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Kingdom of Champa

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
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Topic: Kingdom of Champa
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Kingdom of Champa
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 10:09

I want to discuss kingdom of Champa, a very old Kingdom in ancient Vietnam.

The ancient kingdom of Champa was situated in the central coast of Viet Nam at one time stretched from the Ngang Pass (pressent Quang Binh province) to the upper basin of Dong nai river. The Cham people is believed to be of the same Javanese stock as many of the creators of the Dong Son culture further to the north. As they were intrepid seafarers, and as their land was well placed not far from the sea route from India to China, the Chams were exposed very early to Indian culture and its Brahman religion.

Overview of History of Kingdom of Champa
The history of the kingdom of Champa was marked with constant engagement in war and hostility with its neighbors, especially those from the North. Champa was first noted in Chinese historical writings in 192 AD. At the time, the Chams were concentrated in the area of the present Binh Thuan province. During the 3rd century, they expanded northward, seizing territory from the Han dynasty who ruled Viet Nam. They rapidly pushed northward and for a brief time occupied the the Red River Delta and several provinces in southern China. During the 4th and 5th centuries, the Chinese recaptured southern China and Viet Nam and expelled the Chams. The kingdom of Champa slowly contracted until by the 8th century, it corresponded approximately to the present Central and South Viet Nam. In the 10th century, only fifty years after gaining independence from China, Viet Nam invaded Champa. The Cham successfully repelled the Vietnamese and concentrated their effort in controlling their southern territory and the adjacent high land. During the 12th century, the Khmers to the west invaded the southern portion of Champa and occupied the Mekong delta. But in 1217, the Khmers and Chams allied against and defeated the Vietnamese, and the Khmers withdrew from the Mekong delta. Late in the 13th century, the Mongol army of Kublai Khan occupied Champa for five years, until it was defeated by the Vietnamese in 1287. From then on and little by little, the Vietnamese became master of all the land north of Hai Van pass by 1306. From 1313 on, the Vietnamese only allowed their puppets on the Cham throne. Che Bong Nga (1360-1390) alone resisted for a time and he even succeeded raiding the Red River delta and pillaged the Vietnamese capital of Thang Long (Ha Noi) in 1372. But his successors could not protect their own territory. In 1471, the Vietnamese invaded Champa, captured its capital of Vijaya and massacred thousands of its people. This event signified the cease of existence of Champa as a kingdom. In the mid-17th century, the Vietnamese again marched southward and captured the remaining Cham land in the present provinces of Phu Yen and Khanh Hoa. In 1832, the absorption of Champa land was completed and Viet Nam extended its total control over the Mekong delta all the way to Ca Mau, the the southern most tip of the land.

Minh Bui
References:
The Indianized States of Southeast Asia, G. Coedes, 1968 Status of the Latest Research on the Absorption Of Champa by Viet Nam, Po Darma, Proceedings of the Seminar on Champa, 1988
 

Source of map:
Proceeding of the Seminar on Champa, University of Copenhagen, May 23, 1987
Champa and the Southward Expansion of Viet Nam
2-3
century

AD
Kingdom of Lin-Yi (Lam Ap) was recorded in Chinese annals. Lin-Yi raided Viet Nam and Southern China in 248
543 Champa attacked Viet Nam but was defeated by Pham Tu, a general of king Ly Bon
982 Viet Nam force led by Ly Thuong Kiet attacked and pushed Champa's border to south of Hoanh Son (Thanh Hoa)
1069 King Ly Thanh Tong led Viet Nam to invade Champa, sacked Vijaya and took king Rudravarman III (Che Cu) prisoner in exchange for 3 provinces Dia Ly, Ma Linh and Bo Chanh (present Quang Binh and Quang Tri)
1307 Vietnamese princess Huyen Tran married king Jaya Sinhavarman III (Che Man). in exchange for two provinces O and Ly
1370 King Che Bong Nga raided and pilfered Thang Long (Ha Noi). Che Bong Nga was killed in battle in 1382
1402 Viet Nam invaded Champa. Ho Quy Ly forced king Campadhiraya to concede Indrapura (Quang Nam) and the territory of Amaravati (North Champa) to Viet Nam
1471 Vietnamese army led by King Le Thanh Tong captured and destroyed Vijaya. Viet Nam annexed the new land as provinces of Thang Hoa, Tu Nghia and Hoai Nhon
1578 Lord Nguyen Hoang annexed the Cham region of Phu Yen
1653 Lord Nguyen Phuc Tan captured Cham's region of Kauthara and pushed Viet Nam's southern border to Cam Ranh
1692 Lord Nguyen Phuc Chu annexed the remaining Champa territory as the new prefecture of Tran Thuan Thanh

http://www.viettouch.com/champa/ - http://www.viettouch.com/champa/

I am specially interested in the architecture of Champa Kingdom.

I am also interested in ancient Champa language and literature.

Linguists have classified Cham as a member of the Malayo-Polynisian family spoken by several ethnic groups lived along the coast of South China sea and the Malay Archipelago. As they come from one linguistic family, the Cham, Malay and Javanese languages share numerous lexical similarities. The written Cham is based on the Sanskrit alphabets. As early as the 3rd century AD, inscription of Sanskrit texts were found on the steles as they were used to record royal chronicle and important historical events. This epigraphic practice ceased in 1471 with the downfall of Champa. About the mid-16th century, a modern form of Cham emerged and gradually replaced the classical (old Cham) language which heavily used Sanskrit and Arabic vocabularies . Modern Cham became more popular in the 17th through the 19th century as a number of manuscripts and texts of history, religion, folklore and legends, poetry and epics were written in the new language.

A religious emblem used in ancient Cham cremation ceremony.

 

 

http://www.viettouch.com/ - http://www.viettouch.com/




Replies:
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 12:44

Interesting.

Based on this historical background, do you think Indochina, in general, tends today more toward Buddhist and Hindu civilization models, or more toward a Chinese Confucian model?

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2006 at 12:56
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Interesting.

Based on this historical background, do you think Indochina, in general, tends today more toward Buddhist and Hindu civilization models, or more toward a Chinese Confucian model?

 

The name is Indochina Pikeshot so influences from both India and China are there.China itself used to be a Buddhist country.With decades of communist rule religion has taken a backseat in both China and Indochina.Though India did not have communist rule and same is not the case with that country.Confucianism is not really a religion so I think it would be wrong to compare it to Hinduism/Budhhism.

With China's economic boom I think their economic and cultural influence is more visible than that of India in Indochina right now.

In short,whole thing is a mess.I've been trying to untangle some knots which I've tied myself into.Please ask more questions.



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Posted By: AthaNnikIcHaA
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 08:37

Some Pictures

http://bierstedt.com/Vietnam/Vietnam29.jpg - http://bierstedt.com/Vietnam/Vietnam29.jpg

http://asiaforvisitors.com/vietnam/central/myson/thumbs/elephants.jpg - http://asiaforvisitors.com/vietnam/central/myson/thumbs/elep hants.jpg

 

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/596636/2/istockphoto_596636_sanskrit_stela.jpg - http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/596636/2/i stockphoto_596636_sanskrit_stela.jpg

 



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Baingan Khaa Lo Baingan


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 06:42

Cham Language

Cham, a Malayo-Polynesian / Malayic language, is official ethnic community in Viet Nam. The Cham maintained a powerful kingdom that dominated the central Vietnamese coast from the 12th to the 17th century.  During this period their businessmen traded throughout Southeast Asia. 

Boats and buffalo carts were their main means of transport and travel.  There primary crop is wet rice.  They are also experienced in gardening and raising livestock and poultry.  Traditionally their written language used the Sanskrit system.

The traditional Cham families are matriarchal.  The bride’s family organizes the wedding and the couple lives with the woman’s family.  Cham’s practice Hindu, Islam and Buddhism, depending upon the region.  Death ritual include both burial and cremation.  Handicrafts are well developed, especially silk textiles and pottery. Austro-Asiatic influences.

http://www.ibike.org/ibike/vietnam/central/5-Tam%20Ky.htm - http://www.ibike.org/ibike/vietnam/central/5-Tam%20Ky.htm

Sample
Translation In the beginning God created heaven and earth. The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The spirit of God was hovering over the water. Then God said, "Let there be light!" So there was light. God saw the light was good. So God separated the light from the darkness. God named the light "day", and the darkness he named "night". There was evening, then morning, the first day.
Statistics Viet Nam (35,000) - United States (10) - Total (55,000)
Classification Austronesian | Malayo-Polynesian

http://www.language-museum.com/c/cham-eastern-brahmic.php - http://www.language-museum.com/c/cham-eastern-brahmic.php



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Posted By: poirot
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 20:58
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Interesting.

Based on this historical background, do you think Indochina, in general, tends today more toward Buddhist and Hindu civilization models, or more toward a Chinese Confucian model?

 

Annam, what is now Northern Vietnam - Chinaes influence greater

Champa, what is now Souther Vietnam - Indian influence greater



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AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           


Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 22:36
Originally posted by poirot

Annam, what is now Northern Vietnam - Chinaes influence greater

Champa, what is now Souther Vietnam - Indian influence greater

That's true. Interestingly, though, by 1978, among the 1.5 million overseas Chinese in Vietnam, about 300,000 lived in North Vietnam, the majority of whom were coal miners, factory workers, fishermen; the rest were living in the urban centres of South Vietnam where they literally controlled the most important aspects of the South Vietnamese economy.



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Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 13:57

On the topic of "Vietnamese surnames", I found the following quote from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_name - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_name

"Virtually all family names are Chinese in origin, although a few (particularly in the south) have been traced to Cham origins, but presumably have been Vietnamized."

I was wondering if there's any Vietnamese forumer here who knows anything about that.

I've found more information on the Chams:

http://www.cpamedia.com/articles/20010703_01/ - http://www.cpamedia.com/articles/20010703_01/

The Champs: Survivors of a Lost Civilisation

The Cham are perhaps the oldest and least-known people of Indochina. Inheritors of a proud tradition that stretches back almost two thousand years, Champa was the first Indianised Kingdom in Indochina. Its founding predates both the beginnings of Cambodia in about 550 AD, and the first major expansion of the Vietnamese south from the Red River delta of Tonkin in the mid-10th century.

Our earliest records of Champa are Chinese, dating from 192 AD. In these dynastic annals the people of Lin-yi, or Champa, are described as having 'dark skin, deep-set eyes, turned up noses and frizzy hair', trends which are still often recognisable in the modern descendants of the Chams today. The annalist records that the Chams dress 'in a single piece of cotton or silk wrapped about the body. They wear their hair in a bun on the top of their head, and they pierce their ears in order to wear small metal rings. They are very clean. They wash themselves several times each day, wear perfume, and rub their bodies with a lotion made of camphor and musk'.

At the peak of their power, about 12 centuries ago, the Chams controlled rich and fertile lands stretching from north of Hue, in central Annam, to the Mekong Delta in Cochinchina. Yet today Vietnamese cities like Da Nang and Nha Trang dominate these regions. Only mysterious brick temples, known familiarly as "Cham Towers", dot the skyline around Thap Cham and Po Nagar, Cha Ban and My Son, whilst in Cambodia the name of an eastern province and its capital, Kampong Cham, remain as mute testimony to the passing of a kingdom. The question arises, what happened? And where are the Chams - those that survive - today?

The origin of the Chams, like that of most peoples, is lost in the mists of time. Unlike most other inhabitants of Southeast Asia north of the Malay peninsula, they are an Austronesian people, more closely linked with the islands of the Malay-Indonesian world and the Philippines than with the mainland. We can surmise - but no more - that at some distant time they migrated by sea from the Indonesian Archipelago and settled in what is now central Vietnam.

The bases of what we know of early Cham society would seem to bear out this hypothesis. Unlike their Viet and Khmer neighbours, whose societies are based on intensive rice cultivation, the Cham seem to have had little time for agriculture. Champa's prosperity was based on maritime trade - and more than probably on a degree of piracy. Champa's principal exports seem to have been slaves (mainly prisoners of war) and sandalwood. This latter commodity, which was of great importance to the intensely religious societies of early Southeast Asia, brought considerable riches.

Silver Tower, Quy Nhon.
Reinhard Hohler / CPA
Silver Tower, Quy Nhon.

Much of this wealth seems to have been expended on building "Cham Towers" - exquisitely decorated, brick-and-sandstone keeps and temples dedicated to the first major religion of Champa, a form of Shaivite Hinduism which was introduced from India by sea during the early centuries AD. Even today, despite the ravages of time, these symbols of Cham civilisation remain impressive, not least for their masterful masonry. Layer upon layer of hard-baked brick are fitted together apparently without mortar, and yet so precisely that it is all but impossible to insert a knife blade between any two sections.

The most important and extensive Cham tower complex was raised at My Son, Champa's pre-eminent religious centre, about 50 kilometres west of Da Nang. Simhapura, the political capital - known today as Tra Kieu - was located nearby, about half-way between Da Nang and My Son.

Tran Ky Phuong, Director of Vietnam's excellently-appointed Cham Museum in Da Nang, explains that although there are many Cham temples and towers scattered throughout coastal southern Vietnam, the main reason there is no single major site comparable to Angkor or Pagan is because 'the Cham were traders. As such they did not have a strong attachment to the land'. Yet it was this very proximity to the sea which brought Hinduism to the Chams - their first world religious tradition - just as it would bring their second, Islam.

Arab merchants reached Guangdong in southern China as early as the 7th century AD, and it seems clear that they stopped along the central Vietnamese coast en route for provisions and trade. The first concrete evidence of such intercourse - and of an Islamic presence in Vietnam - is a 10th century stone pillar inscribed in Arabic which was found near the coastal town of Phan Rang.

As elsewhere in Southeast Asia, from Aceh to Sulu, Islam seems to have spread peacefully through commerce and intermarriage. The egalitarian message of the new religion may have appealed to the poorer classes, Hinduism being most closely associated with the Cham aristocracy. Be this as it may, the Cham Kingdom was destined to lose its independence before the new religion could effect a full conversion.

With the emergence of the powerful Cambodian Kingdom of Angkor in about 800 AD, and the renewal of Vietnam's territorial expansion to the south just over a century later, Champa found itself hopelessly outnumbered and caught in a politico-cultural vice between Khmer Buddhism and Vietnamese Confucianism. This vice gradually tightened with the Vietnamese, in particular, pushing the Chams south towards the Mekong Delta.

In 1471 the outnumbered Chams suffered a terrible defeat at the hands of the Vietnamese. 60,000 of their soldiers were reportedly killed, and another 60,000 carried into captivity. Champa was reduced to a small sliver of territory in the region of Nha Trang, which survived until 1720, when the king and many of his subjects fled to neighbouring Cambodia rather than submit to Vietnamese conquest. The Cham Diaspora dates from this period, and the diverse Cham communities later established in Cambodia, Thailand and Laos can trace their common origin to this catastrophe.

Today there are about 77,000 Chams in Vietnam, living mainly in the coastal provinces of Thuan Hai, Khanh Hoa and Phu Yen, as well as in the Mekong Delta province of Chau Doc. Although sharing the same linguistic and historical tradition, they remain divided into two quite distinct religious communities, the Hindu Chams and the Cham Bani, or Muslims. The latter are easily distinguished by the men's preferred headgear - a crimson fez with a long golden tassel, or white Muslim prayer cap.

Cham drummer calling the faithful to prayer.
David Henley / CPA
Cham drummer calling the faithful to prayer.

The two groups live peacefully side-by-side, as they do with their Viet neighbours, but there is no marriage between them. This rigid taboo is deeply rooted in the past, as is underlined in an epic poem of the Cham, Araya Cham Ni, which relates the tragic outcome of a love affair between a Hindu boy and a Muslim girl. In a nominally atheist society, it is a reflection of the continuing power of religion that such spiritual differences continue to divide a people which has survived Viet conquest, French colonialism, and American intervention in Indochina.

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 13:34

CHAM MUSLIMS

This article is about Cham muslims.It's long so I'll present the opening paragraphs.

The Cham Muslims of Indo-China



J. Willoughby

 

The Cham Muslims of Vietnam and Cambodia represent one of the most forgotten Muslim peoples of the Muslim ummah.
We hear of the Muslim minorities in the Soviet Union, China and India due to their large numbers and majority-minority tensions, and sometimes of the smaller Muslim communities in Burma, Thailand and the Philippines. But, it seems that we never hear of the Muslims of Indo-China, as their numbers have never been large and because they have never really had any political or economic influence or power in their native lands.

Even though we now have some of them living and working among us as refugees, we still know next to nothing about their history, culture or religious practices within their homelands. We are even more ignorant of the fate of those who for one reason or another remained behind after the communist victories throughout Indo-China in 1975.
http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/cham_muslims.html - http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/cham_muslims.html

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2006 at 13:47

Some Pics

A mosque in Siem Reap, Cambodia

 

Crescent moons against a stormy monsoon sky, Vientiane, Laos.

Crescent moons against a stormy monsoon sky, Vientiane, Laos.

Jahed elders reading Koran scripts in ¡°old Cham¡± the ancient Cham language.



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Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 16:14
The Brahmin goddess Danu has a temple in Bali. Were Danu , Mahagouri or Mahaji known in Champa? They are known in traditional religion in Australia.
chimera


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 19:15
Bali is majority Hindu so it isn't surprising. How do you known so much about aboriginial religion? Which part of Australia?

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Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2007 at 23:26
In east Australia, Bundjalung legend says 3 men sailed a ship from Ngareenebeil. www [three brothers bundjalung] gives several sites with info., as in "Australian Dreaming" J.Isaacs. Cam. and "Papers of Marjorie Oakes-Bundjalung" AIATSIS Canberra.  Personal interviews and other books on Koori cultures gave me more details. The Sanskrit vocabulary of Champa, Angkor and Java-Bali seems to also be there in east Australian languages.
chimera


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2007 at 18:58
www [three brothers bundjalung]

Could you give that website again.

I don't see how there could be any Indian influence on the east coast of Australia, on the Northern coast there was almost certainly contact between Indonesians and Aboriginies so a transmission of hindu culture and religion is quite possible.

Where do you live by the way?


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Posted By: chimera
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 19:48

http://www3.environment.nsw.gov.au/PDFs/lennox_head_pom.pdf - Lennox Head Aboriginal Area Plan of Management

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:OHQTtJYwQngJ:www3.environment.nsw.gov.au/PDFs/lennox_head_pom.pdf+three+brothers+bundjalung&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=22&gl=au - View as HTML
According to Bundjalung tradition, the ancestral Three. Brothers first settled the area and landed on the beach at Lennox Head (approximately ...
www3.environment.nsw.gov.au/PDFs/lennox_head_pom.pdf
click on "Aboriginal Heritage"
Omar,
the www sites give little info. but more detail is in "Australian Dreaming" J Isaacs. Cam. The 3 men sailed a ship from Ngareenbeil. Malay negara means "national", and was the ceremonial state-system in Brahmin-ruled Bali._"Negara" C Geertz.Princeton.  Bundjalung (Grafton-Brisbane area) ngara means "ceremony".
I'm from Armidale NSW and my wife was a tutor of Koori students doing archaeology of sacred sites. The sea-current from Solomon Islands brought abandoned out-rigger canoes to north Queensland, and Fraser Island legend says Ngulungi people arrived by canoes. Bundjalung language seems to have about 10% Sanskrit words.
chimera


Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 04:22
The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders.  They were a thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.  Vietnam overran Champa in 1471, massacring 10's of thousands and taking as many as slaves.  Many others fled to Malaya, Cambodia and Hainan Island.  Needless to say, the relationship between the Vietnamese and the Chams was a 1000 year old blood feud.

They were tough adversaries.  Militarily, they did better against the Vietnamese than the Mongols ever did.





Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 14:53
Welcome to a new member . Good to see that some SEANS have found this forum,  although some nationalistic touches occur here and there in the postings.
 
The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders. They were a thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.
 
There were often pirates and slavetraders  but they were much more than that. And slavetrade and piracy were practiced by Vietnamese ( and the others mentioned) as well,  but if that is the only thing that is mentioned , it can suggest that the Vietnamese were a bunch of wilds.
 
Chams had very well organized polities for more than 1000 years and were very developed in all aspects.  As far as solid evidence goes they were even SEA ´s first literate state.
 
 


Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 17:40
Originally posted by Sander

Welcome to a new member . Good to see that some SEANS have found this forum, 

Thanks

Originally posted by Sander


There were often pirates and slavetraders  but they were much more than that. And slavetrade and piracy were practiced by Vietnamese ( and the others mentioned) as well, 
 
Not anywhere near as much as the Chams.  The Chams lived in the Central highlands of Vietnam.  This area was by far less fertile than the Red River Delta of the northern and the Mekong Delta of the southern part of Vietnam.  Han census data shows that the northern Vietnam had some of the most densest population in the world.

Also, the Chams had been preying upon Vietnamese during the Chinese occupation, practically from the time they were began as an organized state.  Now this should inform you that if such tiny, tiny state is willing to prey upon the massive Chinese empire, then they are very much a bunch of "wilds".

If "geography is destiny", then the Chams were forced to be wilds by the very land they occupied:  The Chams had to make a living slave trading and piracy.  If you go back to Dongsonian times, or the first millenium BCE, and look at Vietnamese art, then you'll see nothing that pertains to war, despite the Red River Delta's spectacular population density.  Vietnamese, prior, to being sandwich between two predators, namely the Chinese and the Chams, were basically peaceful, relatively speaking, and later learned to be violent out of necessity.

Mind you, a land is generally peaceful until it hits a certain population density, at which point, the competition for resources naturally drives people to murder each other.  Now, if said land is highly fertile & capable of sustaining rather large numbers of people, then the people will be peaceful--relatively speaking.

Perhaps this is why the Vietnamese state of Van Lang, circa 700-600 BCE was so easily conquered by a handful of refugees from a conquered Yueh state to establish the short lived state of Au Lac in about 257 BCE.  Au Lac also occupied the Red River Delta and is considered to be Vietnamese.  It was conquered & annexed by Tried Da (in 207 BCE) who established Nam Viet in 211 BCE, which was headquartered in what is now Canton, China.

Originally posted by Sander


but if that is the only thing that is mentioned , it can suggest that the Vietnamese were a bunch of wilds.

If slave taking and piracy can label one "wild", then the Europeans, and certainly the Dutch are far wilder than the Vietnamese by any measure.  Dutch colonies were amongst the most brutal.  It's hard to swing a dead cat without hitting someone "wild", no? Wink

Originally posted by Sander


Chams had very well organized polities for more than 1000 years and were very developed in all aspects.  As far as solid evidence goes they were even SEA ´s first literate state.

1.  Vietnamese, or rather the people of the Red River Delta, had were the center of the Dong Son culture, which was the first to do bronze casting.
2.  The Vietnamese also invent wet rice cultivation.  The rice growing world grows rice by this method.
3.  Vietnamese probably learned writing from our hated Chinese conquerers prior to the founding of the Chams.
4.  Europeans who had come to Vietnam had always remarked in their now surviving journals, and in typical racist fashion, that Vietnamese were far more advanced/cultured than the people they met in surrounding countries including Chinese, Asian Indians, Khmers, Laos, Thai....  Vietnam probably had the highest literacy rate in the world according Stanley Karnow (Vietnam: A History), about 80% if memory serves me, just prior to French colonization, after which it dropped to 15%.  At this time, Japan was less than 50% literate--again, if memory serves me.  Europe and America was even less so--correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Sander


although some nationalistic touches occur here and there in the postings.
Touché Cry


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 23:58
Hm.. in some postings is a lot of nationalism and denigrating talk towards other etnicities.Confused Maybe Knights can take a look. it would be great if our new member does not call Chams wilds or tries to suggests they were, as done several times now.
 
 
Originally posted by TranHungDao

Also, the Chams had been preying upon Vietnamese during the Chinese occupation, practically from the time they were began as an organized state. Now this should inform you that if such tiny, tiny state is willing to prey upon the massive Chinese empire, then they are very much a bunch of "wilds".
 
If "geography is destiny", then the Chams were forced to be wilds by the very land they occupied: The Chams had to make a living slave trading and piracy. If you go back to Dongsonian times, or the first millenium BCE, and look at Vietnamese art, then you'll see nothing that pertains to war, despite the Red River Delta's spectacular population density. Vietnamese, prior, to being sandwich between two predators, namely the Chinese and the Chams, were basically peaceful, relatively speaking, and later learned to be violent out of necessity.
 
Jumping into a Champa topic and claiming them as wilds and "a thorn in the eyes of SE asians is .. how do we call it?Confused
 
 
I saw  lot of wrong info here. I only correct 2 of those that are really related to Chams .
Not anywhere near as much as the Chams.  The Chams lived in the Central highlands of Vietnam.  This area was by far less fertile than the Red River Delta of the northern and the Mekong Delta of the southern part of Vietnam.  Han census data shows that the northern Vietnam had some of the most densest population in the world.
 
Every normal academic study tells that Chams were primary coastal people with maritime culture ,combined with agriculture. Taylors book will probably tell the same.
 
 
Vietnamese probably learned writing from our hated Chinese conquerers prior to the founding of the Chams
.
 
Without ancient Vietnamese writing such claims make little sense. For Champa there is solid proof that they could write since at least the 300's in their own language,  as their inscriptions show . Thats why its regarded as first literate state in SEA.
 
For the rest, there is only Dai Viet/Vietnamese centred propaganda in this Champa topic and derogatory talk about Chams. This  nationalism might be more appropiate in other threads or when Vietnamese are attacked, but in this topic it makes little sense.
 
Anyhow, this thread is meant for ancient Champa , not  Vieto- centric  propaganda. Wink
 
 


Posted By: Hulegu Han
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2007 at 15:45
Originally posted by TranHungDao

The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders.  They were a thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.  Vietnam overran Champa in 1471, massacring 10's of thousands and taking as many as slaves.  Many others fled to Malaya, Cambodia and Hainan Island.  Needless to say, the relationship between the Vietnamese and the Chams was a 1000 year old blood feud.

They were tough adversaries.  Militarily, they did better against the Vietnamese than the Mongols ever did.



Military attempts againts Da Viet were made only in Khublai Khan's period as he was tempted to launch military conquest to abroad. However Vietnam have never been important for Mongols as was China during Yuan dynasty. Imagine whether they find enough treasure in Vietnam's jungle as in Persia and China?    
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 01:38
Interesting


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Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 04:31
Originally posted by Hulegu Han

Military attempts againts Da Viet were made only in Khublai Khan's period as he was tempted to launch military conquest to abroad. However Vietnam have never been important for Mongols as was China during Yuan dynasty. Imagine whether they find enough treasure in Vietnam's jungle as in Persia and China?    


Well, most of the ambitious attempts at world conquest really only happened during the time of Ghenghis thru to Kublai.  Most parts of the world which were subjected to Mongol conquest never saw the Mongols outside of this era, particularly if you don't include those conquerors who claim direct Mongol ancestry such as the Mughals, Timorlane, and so on.

FYI #1:  China annexed Vietnam for more than a 1000 years during the 1st Millenium.  China invaded Vietnam about 10 times during the 2nd Millenium, pretty much with the aim of reannexing Vietnam in each and every time.  Apparently, the Chinese wanted Dai-Viet for something.

FYI #2:  Vietnam's population as of 2007 is about 84 million, whereas Mongolia's is still less than 3 million.  This population discrepancy pretty much says it all about  the respective richness of both lands.   Vietnam is blessed with abundance in natural resources, both from an ancient persepective (fertile land, fresh and saltwater fish, copper mines for bronze casting, etc.) and a modern one (trillions of dollars worth of coal, aluminum, etc.).  Of course China's richer than Vietnam, it's a heck of a lot bigger and more populous.  But so is Mongolia, landwise anyhow.

FYI #3:  The "jungles" of Vietnam?  LOL.  Northern Vietnam is no different in climate, terrain, flora & fauna to that of southeastern China.  You've been watching way too many Vietnam War movies.

Question #1:  Did or did not the Mongols defeat southern Sung Dynasty, i.e. southern China? Dead

Question #2:  Although during the 2nd Millenium, every Chinese invasion failed, the Chinese conquered and annexed Vietnam for 1000+ years during which they put down numerous rebellions. DeadDead  This begs the question:  If the Chinese had been able to so easily defeat the Vietnamese, then why didn't the Mongols?  Cool


Originally posted by pinguin

Interesting

Oh, stop trolling!  Wink

LOL



Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 04:59
Hulegu Han,

Don't forget, the Chams also defeated the Mongols under Kublai.  This may have been slightly pre-Yuan dynasty.  That invasion was probably relatively small, like the first Mongol invasion of Vietnam, i.e. ~25,000 men only. 

The Chams twice managed to sack Hanoi.  They have the best military record against the Vietnamese, far better than the Chinese or the Mongols.  Clap

I think the Vietnamese just always underestimated them, unlike how they always regarded the overwhelmingly numerically superior invaders from China.  I think the Vietnamese fight hardest when China invades, Mongol/Yuan or otherwise.  Militarily, Dai-Viet was certainly stronger than Champa, for the southward expansion of both Dai-Viet (at the expense of Champa) and Champa (at the expense of the Khmer empire) attests to that.  However, it took Dai-Viet about 700 years to fully vanquish the Chams, or about 1500 years if included the wars that the Vietnamese fought against the Chams when Vietnam was still a part of China.

The Chams lived in mostly in central Vietnam and increasingly pushed southward into Khmer territory.  Central Vietnam is moutainous providing them with great terrain advantages when the Vietnamese attacked/counter-attacked them.  (Remember, the Chams relentlessly preyed upon so many people that they were constantly subjected to counter-attacks.  Even far away Java attacked them for they were constanly plundering Javanese merchant ships.)

By the way, many modern Vietnamese are no doubt descended from the Chams.  The northern Vietnamese look slightly different than the central and southern Vietnamese.  The Chams (central Vietnam) and the Khmers (southern Vietnam) are malays.  Champa soundly, or rather fatally, defeated in 1471 CE, but wasn't fully annexed until about 1697.  That is, the southern most remnant of the Cham kingdom lasted until 1697.




Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2008 at 18:58
Dear arafatc, we don't need ethnic hate wars here.
 
Please kindly review All Empirse Code of Conduct. This forum is the place for the objective discussion of history. Comments that can create hard feelings and useless ethnic strife are not welcomed here.
 
 


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ΣαυÏομάτης


Posted By: arafatc
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:06
You guys were deceived by the vietnamese history textbooks. The Vietnamese people took over Cham country through war. Many of them were killed by Minh Meng King (Vietnamese king) because want to erase the existence of Champa.

No hatred is mentioned. The history is history. You cannot deceived it.


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You can not deceive cham history. I am cham people where my homeland was located at SEA and the country was vanished from the world map by Vietnamese. Now we are cham are scattered all over the world.


Posted By: arafatc
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 07:09

By Dr. H. K. Poklaung

Keeping their identity as a Champa people  is the main concern of the Champa immigrants in the United States. Here in America, they have to face the problems of adjustment to a new environment which is known as a melting pot where various cultures of different groups of people are blended together in their daily activities.

Before going through the fact of how  these Champa immigrants adjust themselves to a new society in the United States, I would like to go through their history of adjustment in the past.

We know that Champa Kingdom lost its land and control to vietnam fully 1835 not in 1471 date of which Manguin believes that the alleged "disappearance"of Champa after 1471 is nothing but a myth².

 In 1594 Champa was still strong enough to help the Malay state of Johor resist Portuguese attack and Champa merchants continued to frequent the ports of Southeast Asie throughout the seventeenth century. Champa's cultural life continued to the develop autonomously, and even a distinct Champa's territory was not directly absorbed until 1834-5¹, or by one account, as late as 1883 during the French conquest².

Then since 1832, when Panduranga, the last territory of Champa, was annexed by vietnam, the people of Champa have been encountering a new situation. Their victors would like to dismantle their culture and destroy their history. In fact, the social, cultural and economical structures of Champa people still persist and quite different from those of their victors. Despite all kind of pressure, Champa people continued to preserve their cultural identity by speaking their own language, observing their own customs , wearing their traditional dress, practicing their religions. They lived in villages and social groups separately from their victors. They autonomously took care of their  internal affairs. They were reluctant to the interference of strangers (vietnamese)who attemted to settle their litigical problems.

During French rule in Indochina, the identity of Champa people was recognized and restored but unfortunately they recieved separate names as "Cham" and "Montagnards" who both in reality belonged to one nation "Nagara Champa" and to one people "ura Champa" since they have inherited the same Hindoue civilization, spoken languages which belong to the Malayo-polynesian group of languages, have the same complexion and finally stood shoulder to shoulder in the defense of Champa's territory before the invasions ennemies³

After French withdrawal in 1954, the government of Baiguar (saigon) exeted its policy of assimilation toward all ethnic minorities in Champa (southvietnam), especially ethnic Cham who were considered as dangerous elements to the current regime. Champa people were forced to wear vietnamese sounded dress, change their family name to vietnamese sounded names, give up their traditional customs and practices, speak vietnamese. Vietnamese warlords confiscated at will Champa people's land in the highlands, regrouped and locked them in "strategic hamlets", deprived them of human rights such as rights to own property, rights to move freely from one place to another, rights to speak up their being treated unjustly. Baigaur (saigon) rejected their claims on their lands, stifled their protests, suppressed their demonstrations, put them in jail, deported their leaders to a remote island (con son) and inflicted on them atrocities of all kinds.

The politics of oppression of Baigaur (saigon) toward ethnic minorities in SVN(Champa) brought about a movement of resistance from ethnic minorities, the formation of a front named "Front Unifie de Lute des Races Opprimee" or F.U.L.R.O who called the ethnic groups in SVN(Champa) to stand up and take arms to fight the vietnamese oppresors. Joining the Front were the people of Champa originally from the Highlands and the coast as well as Champa people living in Cambodia. FULRO's aims are to claim back Champa people's land, emancipate their people and restore their traditions and practices. After several successful military operations in the highlands of Indrapura (quang duc) and Buan Mathuat(ban me thuot) in 1963-64, FULRO became very soon a target of attack from Baiguar(saigon) and Hanoi. Though not obtaining all claims it had expected, FULRO succeeded anyway in getting some concessions from Baigaur(saigon) in the implementtation of an official and parastatic organization called Toan An Phong Tuc Thuong (Judiciary Court of Traditions and Customs for the Montagnards) that overlapped and vetoed the Governor's decisions concerning the Montagnard's customs and traditions.

Besides, Baigaur(saigon) agreed to create a ministery for the development of the Ethnic minorities' affairs who took care of the ethnic groups' business in SVN(Champa). But this liberal policy of Baigaur(saigon) did not last long because in 1975 SVN fell under the control of the Communists. Today, under Socialist Democratic Republic of vietnam (ie vietnamese communists) nothing guarantees that Hanoi keeps applying its liberal policy toward ethnic minorities in SVN(Champa) as promised during vietnams war.

Champa people in Cambodia, especially ethnic Cham, can not be left out of consideration since they have inherited the same cultural legacy as did their Champa brothers in SVN(Champa).The Khmer Royal Chronicles mentions a large number of Champa people refugees in Khmer Kingdom after their military defeat in Vijaya(qui nhon) in 1471 AD to the vietnamese troops of Le Thanh Ton. Those who did not want to live under vietnamese rule fled up to Mountainous areas where they spent the rest of their lives with their comrads in arms: Sdiang, Rhade, Jarai, Bahnar, Sedang...(Note that Champa was a multi ethnic nation that included different ethnic  groups such as Cham, Rhade, Jarai, Chru, R'glai, K'ho, http://www.champa.org/activities/geschichte_champa_sdiangs.htm - Sdiang , Hroy, Bahnar, Sedang...)

http://www.champa.org/activities/Bilder/champa7.jpg">cham7.jpg (46346 Byte) A second wave of migration of about five thousand Champapeoples families led by Champa Royal dignitaries to Cambodia took place in 1692, date of which the vietnamese troup took over northern part of Panduranga(phanrang). King Jayajetha III (1677-1709) of Cambodia granted them the request for a refuge. They settled in the area of Oudong-form capital of Cambodia in the province of Thbaung Khmum and of Stung Trang, at the places of Chroy Changvar, Prek Pra etc..¹

A third wave of migration of Champa people refugees to Cambodia, and probably the largest one, happened in late 1790 when Tay Son troops waged war against Nguyen Anh's followers on Champa's land, causing death to thousand of innocent Champa people.

The last wave of migration of Champa people to Cambodia, as the Khmer Royal Chronicles noted it, occured in 1835 when king of vietnam, minh mang(1820-41) suppressed and massacred mercilessly Champa rebels against his regime.

Once arrived at Cambodia, Champa people refugees built up their villages, formed their own communities which, like their compatriots in Champa's land lived separately from the rest of the population in order to preserve their languages, their practices and their religion of Islam while Khmer people are Buddhists.Champa people descendants in O'Russey today still use Champa script and practiced a deviated  Islam called Bani (meaning children in arabic²)

It is common for a minority who lives in a dominant society to react against any force or pressure that attempts to destroy its cultural identity, particularly the religion of its people. And it is because of the strong determination of preserving their traditions and values, their customs and practices, and of protecting their autonomous lives that Champa people in Cambodia rebeled against Khmer authority at the end of the sixteenth century under the rule of King Paramarja V (Cau Bana Tan) 1597-99. In the seventeenth century, muslim Champa people in Cambodia fought successfully to bring King Ramadhapati I (1642-58) to the throne. He later embraced Islam under the name of Ibrahim and married a beautiful Muslim girl in Kleang Sbeck. In 1782, Champa community once again made its name echoe in the Khmer Royal Chronicle by their attack against the local authority in Oudong.

In 1858, Champa community revolted against Khmer authority in Thbaung Khmum. Champa force was repressed, one of their leaders killed, their remnants fled to Moat Chrouk (chau doc, southwesternvietnam) and settled there¹. Under the rule of Prince Shianouk, Champa people were given "Khmer Islam", a term that does not reflect the reality of their identity.

Under the rule of Khmer Rouges (1975-79), the plight of Champa people got worse than ever. Khmer Rouges massacred Champa people's villagers, dispersed the survivors, and banned the Champa language, customs, and religion. In short, Khmer Rouges' aims were to exterminate Champa's race, destroy their culture, to do away with their identity. The politics of discrimination and overall destruction toward the Champa people under Khmer Rouges' regime caused Champa people revolts in different places such as Koh Phol, Chumnik, etc. Whose consequences were the killings en mass of Champa's villagers, the plundering of their homes².

Actually unlike Pol Pot, Heng Samrin applies a more liberal policy toward minority Champa people in Cambodia: Their religion restored, their language respoken, their values respected, their rights restated. There were 22 Muslim Champa people from Cambodia went: to perform Pilgrimage (Haj) in Mekka in 1989, and 21 others in 1990¹.

The above summary about  the history of Champa people in their continous struggle for their cultural identity highlights their attitude toward change and adjustment to new environment. Champa people, under any circumstance, do not want to lose the traditional legacy handed down to them by their ancestors.

Let us examine how Champa people immigrants adjust themselves to American society in California based on their spirit and attitude just highlighted above.

 Cambodians. They do not want to be integrated to any other community except those who are married with non-Champa spouses.

Actually there are about 2,000 Champa refugees in California. They are distinctly grouping in 4 areas: more than 300 in Sata Ana city (on Grant and S. Milmie St.); more than 300 in Fullerton city (on West Ave.) more than 300 in San Francisco city, sparsely locating; and about 100 in San Jose city. Since their number is insignificant to the vietnamese and Cambodian refugges who are of hundred thousand in California, These Champa refugees are lost or hidden identifiably. In fact, their identity of Champa peolpe has been denied since they were in refugee camps in Thailand or Malaysia. They were either of vietnamese or Cambodian nationality on their tracing cards. However their conditions are unique and distinct.

As we have seen ealier, Champa people live separately from vietnamese and Cambodian communities in SVN(Champa) and in Cambodia. Here, in California they are doing the same. They form their own communities in order to preserve their religion and cultural identity.

Though being in a very small number, Champa refugees in California do not feel out of their cirle since in public relations they still have a way out by contacting the vietnamese or Cambodian refugees. Those speak vietnamese prefer to approach the vietnameses and those who lived in Cambodia before prefer to make friend with

Campa people's adjustment to American society is very complex. It depends on their level of education, their former activisties, their religion, their age and sex. A majority of Champa refugees in the United States in general, and in California in particular, are not intellectuals.

They have hard times adjusting themselves to highly technological society of America. In Champa (svn) and Cambodia, they got a slim religious education of Islam and did not have any worldly education. Those who got a vietnamese, Cambodian and French education are able to adjust to American society after a short period of schooling. Campa students will have more chance to improve their lot than the adult and old aged Campa refugees.

Another factor that contributes to the socialization or unsocialization of Campa refugees is religion. Exept Campa refugees who are brahmanists, Campa muslims are reluctant to socialize with a non Muslim. They do not acceptany unislamic precept since they are taught that Islam is not only a religion but also a perfect way of life. It is also the reason why Champa people lead an autonomous life which is almost in isolation from the rest of people around them.

After religion, kindship plays also a very important role in the socialization of Campa people. Matrilocal and matrilineal sytem of Campa social structure is still in effect in Campa Muslim society. Campa females used to stay home to raise their children. This prevent them from going out and socializing with others. In addition to it, islamic law seclude female muslim from males. Since a majority of Campa refugees in the United States are muslims, Campa females used to visit other Campa females who are usually their parents.

Age is another important factor that help or prevent Campa refugees in their adjustment. The adult and aged adujst with difficulty to the American society. They have the feelings that they arelocked in house since they are not able to drive or to move to wherever they like. In fact, America is so wide that they do not know where to go. They feel so lonely that they want to go back to their homeland where they can chat with their relatives. Meanwhile Campa children and youth adjust easily to a new society. In school, Campa children have  fun with their classmates and socialize without difficulty. But their acculturation is a danger to their parents who are faithful to their milenary culture. Cultural conflicts between old and young generation in Champa families create a disharmonious atmosphere of misunderstanding. Children used to reject their parents' ideas which they thought are outmoded and useless. Children's attitudes and behaviors in mimicking another culture disappoint Champa parents. This situation makes Campa refugees realize that they should move close to one another and live in an autonomous community in order to maintain their religious and cultural legacy.

Despite all difficulties and disadvantages in a new land like America Champa immigrants adjust well to a new society. A small number of them becomes owners of Donut shop, of auto repair shop, auto dealer, some becom assistant teachers; one works at a law office; one runs a pharmacy; two own grocery trucks; many work in manufactures and factories.

The loss of their homeland which they cannot claim back incites  them ot hang on their religious and cultural legacy deemed to be their only source of hope and expectations. And because of the difficulties they're facing in the adjustment to a new society that Campa people stick together to their own values and traditions which they use for intellectual and spiritual uplift needed for their struggle for survival. These explain why every association estabishes by them in a host country carries unanimously the cultural and social vocation.



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You can not deceive cham history. I am cham people where my homeland was located at SEA and the country was vanished from the world map by Vietnamese. Now we are cham are scattered all over the world.


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 22-Jan-2009 at 14:47
Welcome arafatc, did you notice section VII B-11 of our CoC?

It warns against: 

11. Plagiarism, the posting of texts found elsewhere without naming either author or source. Posting your own personal commentary is encouraged when copy/pasting from another source. When pasting attempt to place the content in quotes, highlight or underline for presentation purposes. Provide a correct URL link. When referencing from books or periodicals provide the title of the reference, the author and publication date. Posts where the paste is the arguement itself, while not adhering to these requirements, will be deleted. 

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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 02:00
Originally posted by arafatc

 
The Vietnamese people took over Cham country through war.Many of them were killed by Minh Meng King (Vietnamese king )


 
 
Nope ... Tongue
 
Most Cham assimilated into modern day Vietnamese " Kinh " ethnicity.
 
Authors Peter and Sanda Simms who wrote, "Champa had been proved to be an extremely powerful and civilized nation."

There is a Vietnamese scholar named Dr. Thanh Liem Vo of Australia who wrote about the Cham people as follows:

"…the vast majority of the population in Central Vietnam are from Cham descendants but assimilated into Viet culture wholely." Listen to their accent!!

Mr Pham Van Dong ( a Cham descendant ) was Prime Minister of North Vietnam for 45 years.Former S Vietnam president Mr Nguyen Van Thieu ( also a Cham descendant).
 
They both did nothing for Chams...No one in South and Central Vietnam can say for sure they have no Cham or Cambodian blood.
 
 
 


Posted By: arafatc
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 06:37
Originally posted by Seko

Welcome arafatc, did you notice section VII B-11 of our CoC?

It warns against: 

11. Plagiarism, the posting of texts found elsewhere without naming either author or source. Posting your own personal commentary is encouraged when copy/pasting from another source. When pasting attempt to place the content in quotes, highlight or underline for presentation purposes. Provide a correct URL link. When referencing from books or periodicals provide the title of the reference, the author and publication date. Posts where the paste is the arguement itself, while not adhering to these requirements, will be deleted. 


By mailto:Info@champa-hr.org - Champa Human Rights ,
http://www.champa.org/activities/problems_of_adjustment.htm - http://www.champa.org/activities/problems_of_adjustment.htm
article by Dr. H.K. Pokplaung

Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by arafatc

 
The Vietnamese people took over Cham country through war.Many of them were killed by Minh Meng King (Vietnamese king )


 
 
Nope ... Tongue
 
Most Cham assimilated into modern day Vietnamese " Kinh " ethnicity.
 
Authors Peter and Sanda Simms who wrote, "Champa had been proved to be an extremely powerful and civilized nation."

There is a Vietnamese scholar named Dr. Thanh Liem Vo of Australia who wrote about the Cham people as follows:

"…the vast majority of the population in Central Vietnam are from Cham descendants but assimilated into Viet culture wholely." Listen to their accent!!




and the Dr. ask the Cham people to preserve their own culture because Viet people try to assimilated us to their culture. you didn't mention that. I already read all Dr. Thanh's book. I know him :).




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You can not deceive cham history. I am cham people where my homeland was located at SEA and the country was vanished from the world map by Vietnamese. Now we are cham are scattered all over the world.


Posted By: HangPC2
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 09:04
Vietnam-Champa Relations and the Malay-Islam Regional Network in the 17th–19th Centuries



Danny Wong Tze Ken


Historical relations between Vietnam and the kingdom of Champa was a very long- standing affair characterized by the gradual rise of the Vietnamese and the decline of the Chams. The relationship began as early as the second century CE, when the Chams started a kingdom called Lin-yi, covering the area between the land of the Viet people in the north and Nanchao in the south. The historical consciousness of both peoples includes wars and conflicts between the two over a period of fifteen centuries before the kingdom of Champa was incorporated under Vietnamese rule in 1693. Thereafter, the lands of the Chams were settled by Vietnamese through a series of land settlement programs introduced by the Vietnamese ruling houses.

Subjugation of the former land of Champa was incomplete, however, as Cham resistance – often armed – became the central theme of the relationship after 1693. Resistance was based on the desire to be free of Vietnamese rule and to reinstate the kingdom of Champa. Contributing to this desire was the friction that existed between Vietnamese and Chams, often at the expense of Cham rights and well being. It was not until 1835 that Cham resistance was finally broken.

This essay traces the history of Vietnam-Champa relations between 1693 and 1835, with emphasis on the Vietnamization process and the existence of a Malay-Islam regional network in Southeast Asia, based mainly in the Malay Peninsula, that contributed to Cham resistance. The last part of the essay discusses the correlation between historical and present-day Cham-Malay relations.



The Vietnamese Victory over Champa in 1693


Before 1692, Champa was trying to strengthen its position against the Vietnamese through dealings with other regional powers. The Vietnamese were represented by the Nguyen family, which had ruled southern Vietnam since 1558. Although Champa was then still an independent state, Nguyen sources such as the Tien Bien had used the term “rebellion†for all Champa military action against them since 1629 – revealing that the Nguyen perceived Champa as a tributary vassal.

In 1682, the French priest at the court of Ayudhya reported that the king of Champa had submitted voluntarily to the king of Siam. While no other information is available, the event suggests an attempt by the Chams to forge an alliance with Siam with the ultimate aim of resisting the Nguyen. During a stop at Pulo Ubi near the Gulf of Siam on 13 May 1687, William Dampier, the English traveller, met a vessel of Champa origin anchored on the eastern side of the island. The vessel carried rice and lacquer and was on its way to Malacca. All forty crew members were Chams. They carried broad swords, lances, and some guns. Dampier wrote that the Chams were actively involved in trade with the Dutch at Malacca.

 In 1692, the Chams were feeling confident enough to challenge the Vietnamese. In September, Po Saut, the king of Champa at Panduranga (Pho Hai-Phan Rang-Phan Ri region), began building fortifications and had his men attack the region of Dien Khanh (Dien Ninh prefecture and Binh Khang garrison). The campaign ended with the defeat of the Chams in the first month of 1693. Po Saut and his followers were captured seven months later; meanwhile, the Cham court was renamed Thuan Thanh Tran and occupied by Nguyen garrisons whose mission was to prevent attacks from the remnants of Cham forces.


The conquest of Champa should be understood in the context of Nam Tien (southward movement). Chinese scholar Yang Baoyun considers Champa a victim of the Nguyen’s deliberate policy of subjugation, which stemmed from the principle of “maintaining good relations with countries of distance, and attacking the neighboring countries.†Title-inscriptions found on a cannon cast in 1670 by Joao da Cruz (Jean de la Croix), the Portuguese gun founder in the service of the Nguyen, sheds light on the matter. The title-inscription on the cannon reads, “for the King and grand Lord of Cochinchina, Champa and of Cambodia.â€

A series of battles between the Chams and the Vietnamese in 1693-94 left the area in severe famine and led to the outbreak of plague. Apart from the difficulties caused by military clashes, the new Vietnamese administration was ill-prepared to govern the Chams. The main problem was its inability to establish an effective military presence. This was partly resolved when the Nguyen ruler Nguyen Phuc Chu (r. 1691-1725) appointed Po Saut’s lieutenant, Po Saktiraydaputih (or Ke-ba-tu), as the ta do doc (governor) to administer the region on behalf of the Nguyen.

Po Saktiraydaputih was given the rank of a kham-ly (civil official) in the Nguyen bureaucracy. His three sons were given the military appointments of de-doc, de-lanh, and cai-phu. The Chams were also ordered to change their costumes to those of the Han tradition, which meant the costumes of the Vietnamese.Thus began a process of Vietnamization in the Cham territories that was to continue through the eighteenth century.



The Vietnamization Process


In 1694, Nguyen Phuc Chu made Po Saktiraydaputih the native king (phien vuong) of Thuan Thanh Tran, and the latter was obliged to pay tribute to the Nguyen. Thus the tributary relationship was resumed. Nguyen Phuc Chu also returned the royal seal of Champa together with captured weapons, horses, and population. Thirty Vietnamese soldiers or Kinh Binh (soldiers of the Imperial City) were sent to protect the new Cham ruler. At this point the kingdom of Champa no longer existed as an independent entity, but had been integrated into the Nguyen domains. The Cham people continued to live in small pockets from the region of Quang Nam down to the Pho Hai-Phan Rang-Phan Ri region, where the seat of the Cham court under Po Saktiraydaputih was situated. The ruler’s palace was situated at Bal Chanar, not far from Phan Ri.

Even though the Chams continued to refer to their kingdom in the Pho Hai-Phan Rang-Phan Ri region as Panduranga, it was actually occupied territory. Vietnamese-Cham relations after 1697 under Nguyen Phuc Chu were based on central-regional relations; the role of the Cham ruler was more of a cultural and economic leader than a political one. But it was probably due to such a relationship that the Cham people were able to co-exist with the Vietnamese during the southward expansion of the Nguyen up to the early nineteenth century.

The Nguyen-Champa tributary relationship provides an insight into the attitude of the Nguyen with regard to its new status as a suzerain. On the one hand, the tribute had great economic and practical value to the Nguyen. More significantly, this self-created tributary relationship was a manifestation of the Nguyen’s achievement of an independent state ruling over its newly acquired tributary state, Champa. The Nguyen court was now the center of a system of tributary states made up of weaker states and uplanders.

However, the relationship between Po Saktiraydaputih and Nguyen Phuc Chu did not prevent friction from taking place in day-to-day affairs between the Cham people and Vietnamese settlers. Chams were also dissatisfied with the Vietnamese administration of the newly created Binh Khanh prefecture, whose jurisdiction covered the Cham territories in the Pho Hai-Phan Rang-Phan Ri (Panduranga) region. Such friction involved the jurisdiction of law enforcement, trade, trade taxes, slaves and labor contracts, and administrative boundaries. The Chams were at a disadvantage when dealing with the Vietnamese in these matters.

An agreement made in 1712 between Nguyen Phuc Chu and Po Saktiraydaputih included five provisions to regulate or govern Vietnamese-Cham relations in Binh Khang. Nguyen records mentioned that the agreement was made at the request of Po Saktiraydaputih and that Nguyen Phuc Chu “granted†a list of rules (not an agreement). It is difficult to ascertain if Po Saktiraydaputih really requested such an agreement, but clearly it was important in safeguarding the interests of the Chams, even though some of the articles were biased against them:

1. Anyone who petitioned at the Royal palace (of Po Saktiraydaputih) has to pay 20 string of cash (quan) to each of the Left-Right Tra (court official), and 10 string of cash to each of the Left-Right Phan Dung; Whereas those who petitioned at Dinh Binh Khanh have to pay 10 string of cash to the Left-Right Tra, and 2 string of cash to each of the Left-Right Phan Dung.

2. All disputes among Han people (Vietnamese) or between Vietnamese and a resident of Thuan Thanh shall be judged by the Phien Vuong (Cham King) together with a Cai ba (treasurer) and a Ky Luc (judicial official) (both Vietnamese officials); Disputes among the people of Thuan Thanh shall be judged by the Cham King.

3. The two stations of Kien-kien and O-cam shall be defended more carefully against spies. The authorities shall have no power to arrest residents of the two stations.

4. All traders who wish to enter the land of the registered barbarians (Man de) must obtain a pass from the various relevant stations.

5. All Chams from Thuan Thanh who drifted to Phien Tran (borders with Cambodia) must be well treated.



Posted By: HangPC2
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 09:08
From the agreement it is apparent that the Cham territories were well penetrated by Vietnamese settlers and that there was no distinctive demarcation between a Cham and a Vietnamese area in the Binh Khang Garrison (Thuan Thanh area). The terms of the agreement also suggest that the Nguyen had conceded a great deal of administrative authority to their sponsored Cham king. However, the great influx of foreign culture and people inevitably forced the Chams to accept the presence of the Viet people and adopt some of their ways, including wearing Vietnamese costumes and using the Vietnamese language.

Nguyen-Champa relations between 1697 and 1728 were described by Vietnamese sources as amicable. In the seventh month of 1714, for instance, after the completion of the renovation of the Thien Mu Temple in Phu Xuan, Po Saktiraydaputih brought his three sons to attend a religious celebration hosted by Nguyen Phuc Chu. Chu, a devout Buddhist, was “very pleased†with their presence. He appointed each of Po Saktiraydaputih’s sons as hau (noble in charge of a village).


Three months later, Po Saktiraydaputih requested assistance from the Nguyen for the establishment of an official court. The Tien Bien recorded how Nguyen Phuc Chu ordered a plan drawn up for the Cham ruler in which the respective positions of military and civil officials in the court were specified. Given the nature of the Nguyen chronicles, it is difficult to be sure if Po Saktiraydaputih had actually made such a request, or whether the whole system was imposed upon the Chams. Nevertheless, it represented another step towards the Vietnamization of the Chams.

Under Po Saktiraydaputih, the Cham people remained subordinate to Nguyen authority between 1700 and 1728, a period when the Nguyen were expanding into Cambodian territories. Even when the Nguyen were preoccupied with the situation in Cambodia, the Chams did not take the opportunity to free themselves. After the death of Po Saktiraydaputih in 1728, Nguyen-Champa relations underwent a shift. In that year, the Chams rose against the Vietnamese, but were swiftly defeated. This led to further Vietnamization as Vietnam-Champa relations were downgraded to those of a prefecture and subsequent Cham rulers adopted the Vietnamese family name of Nguyen.

No Cham ruler after Po Saktiraydaputih developed a close relationship with an individual Nguyen ruler such as that between Po Saktiraydaputih and Nguyen Phuc Chu. The Cham rulers continued to come from the line of Po Saktiraydaputih (of the Po Rome line), but they conducted their affairs with the prefects of Binh Khanh and Binh Thuan prefectures and rarely had direct contact with the Nguyen capital at Phu Xuan. A survey of the Cham Archives of Panduranga provides the information that post-1728 Nguyen-Champa relations were still governed by the regulations set by Nguyen Phuc Chu and Po Saktiraydaputih. This represented continuity with the pre-1728 period, but the process of Vietnamization also continued. The autonomous Champa ruler as envisaged by Nguyen Phuc Chu became little more than a local chieftain under the jurisdiction of prefecture administrators, and the position of the Chams became more and more vulnerable.


Beyond state-level relations, Champa’s own cultural identity was threatened by the large number of Vietnamese in its territories. Po Dharma describes the remnant areas of Champa as spots on a leopard skin. Not only did the Vietnamese swamp Champa, but they also began to break into the traditional economic positions of the Chams, taking over their role in the collection of jungle produce from the highlands. This included the diaarect collection of calambac (gaharu) and eaglewood and dealing directly with the uplanders for jungle produce.[20> According to Po Dharma, many Chams became indebted to the Vietnamese by borrowing money at the exorbitant interest rate of 150%. This resulted in Chams losing land, rice fields, slaves, even their children and parents.

In this state of losing their homeland and inevitable Vietnamization, the Chams began to turn towards the Malays of the peninsula for assistance.




The Chams and the Malays


Like the Malays, the Chams are categorized as Malayo-Polynesian (Austronesian). They came under Indian cultural and religious influence around the middle of the fourth century CE. The fusion between local dynamics and this foreign influence is evident even today in Cham architecture and relics found in the region between Hue and Quang Nam. The cities of Tra-kieu, Dong Duong, and My-son are fine examples.

Contrary to the findings of earlier scholars, the people of Champa were not ethnically homogenous. In fact, over the centuries, interaction took place between the Cham and uplanders from the Truong Son (Annamite mountain chain) range. Former Cham centers in the highlands such as My-son lend support to such an argument. There are new findings that suggest an incorporation of other Austronesian tribes such as the Jarai, the Chru, the Ronglais, and the Rhade into Champa. Po Rome (1627–1651), one of the most popular kings in the history of Champa, was actually of Chru descent. Po Rome’s son, Po Saut, was of Chru and Rhade parentage. There is also evidence suggesting the incorporation of non-Austronesian groups – the Stieng and the Hmong – into the Champa kingdom.


Posted By: HangPC2
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 09:10
The Sejarah Melayu (Malay Annals) mentions the presence of Chams in Malacca during the reigns of the Malay sultans. They were known to be political refugees who had arrived in Malacca after 1471. They were well received by the rulers of Malacca, who appointed some Cham noblemen to official positions in the court. In highlighting the Cham presence in Malacca, Marrison draws attention to the fact that the Chams probably contributed to the racial admixture of the Malays of the Peninsula and hence some Cham influences may have survived in Malay cultural tradition.


It is more important for our purposes to note that Malacca was a destination in the post-1471 Cham diaspora. The year 1471 marked the sack of Vijaya by the Vietnamese, the year Henri Maspero suggested as the end of Champa. Was the Cham decision to go to Malacca prompted by ethno-cultural considerations or by religion?


It was probably based more on ethno-cultural factors – as evidenced by the record of Champa-Malay relations – than on religion While the rulers of Malacca had converted to Islam in 1414, Islam had not yet made major inroads into Champa. Islam would later become important, however, in the strong connection between the Chams and the Malays. By the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, it would be the main factor in rallying Malay help for the Chams in resisting Vietnamese domination.

French scholar Pierre Yves Manguin suggests that the Chams only converted to Islam in the seventeenth century, almost three centuries after the Malays. But Islam was introduced into Champa at an earlier, undetermined date. Maspero stated that some Chams may have converted to Islam as early as the era of Sung dynasty China. Two Kufic inscriptions found in what was southern Champa are dated around 1030 CE and there is some indication of a Muslim community in Champa in the tenth century.

Existing literature and the present situation in Indochina have probably given rise to the impression that the Chams were Muslims during the life of Po Rome, who stayed in Kelantan for several years in the seventeenth century. And many Chams who had fled the Champa heartlands (central Vietnam) since 1471 and lived in Cambodia and on the Vietnam-Cambodian border had converted to Islam. The existence of this group, commonly known as Cham Baruw (New Cham), also reinforced the Islamic image of the Cham people.


Po Rome’s stay in Kelantan, however, should be seen from another angle. While Kelantan has been known as the serambi Mekah (gateway to Mecca) since the fall of Malacca in 1511, this title does not necessarily mean that religious practice was like that of the present day, when religion is paramount in the lives of the Kelantanese. Po Rome’s presence in Kelantan a few years prior to his ascension to the throne of Champa was likely an attempt to learn broadly about Malay culture, including the powerful Malay magic and the new Islamic religion. Instead of being the main concern of Po Rome, Islam was part of the wider Malay culture that he and other Chams were hoping to learn about in order to rekindle their ethnic and cultural links with the Malay world.

People-to-people relations between the Chams and the Malays were not confined to religious activities. It is likely that the Chams had been frequenting Kelantan for many centuries. Several place names there, such as Pengkalan Chepa (Cham Port) and Kampung Chepa (Cham Village), suggest close ties between the two peoples and wide acceptance on the part of the Malays. There were costume and textile names associated with Champa, for example, Tanjak Chepa (Cham Headdress), Sutra Chepa (Cham Silk), and Kain Chepa (Cham Cloth). Chepa is used to describe one type of keris (dagger). There was Padi Chepa (Cham Paddy) and Sanggul Chepa (Cham a hair Decoration). It is believed that a mosque in Kampung Laut was built by Cham sailors who frequented Kelantan. And according to the Hikayat Kelantan (Kelantan Annals), the ancestors of Long Yunus, the founder of the present-day Kelantan sultanate, originated in a state known as Kebayat Negara or Kembayat Negara, which is believed to be Champa.


Cham movement to the Malay Peninsula seemed to be frequent and even lasting. As early as the late fifteenth century, a Cham colony was established at Malacca. While most of the colony’s inhabitants were merchants, it began as a sanctuary for Cham refugees. In 1594, the king of Champa sent a military force to assist the Sultan of Johore to fight against the Portuguese in Malacca. While no explanation was given for the Cham king’s action, it is likely that it was influenced by the common Malay identity and possibly common Islamic faith of the rulers of Champa and their Malay counterparts.

According to the Babad Kelantan (Kelantan Annals), a Cham prince arrived in Kelantan in the mid-seventeenth century who was known as Nik Mustafa. After residing in Kelantan for many years, he returned to Champa and was made king, reigning with the title of Sultan Abdul Hamid. Another Cham ruler who is believed to have been Muslim was Po Rome’s son, Po Saut (1660–1692), the last ruler of independent Champa. He used the Malay title “Paduka Seri Sultan†in a letter he sent to the Dutch governor at Batavia in 1680. In 1685, he requested a copy of the Quran from Father Ferret, a French missionary serving in Champa.


The Cham classic entitled Nai Mai Mang Makah (The Princess from Kelantan) tells the story of a princess from Kelantan who was trying to convert the Cham king to Islam. The event was not dated. Po Dharma and Gerard Moussay are of the opinion that the event took place between the 1693 fall of Champa and the 1771 Tayson rebellion. Manguin suggests that Malay migration into Champa played its part in influencing the people to convert to Islam. Accordingly, the Chams were also influenced by the Malays to adhere to the Sunni Shafie sect and, like the Malays, they also kept traces of Shi’ite devotion. However, Manguin also believed that Malay migration to Champa was much more restricted, especially after Champa was absorbed by Vietnam.


Posted By: HangPC2
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 09:12
Cham Resistance and the Malay-Islamic Regional Network



French missionary sources mention that during the thirty years prior to the fall of Champa to the Nguyen in 1693, there were many Malay scribes and missionaries in the court of Champa. Their main task was to propagate the Islam faith to the Chams. It is likely that these Malays became involved in the Cham struggle against Vietnamese encroachment into Cham territories, resulting in several anti-Vietnamese movements. In this regard, the Chams clearly invoked their Malay-Islamic identity in trying to enlist help against the Vietnamese.

Between the establishment of Nguyen rule over Champa in 1693 and the final annihilation of the Cham political entity in 1835, the Chams made many attempts to break away from Vietnamese rule. These normally took the form of armed revolts. Among the major Cham revolts were those of 1693, 1728, 1796, and 1832-34.

In the case of the 1728 revolt, Po Dharma suggests that the main cause was Cham dissatisfaction with their socio-economic situation. It was through these revolts that the Chams began to rekindle their ties with the Malays and seek their help in resisting the Vietnamese.

The Cham resistance of 1796 control was led by a Malay nobleman named Tuan Phaow. He is believed to have been from Kelantan, as he told his Cham followers that he was from Mecca (Kelantan). His followers consisted mainly of Chams from Binh Thuan and from Cambodia (giving rise to the suggestion that he was from Cambodia), as well as Malays. Tuan Phaow’s resistance had a religious dimension (Jihad). In order to legitimize his actions, Tuan Phaow claimed to have been sent by God to help the Chams resist the Vietnamese. Tuan Phaow’s forces were up against Nguyen Anh (Gia Long, founder of the Nguyen Dynasty). Despite putting up strong resistance for almost two years, Tuan Phaow’s forces were cornered and defeated by the Nguyen army working in league with a pro-Nguyen Cham ruler. Tuan Phaow reportedly escaped to Mecca. This resistance movement was the first clear indication that Cham resistance had a strong Malay connection. It also shows the Islamic religious dimension becoming a common rallying call.


The 1832 Cham revolt took place as a reaction against Emperor Ming Mang’s harsh oppression of the Chams in reprisal for their support of Ming Mang’s viceroys in Gia Dinh in the south. Viceroy Le Van Duyet had refused to accept orders from Hue since 1728. After Duyet passed away in 1832, he was succeeded by his adopted son, Le Van Khoi, who continued to resist the Nguyen court. Ming Mang’s army carried out a series of oppressive activities against the Cham population in Binh Thuan to punish them for supporting Le Van Duyet and Le Van Khoi. In this conflict, the Malay-Cham connection is again evident in the form of Malay leadership. The Chams were led by a Islamic clergyman from Cambodia named Katip (Khatib) Sumat, who had spent many years studying Islam in Kelantan. Apparently, upon hearing that Champa was under attack by the Nguyen army, Katip Sumat immediately returned. Arriving in Binh Thuan in 1833, he was accompanied by a large force of Malays and Chams from Kelantan. Katip Sumat led the Chams in a series of guerrilla attacks against the Nguyen army. Apart from fighting for the survival of Champa, Katip Sumat invoked the Islamic bond in rallying Malay and Cham support for the cause. In some ways this turned the Cham struggle against the Vietnamese into a form of religious war. The Katip Sumat-led resistance, however, was defeated by the Nguyen army.

Katip Sumat’s Malay contingent did not consist only of volunteers. It is believed that they were sent by Sultan Muhamad I of Kelantan (1800-1837), who raised an army to accompany Katip Sumat to Champa. According to Po Dharma, the underlying factors were the Sultan’s acknowledgement that he and the ruler of Champa shared the same lineage (descendants of Po Rome) and of the need to preserve Islamic unity.


The defeat of Katip Sumat and other Malay-Cham resistance against the Vietnamese in 1835 marked the end of Champa as an independent or autonomous political entity. However, resistance up to that time demonstrates that the Malay-Cham relationship was very old and based first on their common Malay identity and, increasingly since the sixteenth century, on their common adherence to the Islamic faith. Malay-Cham relations continued after 1835 as well, mainly culturally and religiously.



The Twentieth-Century Legacy of Cham-Malay Linkages


The final annihilation of Champa by the Vietnamese Emperor’s troops in 1835 effectively marked the end of almost two millennia of continuous Champa existence. Since then, the last strips of Champa territories, known as Panduranga to the Chams, were fully incorporated into the Vietnamese realm. The end of the Cham royal house also effectively ended the little protection afforded the Cham population between 1693 and 1835. Unlike the previous arrangement, wherein the Chams were subjects of the Cham rulers and governed by Cham regulations and laws, the post-1835 Cham population came under direct Vietnamese rule. The provincial administrators were the highest authority, and Cham notables served as middlemen between the population and the Vietnamese rulers.

With the end of 1835 revolt, Cham links with the external world were also considerably reduced. This situation persisted until the second half of the nineteenth century, when Binh Thuan and five other provinces in the south were ceded to the French by the Nguyen at the end of the Franco-Vietnamese War of 1858-1861. The advent of French colonization of Vietnam actually ended Nguyen attempts to wipe out the Chams. The breakdown of the Nguyen administrative apparatus in the face of greater French control over the provinces saw the rekindling of ancient Cham aspirations to exert Cham identity. Efforts to re-establish traditional external linkages, including those with the Malay states, played an important role. This is evident from reports of religious teachers (ulama) from the Malay Peninsula who frequented the former land of Champa during the final years of the nineteenth century and the early decades of the twentieth. Like their predecessors, many of these visitors stayed for long durations in the former Champa as well as among the Chams in Cambodia. They married local Cham women and had children. Several of these families remained in the former Champa and in Cambodia, cementing relationships established in earlier centuries.

During the twentieth century, exchanges of visits between the Chams and the Malays became more frequent and were often family visits, though the religious factor remained strong. Until recently, Malay missionaries visited southern Vietnam to spread the Islamic faith among the Chams. In the annual international Quranic recital competition in Kuala Lumpur, representatives from Vietnam (Binh Thuan) continued to take part until the escalated Vietnam War made it impossible for them to attend.

From the end of the Vietnam War in 1975 until 1993, the Malaysian government took in no fewer than 7,000 Muslim Cham refugees from Vietnam and Cambodia, making them the only group out of the tens of thousands of Vietnamese refugees who passed through Malaysia to be accepted and settled. Though the official explanation was based on humanitarian considerations, the truth lies with Malay-Cham connections based on common Malay and Islamic identity.



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Danny Wong Tze Ken is associate professor in the Department of History, University of Malaya. This project was funded by a SEASREP-Toyota Foundation Regional Collaboration Grant.



Sources : http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue4/article_353.html - http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u ... e4/article_353.html


Posted By: arafatc
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2009 at 00:06
TranHungDao, are you vietnamese? of course you are. you history perspective sounds belong to viet history

 



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You can not deceive cham history. I am cham people where my homeland was located at SEA and the country was vanished from the world map by Vietnamese. Now we are cham are scattered all over the world.


Posted By: TranHungDao
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2009 at 02:46
Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by arafatc

 The Vietnamese people took over Cham country through war.Many of them were killed by Minh Meng King (Vietnamese king )
 
 
Nope ... Tongue
 
Most Cham assimilated into modern day Vietnamese " Kinh " ethnicity.
 
Authors Peter and Sanda Simms who wrote, "Champa had been proved to be an extremely powerful and civilized nation."

There is a Vietnamese scholar named Dr. Thanh Liem Vo of Australia who wrote about the Cham people as follows:

"…the vast majority of the population in Central Vietnam are from Cham descendants but assimilated into Viet culture wholely." Listen to their accent!!

Mr Pham Van Dong ( a Cham descendant ) was Prime Minister of North Vietnam for 45 years.Former S Vietnam president Mr Nguyen Van Thieu ( also a Cham descendant).
 
They both did nothing for Chams...No one in South and Central Vietnam can say for sure they have no Cham or Cambodian blood.


Thanks for the citation.  I kinda knew this instinctively.  In fact, I was certain of it despite never reading about it.

-----------------------------------

At any rate, arafatc, have a nice life, b'coz I'm bored with this thread.  I just had to respond because I see a lot of anti-Vietnamese spiel on the fancy-schmanchy internets all the time by Khmers.  Their logic is pretty much without exception highly convoluted and/or breathtakingly hypocritical.  Normally I don't bother to respond, but I felt compelled this time, since you threw down the gauntlet.

Vietnam can definitely be criticized for its current domination of both Laos and Cambodia, but the criticism needs to be fact-based, taken in context,  and non-hypocritical.

Later bro.  Wink


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2009 at 10:16
Hi TranHungDao,
your nick name is taken from a name of a hero VietNamese General in Tran Dynasty, but you have made so many rubbish statements and try to distort history itself. Could you tell me when is Vietnamese army 've got a courage to invade China territory? If you read the whole Vietnamese history. Vietnam army just resistant and and expel China from Vietnam land. And because of pressure from china in the North Vietnam try to survise by expand land to the South, i.e invaded Champa Kingdom. And do you know why Vietnam can beat Champa at that time. i think you understand well the Huyen Tran princess & Che Man King marriage, in which Tran Nhan Tong purposely settle an marriage for political purpose.

About Polpot genocide ended by Vietnam, after that why Vietnam troop take such over 10 years to withdraw if vietnam did not intent govern Indochina. your knowledge is like a flog in the well. Don't forget all your excuses for leveling Champa will be used by China to eleminate Vietnam in the future. Hoang Sa & Truong Sa is a proper examples.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 13:59
Some very interesting comments, mostly cuts and pastes, on Champa on this thread. And, one expects the usual flame wars. Just back from several months in Vietnam, where I spent a few weeks teaching English in Dalat.

While there, I visited the Lam Dong provincial history (Bao Tang Lam Dong) museum, which is actually well worth the 4,000 (25 cents) dong entry fee. Most provincial "museums" in Vietnam have nothing to do with history, and merely regurgitate the standard "Uncle Ho as Venerable Saint" fare. The Lam Dong museum has its Uncle Ho section, but it also has displays well worth seeing. First, there are good exhibits on the local indigenous peoples (principally Koho and Ma), even to the point of showing how they really dressed. Loincloths are shown with the back looking like sumo wrestler garb, and the flaps worn to the front and front side. Photographs and mannequins show (tastefully) that the women often went topless. There are tribal musical instruments, pottery, baskets, and weavings.  And, up at the edge of the museum compound, they have taken the trouble to construct small Koho and Ma houses. Far superior to anything in the Buon Me Thuot and Pleiku museums. Second, they have included some pieces from the Hindu temples unearthed at Cat Tien, to include its stone lintel, a ganesh figure, and a model of the linga-yoni stone, as well as a few pieces of gold offerings. The site is dated as 700 AD, and the museum states that whether it is a Cham site, or earlier Oc Eo site, is still being determined. Third, there is a collection of Chinese and other pottery that evidence the areas link's to both the Cham and Nguyen Lord periods. The underlying message is that the peoples of Lam Dong had links, and interaction with, the Oc Eo cultures, and the Cham at Panduranga and Kauthara.

In Dalat city, I found a bookstore that had a book on Cham cultural ceremonies entitled "Le Hoi Chuyen Mua Cua Nguoi Cham" by a "PGS. TS.  Ngo Van Doanh". Professor Doanh has photographs and descriptions of Cham ceremonies both in Vietnam, and other sites of the Cham disapora. That the Vietnamese even published such a book is a positive sign. Though I doubt that many Kinh have purchased it, it is a step forward.

Finally, on a trip to a local tourist site, Doi Mong Mo, with my wife's (Vietnamese) family, we ran into a group of about 20 Cham who had come up from Phan Rang. Of interest, they were a family group that included both Cham Bani (muslim) and Cham Balamboom (Hindu). The older women had headscarves, but the younger moslem women were wearing hair nets which made them look quite attractive. None of the women were obviously secluded, as all showed their faces. One of the older men was a veteran of the 4th Company of the 55th (Nha Trang) MIKE Force, a parachute assault unit of the Vietnam War that served with the 5th Special Forces Group. I remembered the company, as all its members wore a green neck scarf with the sword and Arabic writing as depicted on the Saudi flag. My own unit, which included Raglai tribesmen, had been based in nearby Dien Khanh. The point here is that these Cham had the money and time to come up to Dalat as tourists. There was a Koho band which sang a combination of Vietnamese and Koho songs, and at one point all the male Cham in the audience stood up and began singing and cheering. Then, several of their young men and women took the microphone to deliver a song in Cham.

This brings me to my final point. Having grown up in both French and Spanish speaking regions of the U.S., I long ago noted that those who best learned English ended up with better jobs and careers. Those who did not, remained at the economic fringes of U.S. society. It's nice to maintain positive cultural values, but cultures, like people themselves, develop and either move on or fade away. The Rhade longhouses of my earlier Vietnam experience have disappeared, outlawed after 1975 to break up the large matriarchal families and encourage nuclear families, thereby undercutting the importance of the clans. FULRO, once with strong support in the Highlands, has been rendered irrevelant by a wave of Kinh immigrants who have moved in to exploit the land adjacent to roads and highways, making Vietnam the world's #2 coffee producer in the process.  (Buon Ma Thuot, long the Rhade tribal capital, is now a city of 300,000, the great majority Vietnamese.) For the Highland Cham, and this historically included both Malayo-Polynesian as well as some Mon-Khmer peoples, their best course of action is to learn Vietnamese well, and be able to function within Vietnamese society. That will, of course, lead to eventual absorbtion, the same process begun by the Nguyen lords, but by the same token, they will add to making the Vietnamese more "Vietnamese". Some posters have already noted the differences between Bac, Trung, and Nam Viet, with many Trung showing signs of partial Cham ancestry. Genetic testing can now confirm such. Development is changing Vietnam. The process may be slower than some would desire, and anti-Dega and anti-Khmer prejudice is common in some rural areas. I have a strong distaste for the current government, but for all their faults, which are legion, they do push a vision of Vietnam that sees all of Vietnam's "ethnic minorities" as Vietnamese. And, they have made serious efforts to bring modern amenities to remote tribal areas. As Vietnam's economy continues to grow, it is in the best interests of the so-called "ethnic minorities" to be a part of that growth. At the same time, the government would do better to drop the "ethnic minority" term altogether, and adopt the term "Dega". There is no reason that a modern Vietnam cannot adopt a few non-Kinh terms into its language. Likewise, while books on the Cham or tribal customary law (such as Ngo Duc Thinh's "Nhung Mang Mau Van Hoa Tay Nguyen") are a step forward, one wonders why there are no Viet-Ede, Viet-Jarai, Viet-Koho, or Viet-Cham dictionaries in print. Such -Englisn and -French dictionaries or word lists are occasionally printed in Thailand!  But asking for one in any book store in Pleiku, Buon Me thout, or Dalat still elicits less than polite responses. 


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2009 at 17:52
Dear lirelou,
 
Welcome to AE and thanks for your very interesting input.


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ΣαυÏομάτης


Posted By: HangPC2
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 05:28
Kelantanese







Cham





Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2009 at 05:41
Most of the men in east coast Malaysia (Kelantan & Terengganu) use to tie the cloth around their heads like that.. and usually they are fishermen not working in Paddy field like the Cham.

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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 04:27
Chams are/were Malay. The same type of seafaring Malay as those still living in Patani in southern Thailand, and Kelantan and Terengganu in Penisular Malaysia. As were those that once lived in the ancient Cambodian kingdom of Funan. The peninsular-coastal Malay belt, or crescent, in the early centuries AD, formed a contiguous corridor from Kedah, Pahang, Terengganu and Kelantan in the Malay Peninsula, through Patani and Negara Seri Dharmaraja (Nakhon Si Thammarat) in today's Thailand, through Funan in today's southern Cambodia, through to Champa in today's central and southern Vietnam.
 
There were thus already 3 - 4 formal Malay realms on the SEA mainland around the 100 - 200 AD period. The Langkasukan confederation, roughly grouping Kedah, Patani, Kelantan, Terengganu and perhaps northern Pahang in the Malay Peninsula; (possibly) Funan; and Champa.
 
That time, of course, there were no religious barriers yet dividing the Malays on one side, and the Mons and Khmers on the other, as do exist today, and they mixed and interbred freely between them.
 
The jury is still out, whether Malays ruled as an elite minority aristocracy then got defeated, in Funan, which had a mixed, Mon-Khmer-Malay citizenry, or whether they were indeed always submissive to the more numerous native Khmers there.
 
The terms Polynesian & Austronesian are merely recent western inventions unknown to those ancient mainlandic Malays. All they knew was that they were all Malay people.
 
They can still converse almost completely with one another using their own respective Malay dialects. There is still much common lexicon between the local Malay dialects of Patani-Kelantan-Terengganu Malays and Cham Malays. One example I can recall off-hand is 'chak' (pronounced 'chok') for a hoe, whereas Malays further south and west in the Malay Peninsula call the hoe a 'changkul' (today spelt 'cangkul').


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 20:45
Originally posted by TranHungDao

The Chams were a race of pirates and slave traders.  They were a thorn in the side of the Vietnamese, Khmers and even the Thais.  Vietnam overran Champa in 1471, massacring 10's of thousands and taking as many as slaves.  Many others fled to Malaya, Cambodia and Hainan Island.  Needless to say, the relationship between the Vietnamese and the Chams was a 1000 year old blood feud.

They were tough adversaries.  Militarily, they did better against the Vietnamese than the Mongols ever did.
Now, I'm not so sure if your post is a statement of derision or one of admiration. It seems to have contained both elements.Wink
 
As for the piracy, I think many, if not most, tribes or nations which had any significant access to the sea would have had pirates among them, at one time or other in their history. Vikings and Norsemen; North African Barbary; Arabs; Mycaenian Greeks; mediaeval Spaniards, Portuguese and Anglo-Saxons; Chinese and Japanese; Javanese and Buginese Indonesians; the Lanun Malays; Indians; Khmer Cambodians; the Siamese etc. etc. etc. The Cham were just one among many.
 
That doesn't mean the pirates were always sanctioned by their formal governments, or their general populace. A few grains of sand doesn't make a coast. A few drops of water doesn't make an ocean.
 
Maybe Viets didn't get around to piracy because their kingdom was so small and fenced in on all sides at first, their coastline so insignificantly short,Tongue before they conquered formerly Cham and Khmer lands.
 
Chams were a thorn in the side of Viets? After you guys had grabbed all their land, and (in your own words) massacred 10's of thousands of their people, you mean? Wow! I believe it'd be more correct to say that the Viets were a thorn in the side of the Cham. The thorn that eventually destroyed the entire flesh.Cry


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 21:18
  Three points. First, Panduranga continued to exist as a vassal state of the Nguyen Lords until 1832, when emperor Minh Mang terminated his ancestors agreement with the Cham and took steps to expell many of them. 'Panduranga' the vassal state covered the Central Vietnamese coast from Nha Trang (former Kauthara) down through Phan Rang and Phan Thiet. Essentially, this meant that the coast was left to the Cham, while the Vietnamese filled in the narrow valleys of the interior. Thus Khanh Hoa and Dien Khanh predate modern Nha Trang, which was founded by Yersin.

Second, the Cham were hardly occasional pirates. But then, they were also hardly the only pirates on the South China Sea. One disadvantage to the fractured political unity of the Malay peoples was that piracy against others, to include other Malay states, was considered fair play. The French School of the Far East (EFEO) has surveys of the wide varieties of watercraft used in Vietnam that notes both Cham and Chinese maritime architectural models. I would suggest that many Cham were simply absorbed into the Central Vietnamese population, though a survey of Cham overseas communities was recently published in Vietnam. (AFAIK, Vietnamese only - No English so far)

Finally, the Cham were not the only Malays of Indochina. The Jarai, Rhade, and Raglai were racially akin to the Cham (Malayo-Polynesians in the scientific term of the day) and considered by some to be 'Upland Cham'.  In fact, the name used for the Central Highlands by the United Front for the Struggle of Oppressed Races was "The High Dega Plateaus of Champa" (Source: Letter, President Y-Bham Enoul, No. 346-FLC, 9 August 1965, published in "Tiger Men", Barry Petersen, p. 153). 


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 21:44
I have a Cham friend, a Cambodian citizen, now holding a mid-level post in the Cambodian government. He says, that the Cham in Vietnam have little freedom of choice. Little empowerment. Forced assimilation. 'Highly oppressed'Cry would be the sum inference.
 
But Cambodian Cham, he says, are now beginning to enjoy greater rights and empowerment, as a minority, under the new post-Khmer Rouge administration.


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 06:28
Highly oppressed is overstatement. They can practice their religion, whether Muslim or Hindu, they can travel in country without special permits, and they can live in traditional houses and wear traditional clothing. They are no more oppressed by the government than anyone else, but they are likely more aware of the limitations. They are certainly not as carefully watched as the Jarai Christians are, but you can be sure that the Cham Bani are being carefully monitored for signs of fundamentalism. They are certainly subject to the same petty Vietnamese racism that all Central and Southern minorities are, but this has more to do with Vietnamese culture and the aftermath of Minh Mang's expulsion or assimilation policies. One of the few good things I will ever say about this government is that such racism is not government policy, but reflects the government's inability to overcome long held cultural attitudes.  As for assimilation, that is not necessarily a bad thing. At present, Vietnam is a far more stable and economically viable country than Cambodia. 

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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 06:28
'Forced assimilation is not a necessarily a bad thing'.
 
Yeah, right.
 
But somehow, for some funny reason, your ancient ancestors spent 1,000 years resisting assimilation by Chinese. Ummm ...Sleepy


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 09-Apr-2010 at 09:03
Shield, I didn't say 'forced'. That's your choice of words.  Cung, phai noi toi khong mot nguoi viet. Toi la nguoi My. Also, I should say that I am not a Viet. I am an Irish-Franco-American who actually fought in the war with FULRO affiliated troops, and went to an occasional celebration with a Cham parachute company based in Nha Trang.

My Vietnamese commander in the Pleiku MIKE Force was Major Ton That Thuan. If you don't recognize the name 'Ton That', it is a branch of the Nguyen royal family. Major Thuan's physical features were very Malay, as are many Central Vietnamese (He was from Hue. More than likely, a Cham was an ancestor on the maternal side.) Unlike some Asian governments (such as the Koreans), the government of Vietnam is quite willing to acknowledge that modern Vietnamese are the genetic and cultural amalgam of earlier peoples, to include the Cham. Yes, it would have been nice if Minh Mang had never ended Panduranga, and it continued to exist today as a self-governed entity within Vietnam, but that was never really an option. There is simply no way that any minority groups could have held their territories once the war was ended and the population rate began to take off. Ninety million VIetnamese engaged primarily in agriculture will move into whatever space is needed.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Apr-2010 at 17:58

I have no idea Lierlou is Vietnamese or not but Lirelou have learn the Vietnamese history from pro Vietnamese books too much then. After that you start to objectively analyse the part which you can not find in these books. If assmilation is good thing, let's ask ourself, Palestine is happy accept Israel assimilation or Israel welcome palestine assimilation. Or if you are irish origin. Do you welcome British assimilation or not? So most of the assimlation in this world is happend by FORCE for sure.

Cham ethnic as well as all other minority ethnic inside Vietnam are not equal to "Kinh" ethnic (the majority ethnic in Vietnam) especially in political practice. It's hard to find any Cham who have a position in the goverment, the highest they could have is the head of their own Cham village consist of maximum 100 households. But Cham community in Cambodia are doing better in this point. Combodia goverment have given chances for them.

If Lirelou said Vietnam economy is better than Cambodia. Why don't we compare with other regional nation like Singapore, Malaysia, even with Thailand. Vietnam economy is still 100 years behind Singapore, 50 years behind Malaysia or 30 years behind Thailand.



Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 02:52
Originally posted by unclesam2009

Cham ethnic as well as all other minority ethnic inside Vietnam are not equal to "Kinh" ethnic (the majority ethnic in Vietnam) especially in political practice. It's hard to find any Cham who have a position in the goverment, the highest they could have is the head of their own Cham village consist of maximum 100 households. But Cham community in Cambodia are doing better in this point. Combodia goverment have given chances for them.
That's more or less like the type of story I've herd from Cham friends, plus the personal impression I get from my few visits to Cambodia and Vietnam.
 
Could be because to the Viet, the Cham were a former ancient arch enemy. Whereas to the Khmer Cambodians, the Cham were simply occassional rivals.


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History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: papen
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 05:22
I read TranHungDao's post and even for me, as a Vietnamese. I feel pretty offended. Pirates and slave traders were practiced by every countries in ancient time, not just Champa.

Perhaps this is why the Vietnamese state of Van Lang, circa 700-600 BCE was so easily conquered by a handful of refugees from a conquered Yueh state to establish the short lived state of Au Lac in about 257 BCE.  Au Lac also occupied the Red River Delta and is considered to be Vietnamese.  It was conquered & annexed by Tried Da (in 207 BCE) who established Nam Viet in 211 BCE, which was headquartered in what is now Canton, China.


This is so wrong. The name Yue (or Yuet in Cantonese, no such thing as yueh) is a given name of the Qin kingdom (china) to any tribes in the South of China. They were not Yue refugees or whatever. Van Lang was a country of Lạc people (Luo Yue), and Âu Lạc (Ou Luo) was formed after the tribe of An Duong Vuong won the war against Hung Vuong and merged both tribes Âu Việt Ou Yue and Lạc Việt Luo Yue. That's why the country named Âu Lạc. Even for the kingdom Nan Yue. I don't think it's a kingdom of Han people. When Zhou Tuon marched to southern China, he only brang 200.000+ Han soldiers with him. And Nan Yue kingdom was big, his Han soldiers only took around 20-30% of the population. So saying the Yue refugee invaded Viet country because of Han people was wrong. Zhou Tuo needed Yue people to form his own kingdom Nan Yue as China changed a new king and he didn't want to follow the new emperor. He was treated as a traitor for not following the new emperor, and so his soldiers. They were stucked in the South and had no choice but to form the kingdom Nan Yue.

1.  Vietnamese, or rather the people of the Red River Delta, had were the center of the Dong Son culture, which was the first to do bronze casting.
2.  The Vietnamese also invent wet rice cultivation.  The rice growing world grows rice by this method.

There's no source say that the people of Dong Son culture was the 1st to do bronze casting.
Vietnamese didn't invent wet rice cultivation. According to my research in both China and Vietnam's history. The 1st king of Vietnam was Hung Vuong was the son of Lac Long Quan, and Lac Long Quan was the 2nd/3rd generation of Shen Nong (Cultivation God of China). Wet rice cultivation was in the whole southern china + SEA in almost the same time.

Military attempts againts Da Viet were made only in Khublai Khan's period as he was tempted to launch military conquest to abroad. However Vietnam have never been important for Mongols as was China during Yuan dynasty. Imagine whether they find enough treasure in Vietnam's jungle as in Persia and China?

In the whole history, China invaded Vietnam 26 times. As Vietnam was a part of Nan Yue and as well a province of China for almost 1000 years, and so China always though that Vietnam was a part of China.

Well, from what TranHungDao wrote, I could see there's really a lack of Chinese History. In ancient time, China was not always a united country. Vietnam was independent from Southern Han. And the Mongo who attacked Vietnam was not Khublain Khan but his son who wanted to show off, also there's a deadline's pressure of conquering the South.

And do you know why Vietnam can beat Champa at that time. i think you understand well the Huyen Tran princess & Che Man King marriage, in which Tran Nhan Tong purposely settle an marriage for political purpose.

not only that, but the most importance was weapon. Vietnam fighted with China a lot, as well as Champa attacked us (there's a time Cham army almost reached Viet capital), we couldn't conquer Champa not until we had guns.

Back to the Cham's problem. In my opinion, I think it's the same as America Indian in America. As I know, many of Cham people in Vietnam still kept their culture as well as speak their language (learn Vietnamese as 2nd language) but they're still poor as they only want to live in their Cham community. They don't want to adapt. I studied in Vietnam and I know Vietnam's education give extra credits to minor ethic students. But most of them dropped out schools to help their families or just didn't want to study.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2010 at 10:28
A few points, Papen.

First, not all Chinese 'invasions' were true invasions. Since the King of Vietnam was a vassal of the Chinese emperor, he had the right to call upon China for military assistance when threatened by rebellion. This happened several times during the Trinh-Nguyen period, as well as during the Tay Son rebellion. (That is also true for Korea, another vassal of China.) That the Chinese viewed Vietnam as both a friendly state and ally is amply demonstrated by the numbers of Ming Chinese refugees who rfeceived permission to settle in Vietnam (and Cambodia). Mac Cu'u comes to mind, as his settlement of Southern Cambodia was what awakened Kinh interest in the Mekong Delta.

Second, regarding the Cham, they were not always 'hereditary enemies" of Vietnam. The Nguyen Lordsn allowed Panduranga to survive long after 1471. It was only after the Nguyen dynasty was established, and Minh Mang came to the throne, that the Cham were regarded as an emeny that had to be expelled or assimilated. All of Vietnam's assimilation projects point back to Minh Mang. The Nguyen Lords were quite happy with a multi-ethnic state.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: papen
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 02:38
Well. From what I read, China really sent army over to attack. Of course there's a possibility that some of them might not be a real invasion. Besides, as you said Vietnamese King had the right to call upon China's military assistance, it's true. However, if my Vietnamese history was not wrong, Vietnamese tried never ask Chinese for help (not until fighting the French and South Vietnam), even when Vietnamese had the civil war between Trinh-Nguyen (Äằng Trong - Äằng Ngoài). As Vietnam was a new country after she broke free from China in 938. Even until the Trinh Nguyen war (1627), it's not a peaceful country (Mongol invasion (Yuan dynasty) from 1257-1288, Champa 1377-1383, occupation 1407,etc). The reason Vietnam became a vassal state of China because Vietnam couldn't deal with both China and Champa at the same time. In the other hand, China also had it's own civil wars to deal with. However, whenever China gained back it's power, it always tried to claim back Vietnam. For example the invasion of Ming dynasty in 1407. Ming sent troops under the name of helping Vietnam, but then later it annexed Vietnam with Ming Empire with the reason that Vietnam had no king for the throne.



As you can see in the map, many times Vietnam was a province of China. That's the reason why many Vietanamese people now is worrying about the Paracel Islands. As I know, Vietnam won't never give up on the islands, but then if Vietnam keep resisting China, it could use that reason to invade Vietnam 1 more time like what it did in the past.

I agree with you on the point Cham was not always a hereditary enemies. I remember there's a mass immigration of Cham people during Minh Mang time. During Nguyen time, only the royal Cham families ran away.


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2010 at 13:43
Please notice that I never said that China "never" invaded Vietnam. I merely pointed out that many so called "Chinese invasions" were in fact military expeditions to assist the King of Vietnam based upon his request for such assistance. I suspect that the nationalist view of Chinese invasions has something to do with Minh Mang's ordered rewrite of all the official court histories, but Professor Li Tana would be the expert there.

As for the paracels, no less than five countries claim them. That is a mess that only some international tribunal can sort out. Otherwise, the side with the largest navy will prevail. My gut feeling is that if first discovery and exploration is the deciding factor, then the Malay countries have the stronger claim (Indo., Malaysia, and the Philippines) as they have the longest tradition of sea-faring inthe region. Assuming that someone cannot tie the people who inhabited Oc Eo to modern Vietnam. 


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì


Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2010 at 23:10
Originally posted by papen

There's no source say that the people of Dong Son culture was the 1st to do bronze casting.
.......
 
 
 
 
Right. The old Ban Chiang people (who lived in whats now Thailand) were working earlier (ca 2000 BC or even earlier) with bronze than the  Dong Son people (ca 700 BC )
 
Originally posted by papen


Vietnam fighted with China a lot, as well as Champa attacked us (there's a time Cham army almost reached Viet capital), we couldn't conquer Champa not until we had guns.
...

  
Whats meant with “almost reached... †?
The Chams, under their king Che Bong Nga destroyed the  Viet capital Thang Long at least twice (actually thrice according some scholars). The 1371 and 1376 destructions are well documented.
Georges Maspero’s classic work Le Royaume du Champa ( 1928; English version 2002) cites the old Vietnamese chronicles themselves on this issue. They describe the events related to the Cham conquests of the capital, the pillaging, the clashes etc.
 
 
Star


Posted By: lirelou
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2010 at 10:14
And after the defeat of Champa, numbers of Cham prisoners were re-settled in the North around Thanh Long, which suggests that any genetic survey of the Red River Delta should pick up some traces of Cham markers in modern Vietnamese. It may at times have been an unhappy experience for the minorities, but from the Nguyen Lords forward, all Vietnamese states have eschewed the 'pure race' nationalism that one finds in Japan and Korea. Vietnam is willing to recognize minorities as a part of the nation and its historical experiences, though under Ming Mang's rule and Ngo Dien Diem's government, the authoritarian push for forced assimilation earned both the opposition and distrust of minority populations.


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Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì



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