes of Kent who were called "sea wolves/dogs" [and Frisians "dogheads"?]. "in England we often see men changed into wolves with changes of the moon" (Tilbury) = eclipse kalends Martii 538 = pagans/cross at Guinnion = Dover/Martin le Grand. (Note eclipse at Calvary.) Fort Guinnion is connected with St Guinefort who is linked with cynocephali in wikipedia.
The "fell by hundred(s)" matches the great slaughter at Guinnion.
We can't prove how the name or meaning Eidyn connects. There is an Eden(bridge)/Eden(valley) in upper Medway area that might perhaps somehow connect, though it is some distance. Possibly Eidyn may relate to the garden of Eden which is connected with Jerusalem/Calvary. Jerusalem in Arthurian seems to connect with Rutupi/Legions &/or Dover/Guinnion. "Legions and Jerusalem built at same time". 'Cursalen of Kaicester' of '11 consuls' (which seems to match our 12 battles) seems to match Guinnion/Dover. Arthur bore the Cross at Guinnion and there is a Galvarium in the Modena Archivolt which seems to show Dover lighthouse, and both connect with Cross of Calvary/Golgotha. Eidyn in Taliesin may correspond with Badon. AC Badon & HB Guinnion are similar (and there is a Braddon at Dover/Guinnion).
Dubiously, the "before Bedwyr/Beduir Bydrydant" might link with the Bredenstone/Braddon? or before Badon?
The PG mentions Arthur, matching HB Arthur. ["Arthur" = Britain = Albion = Dover = shield/shoulder?] (Though a source says the PG doesn't mention Arthur only some associates of his.)
The fortress/castle on a lofty "Saxon Rock" in/near the region Arestel ["seat"?] nearby the narrows of Godalente of the Vulgate cycle could match Saxons/pagans of fort Guinnion and the cliffs & straits of Dover. Damo connects this rock with Edinburgh (Eidyn 1 &/or 2), and Godalente with Gododdin/Otalini/Votadini (Venicones, (caer_)ceni_bei/cyn_ni_bai?). [Calton Hill at/near Edinburgh may be similar to Colton near Dover??]
Arthurian sources mention Etna which is near the straits of ..., like our Eidyn is at straits of Dover.
Certain sources have "gododdin/eidin/catraeth 538" which happens to match our Guinnion/Dover/Eidyn 538. [Catraeth might link with Brebic's stone (in a) cataract which might link with Bredenstone?]
There is a faintly possible connection of Eidyn 2, the enameled drinking glass of Eden Hall, and the glass vessel at Dover (which may link with the holy grail?). "drinking at eidyn" recalls Bacchic painted house at Dover (which part of was not covered by the SS fort and may have survived).
The connection of Pa Gur with Carmarthen may also relate to Martin le Grand?
[refs: Damo B, S Brynjulfson, Vortigern studies, A/D Hunt, Geoff of Mon, Vulgate Cycle, Pa Gur/Black Book of Camarthen, Mary Jones, Old English Chronicles, Y Gododdin, JC Cooper.]
7. Trywruid/Tribruit 2 (= Tribruit = Portus Lemanis).
Others theorise that Tribruit (1/2) is Broken Hook/Firth of Forth/Manau Gododdin.
Tribruit 2 matches our Tribruit / Lemanis.
The treathev/trat/strands/shore (of Tribruit) matches the descriptions of geography of the modern/medieval/ancient Lemanis area (see Tribruit in the 9 HB battles section). (Shore also matches Saxon Shore.)
Tribruit name matches Tribruit of HB which battle site matches Lemanis area in meaning/s and number/order. Tribruit/Arderit/Ribroit also possibly has name match/es in the area (Ripp?) Tribruit can mean 3 rivers &/or 3 battles. There are/were 3 rivers in the Lemanis area (River Rother, River Brede, River Tillingham).
Bedwyr &/or Bridlaw/bridlav possibly could connect with Brede?
Previously others thought Agned was Eidyn 1 (&/or 2). See Eidyn 2 above for answer to that. Some have connected Ystawinguin with Guinnion. If the 9 PG battles match our 9 HB battles and 9 ND forts then the uplands (of Ystawinguin) can only be either Dover/Guinnion or Agned/Pevensey. 8th PG battle can't match 5th HB battle or 6th ND/SS fort. Guinnion seems to match Eidyn 2 and Ystawinguin seems to match Agned/Pevensey/Hastings. 2 other theories connect Ystawinguin with Stanton Moor/Nine Ladies/Amber river (Derbyshire) and with Stanton/Staunton/Gloucester.
Matches of Ystawingun with Agned/Bregion/Pevensey:
The above/yguarthaw/upland(s)/heights/top (of Ystawingun) connect with Breguoin "(white) hill(s)" and the South Downs. There are downs/hills/cliffs at/by/near both Pevensey, and Hastings (East Hill and West Hill).
The name Ystavingon/(Y)stawingu(i)n/Ystawfingun / Ystarfingun seemingly may connect with Hastings/Haestingas/heasta('s) /hestingorum (gens) (reckoned to be from Heasta('s) + ing "people/descendants/sons/young"). The meaning of [ystaw(ingun)?] is otherwise uncertain/unknown (ideas included yscawndroed, stanton/staunton, (gwen)ystrad "valley", ystum/oytser, ystwyth, gwensteri. The -gu(i)n could otherwise match the guoin of Breguoin "(white) hill(s)"?
The 9 witches/guiton (9 ladies in the Derby mirror site) we are not sure of yet but it might connect with the castle of Maidens (Agned), or with Ninfield near Pevensey, or with 7 sisters cliffs near the area? (Or there could be a connection of 9 ladies with tumuli in/around the hills on/to the west of Pevensey?)
8th PG battle, 8th HB battle, 8th ND/SS fort.
[refs: Graham A, Dan/August Hunt ('from Glein to Camlan'), Mary Jones, Pa Gur, maps, mythiccrossroads.com, Damo.]
9. Mon(a)/"Anglesey/Angelsey" (= Badon = Portus Adurni).
Mon(a) matches Badon/Portchester.
The Mon(a)/Von may connect with either Meon(ware) or Mons (Badon) [or Avon??], and/or ynys Von/Mon(a)/"Anglesey" corresponds with Wight/"Thanet".
9th of 9 Pa Gur battles matches 9th of 9 HB battles and 9th of 9 ND/SS forts.
The connection with Arfon may match the Salisbury Avon near our Badon (Portchester &/or Bitterne).
The 9 score matches the 470/940/960 of Badon.
The shield matches Arthur's shield/shoulder of AC Badon/HB Guinnion?
The "lions" could perhaps connect with city of lions between lands end & scilly? Arthur "penetrated to Badon". Portchester is the (south-)western-most ND fort. [Maybe compare that Collingwood thought Portchester was city of the legion.]