Move over Egypt, Europe’s pyramids are older and bigger!
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: General World History
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Topic: Move over Egypt, Europe’s pyramids are older and bigger!
Posted By: Mila
Subject: Move over Egypt, Europe’s pyramids are older and bigger!
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 17:31
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HUGE NEWS! The village of Visoko, near Sarajevo, has received official confirmation from the United Nations of something the locals have long suspected - that the hill around which their village was built is in fact man made. Long associated with the ancient Bosnian religion of the Sun God, Visoko's confirmed pyramid was larger than the Grand Pyramid at Giza when first built and carbon dating suggests far older. There are several other suspected pyramids in the immediate vicinity which have yet to be confirmed. "First European Pyramid: Bosnian Sun Pyramid":       Other nearby sites:  This is not a joke, I'll post more information as soon as I can find some! ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 17:34
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those plans make it look VERY suspiciously like a Mesoamerican pyramid. ANd even if its real it doesnt top the biggest oldest pyramid of them all in China. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 17:38
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^ I don't think it tops much in it's current state, and the plans are
only a hypothesis - but for Europe, it's a huge deal. And for Bosnia,
it's an enormous deal. Croats and Serbs have long insisted that Bosnian pagans were an isolated, simple people - despite the fact that we are the only ones with any pre-medieval relics in this area. Croatia and Serbia have nothing that predate ancient Bosniak tombstones, and so on. There's also talk this could finally be the ancient city of VrhBosna, mentioned in the records of several ancient empires but whose location has never been proven. It's currently suspected the Roman settlement of Imunisipia (Ilidza district, Sarajevo) is built on top of the site of VrhBosna (High Bosnia) but no one knows for sure. At the very least, it will prove to be an important tourist attraction and national symbol! ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 17:41
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From the BBC News: Europe's first pyramid? Bosnia's leading Muslim daily Dnevni Avaz writes excitedly about "a sensational discovery" of "the first European pyramid" in the central town of Visoko, just north of Sarajevo. Excavations at a hill site above the town have been going on for several months and initial analyses "have confirmed the original claim that this is Europe's first pyramid and a monumental building, similar in dimensions to the Egyptian pyramids." "The pyramid is 100 metres high and there is evidence that it contains rooms and a monumental causeway ... The plateau is built of stone blocks, which indicates the presence at the time of a highly developed civilisation," the daily explains. "Archaeological excavations near the surface have uncovered a part of a wall and fragments of steps," it reveals. "Visocica hill could not have been shaped like this
by nature," geologist Nada Nukic tells the daily. "This is already far
too more than we have anticipated, but we expect a lot more from
further analysis," she concludes. **** Doesn't look good that our media is hyping the claims, but we'll see. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 18:01
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"The pyramid predates the arrival of Slavs to this region so it is not
reasonable to suggest it is in any way a reflection of the culture of
Bosnia's peoples, whom have lived in this area only since the fifth and
sixth century. But this does not change the nature and certainly not
the importance of our discovery. What we are having here is a pyramid,
constructed by man, that is at least 100 meters high, and at least
3,500 years old. Whether it is the Illyrians, the Greeks, the Egyptians
does not matter. Our country is host to this important site and we will
work to determine exactly what is it and to prepare it for the world."
- Nada Nurkic
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 18:12
You shouldn't think that your people arrived to Bosnia in the 7th century: Slavs arrived there but most of the original people surely remained as well. The resulting population is a mixture and most likely basically what existed before slavization. You are the descendants of the people who built it, don't have doubts about it, even if then they called themselves Dalmatians or whatever. ------------- 
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Jalisco Lancer
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 18:16
Nah...My ancestors built a flying ship and traveled to Europe to gave them the instructions how to build a Teotihuacan Sun Pyramid Fashion 
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 18:35
To a limited extent, yes.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosniaks: Genetic analysis of indigenousnessIn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005" title="2005 - 2005 various South European medical schools and institutions specializing in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics" title="Genetics - genetics did an analysis of the variation at 28 Y-chromosome biaUelic markers among a sample of males from throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina, relatively equally split among all three major ethnic groups. The most notable find was the high frequency of the "Paleolithic European" halo group (Hg) I; specifically its sub-halo group I-P37. Indicative of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race" title="Dinaric race - Dinarics , the sub-halo group had a frequency of 71% among Bosnian Croats, 44% among Bosniaks, and 31% among Bosnian Serbs. A similar study in Croatia found that Croatian Croats had a frequency of about 45%, but that among them Croats in Dalmatia had a particularly high frequency (around two thirds). The high frequency of I-P37 among Croats in Bosnia and Dalmatia can be explained by the fact that Catholics in those regions historically mixed very little with other people. The smaller frequency among Croats in Croatia and Bosniaks is probably due to the various foreigners that were assimilated over the years. The study mentioned above confirmed that the Bosniak gene pool was impacted by foreigners from various regions in the Ottoman Empire more so than that of the other two groups, but not in a significant amount overall. It must be taken into account that out of the study's Bosniak subjects none came from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosanska_Krajina" title="Bosanska Krajina - Bosanska Krajina . Based on historical factors associated with the region, it could be expected that the inclusion of Bosniak subjects from this regions would have raised the frequency of I-P37 and Slav-associated sub-halo groups while lowering the frequency of Mediterranean related sub-halo groups among Bosniaks overall. Future genetic studies will hopefully shed more light on these issues. As it stands, current studies have shown that, genetically, Bosniaks are largely indigenous and have a large fraction of the ancient gene pool distinctive for the Balkan area. ------------- |
Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 19:14
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That's really fascinating. Is it completely made out of stone or are some parts just packed in dirt? ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 19:34
and even before Teotihuacan was built. They were even able to time travel! ------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 20:29
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What's the dating of the pyramid, if any? I've read above that it is
"at least 3,500 years old". 1500 BCE is not older than the Egyptian
pyramids of Gizah, which were built around 2700-2500 BCE, nor that of
Saqqarah, which is even older. Anyhow it is a great and surprising discovery and I'm eager that you post some links. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 21:56
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Have there been archeological surveys on it that detail the actual structure? Or is it just a man made mound? If its the latter there are tons of them all over Europe and beyond. -------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 22:03
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^ Don't know yet. They know it has internal passages, and they suspect it has internal rooms.
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 22:16
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Its an intresting question though, considering the sudden explosion of 'pyramids found in x' stories. At would point does a burial mound, however symetricaly constructed, become a 'pyramid' as generaly percieved in the imaginations of people? Not that i'm trying to be a spoil sport, this is indeed intresting, but it does seem that almost anything can become a pyramid these days, i guess Brits should join the vibe and start claiming that their more intresting burial mounds and barrows are infact pyramids too. Anything for those tourist dollars ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 22:56
^ Hehehe. No, it's okay, really. I don't care what it is as long as
it's respected and brings our country a little something good. I mean,
it could be a popular tourist mound...or a pyramid that opens the gates of hell...  It's an interesting question. I'd say size, construction methods, purpose, possibly shape? A large structure made of individual blocks of stone built into a triangular shape I'd call a pyramid. A heap of soil and rocks piled up by man I'd call a mound. Where one becomes the other, beats me. ------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:09
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It tend to agree with you on the mound vs pyramid front, but, bigger
mounds have underlying structures that help to hold the earth and rocks
in place, and those structures are, well, pyramid like.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:16
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Reminds me a lot of pyramids in China http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidchina.html - http://www.crystalinks.com/pyramidchina.html http://www.trilobia.com/pyramids.htm - http://www.trilobia.com/pyramids.htm
------------- What is history but a fable agreed upon? Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi 
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:31
From what I've seen so far of the Bosnian Sun Pyramid - I don't know if they're only showing what they've uncovered so far, but they seem to depict just the top of the mountain, one full side in the front, and half of both sides - like it's built into an already-existing mountain. But none of what they've said about it suggests this, so...? ------------- |
Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:31
I know the pyramids in Egypt were built using slave workers who really were treated badly and their fatality rate was so high from exhaustion and heat. I don't know how the pyramids in Mexico or the recent one in Bosnia were built, but I don't think it will be far from using cheap (if it wasn't free slave workers) labors. I just cannot imagine them hiring locals with pay checks to do that killing job  ------------- D.J. Kaufman Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 23:51
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Actualy, the early Pyramids in Egypt were built with semi-volentary
labour, basicly seasonal conscripted labour, who weren't slaves. Some of hte later pyramids were made with slaves though, as well as the other tombs. ------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 09:36
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Yes, it's a typical misconception that slavery was massive in Egypt,
when it actually wasn't, at least in the early periods. Monumental
architecture doesn't need slave labour but what needs is some kind of
(maybe religious) motivation and strong social organization to get
hundreds or thousands of people to work in such monuments. It also
needs relative advanced science/technology, particularly
architecture.
-------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 11:09
I think it is no more than a man-made mound as you said. Just like the ones in Anatolia, which were builded by the Phrygians. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 12:24
Well, they already know it's built from stone blocks and it has internal passages - so I think it's more than a mound. The other hills in the area are even more interesting to me. They're not as big, but their shape is more striking:  ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 12:43
Yeah, those passages makes them differ from natural hills, but does not make them pyramids. By the way, do you know who built it? ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 12:51
Not a clue. They've said they're at least 3,500 years old, but they suspect far older. If they could narrow down a date, we could determine which culture was dominant in this area at the time - although I doubt it's really related all that much to any culture we know played a significant role in this region because the very reason we know they were dominant here is because they left evidence, records, and so on - surely they've have mentioned something about a giant pyramid, possibly pyramids? I have a funny feeling it's very, very, very old. 10,500 BC is the time at which Stonehenge, the Egyptian pyramids, the temples in the Americas, and so on, aligned perfectly with the stars. Not saying they were built then, but when they were built, they were built to align with the stars as they appeared in the sky 10,500 years ago. Even 10,000 years ago, the measurements would've been slightly different. So I have a feeling it's a part of that. I really want to know why all these ancient structures, if indeed they were built to align with the stars, all chose roughly 10,500 BC and - if they weren't built at that time, or at least marked by some more primitive construction, how did the ancient people even know where the stars were in 10,500 BC? No one could have lived long enough to notice how the night sky shifts dramatically over time, beyond what's caused by the earth's rotation. Hmmm...it just fascinates me. I'm so pleased with this discovery! ------------- |
Posted By: El Cid
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:13
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I don't know. It seems as a big mound. But it could be real. I'm not an expert in ancient bosnian religions, so I 'd thank you a lot if you could tell me something about it. ------------- The spanish are coming! 
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Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 14:35
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Well, look. There are enough stars in the sky that you can make a building that "aligns" with one star or the other, with the postion it had 10,500 years ago. And what exactly does aligning mean? That the top of the building, from some arbitrary angle, seen by a person of a certain height, seems to be in the same line of sight as a star, at a certain time of the night, and a certain time of the year. What about if the person has a different height, viewed the building from a different angle, or the ground was different in those days? What about the other days of the year, or other hours during the night? This is what's called the "Texas Sharpshooter" method. A lot of pseudo-scientists use it today to concoct all kinds of theories about anceint buildings. The story of the Texas sharpshooter is that he shot at a barn, and then went over and painted bull's eyes over the top of the bullet holes. In other words, people look for patterns and pass it off as a momentous discovery, even when it's simply a coincidence. Check out these sites for the debunking of various myths. http://www.ramtops.co.uk/ - http://www.ramtops.co.uk/ http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Topics - http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Topics Also, in Umberto Eco's book Foucault's Pendulum, at one point, the author gives an impressive exposition of the mathematical and astronomical coincidences and patterns expressed in a newspaper stand, which as we all know have no relationship with astronomy. I highly recommend reading the book. ------------- What is history but a fable agreed upon? Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 15:26
In 1500 BCE the only place in all Europe where anything was written was in Crete and very specific parts of Greece where they used linear B script. It was all accounts and nothing on history, monuments, mythology or other stuff that could be relevant for us. Unless this pyramid keeps some unknown form of script inside, you shouldn't expect any written references. Only Archaeology can answer. As far as I know, the historical (Roman) region of "Dalmatia" or "Illyria" (parts of Croatia, most of Bosnia, Montenegro and the coast of Albania), had a series of cultures that derived from Mediterranean Neolithic (Cardium Pottery), which was also originated there, from c. 6000 BCE to the Bronze Age (c. 1700 in pan-European chronology). This cultural sequence was very related to those of Italy, specially the north, and also was uder the influx of other cultures from the Panonnian basin and what is now Serbia. Since c. 3000 BCE in many Mediterranean areas we can see the appearence of megalithic monuments that do not simply replicate those of the Atlantic but are also original and innovative (the best known example is Malta). The fact that the Egyptian pyramids are also built in this period (early 3rd milennium) makes them somehow related with this megalithic cultural current or fashion, though Egyptians never built megaliths in the Atlantic style (dolmens and cromlechs). The fashion lasted till the Bronze age or some centuries before, depending on regions. I suspect that this Bosnian pyramid will be eventually dated between 3000 and 1800 BCE, just because it would fit with the Mediterranean Megalithic period. If I'm not wrong, between 1500-1300 that area was invaded by Illyrians who are related to the Urnfields culture. So unless this discovery brings us to find some new culture, still unknown, the pyramid would probably belong to one of the Neolitic/Chalcolithic cultures that are mostly native of the area, most likely the Nakovanska Kultura (sorry but I've only found links in Serbocroatan on this topic), which occupies the span between 3500 and the Urnfields (IE) invasion.
Take it easy: all those monuments weren't built before 3000 BCE. It's a very early date and a historical period (Chalcolithic: Copper Age)we all would like to know a lot more about. I hope we will learn much from that Sun Pyramid and related discoveries. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:22
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^ Great posts guys, very interesting. El Cid: Here's a little expose that touches lightly on ancient Bosnian religions. http://www.kolocollaboration.org/Articles/Danica/firstwitches.html - http://www.kolocollaboration.org/Articles/Danica/firstwitc hes.html It is still possible to examine many of their beliefs, especially in rural areas. Even the most moderate of Muslims could not spend a week with traditional, Bosniak highlanders and come away believing they truly practice the Islamic faith. Everything in every moment of every day is either tainted or enriched, depending on your point of view, with a blend of pagan rituals. What we do know is that the ancient, pagan peoples of Bosnia worshipped the Sun God above all others - his spiral symbol is still a very common symbol here. Aida Korman's latest fashion show, "Ad Modum Bosneum", featured a dress with spiral details sewn in that was so popular here. Here's a little look at where these people live: "Lukomir is Europe's oldest living community and the highest in elevation in Bosnia Herzegovina. The small town is also cut off from the world five months a year due to heavy snow."  "Sitting on soft, colorfully embroided pillows filled with wool; drinking strong, black coffee from miniature cups; smiling politely as warm and friendly locals try to carry on a discussion with me using only sign language - at first glance, I could be anywhere in Bosnia, but I am not. I am where the mountains of Bosnia once reached to the sky, and have been slowly beaten back by time ever since. I am in Europe's oldest community, the village of Lukomir. Here young women wear traditional Bosnian garments dating from medieval times not for tourists but because its the only clothing they know how to make. Old women, many of whom still write their names using medieval symbols, place flowers at tombstones that date back more than half a millenium, in cemeteries twice as old. Even my trusty Bosnian guide Goran - who was born and raised just a few kilometers downhill in the capital, Sarajevo - seems out of place and foreign here. He is no more able to understand these village women's ancient dialect than I am." - Wendell Phillips    ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2005 at 16:55
    ------------- |
Posted By: El Cid
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 20:58
------------- The spanish are coming!
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2005 at 21:18
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Oh it will, El Cid - whether they want it to or not. I remember seeing
a documentary about young people from villages like Lukomir
(Highlanders, those people are called, in Bosnia) who left their
villages to live a modern life down in the valleys. They followed, I believe it was 14 young men and women from highlander villages across the country - none managed to make it in the cities. Not even a single one. They're just too modest, too simple, too trusting, too traditional, too much of so many good things to make it in a modern city. I think it's why they've survived so long. Lukomir is Europe's oldest living community, but that's because the highlanders are Europe's oldest living culture. Still, more or less, exactly the same today as it was a millenia ago. I think it's because they're so simple, modest, and self-sufficient. No conquering land, no wars, nothing...just live, be happy. And they survived while so many great and powerful cultures have come and gone. I remember they interviewed one old woman on the show about changes she's noticed over the years, and she said (I can't remember it verbatim, but it stuck in my head, it was something like): "We didn't change that much. The little girls today look just their Mothers did 20 years ago. The little boys play the same way their grandfathers did 50 years ago. What has changed are the people who come here. Before we felt part of them but now they've found a new way for almost everything and... I don't know... maybe they think we're stupid, but I don't believe that. Why change what you love? The people now who come aren't even from the valleys. They're from far off places, across whole oceans. They come to have coffee with us, take pictures of our homes and our children. One of them brought a map of the whole of Europe and I asked him if I could keep it. He showed me where he was from, and where I was from. And now I just love it. Everyone who comes up to visit us, I make them show me on my map where they are from." She was SO cute.------------- |
Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 06:06
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This is quite interesting. A couple of years ago I almost bursted into tears of laughter in the middle of a Russian Histoy class, when Dr.Pliassov, the quintessential Russian nationalist claimed the Egiptians contacted early slavs in order to learn the process of pyramid building. Guess it doesn't sound so funny now... ------------- |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 08:34
thats true. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 14:04
From the Associated Press    Bosnian explorer hails 'pyramids of Europe By Amra Hadziosmanovic Bosnian explorer Semir Osmanagic is convinced that he has found Europe's first pyramids, which he says are a new world wonder dating back to ancient times. "I was amazed when I first saw them. I'm deeply convinced now that this is the work of an ancient civilisation built many thousands of years ago," he said while observing an area he excavated north of Sarajevo. The 45-year-old is so certain two pyramids are hidden in Visoko valley that he has spent €16 000 (R130 000) researching the area, located either side of a river about 30km from the Bosnian capital.
But Osmanagic, who says he sharpened his eye for archaeology on numerous trips around the world to study ancient civilisations, insists the structures "cannot be the art of nature". The self-styled explorer with an Indiana Jones-like hat and clothes began his Bosnian pyramid crusade in April this year after visiting the remnants of a medieval royal palace at the top of the hill. Osmanagic, a businessman and author of several books on other civilisations, says the two "constructions" are precisely aligned with the compass to the four corners of the world. He says he sees astonishing similarities between them and Mexican pyramids dating back to about 200 AD, which also come in pairs, one representing the sun and the other the moon.
Osmanagic says he believes builders from an unknown civilisation shaped the hill into a "step pyramid" then coated it with a kind of primitive concrete. The structure now stands 70m high, with a square base that is 220m by 220m. After conducting initial probes about 17m into the earth that revealed "numerous anomalies in the soil," Osmanagic says he returned to the site with a team of people to start his initial excavation work. Nadja Nukic, a geologist at the site, said she was most puzzled by three layers of brown polished stone that lie an equal distance from each other underground. The team began excavating a few spots at the site this week, with the work expected to be completed in two weeks. They hope to be able to uncover one of the pyramid steps and larger pieces the mysterious brown stone for further analysis. To back his insistence that the two structures are ancient pyramids, Osmanagic says his diggers uncovered slabs of polished sandstone that formed the "paved entrance" to the structures. The director of the Visoko Historic Heritage museum, Senad Hodovic, admits he is no sceptic. "The pyramids are obviously the work of man. But we need proper and serious analysis to show who built them and when." Hodovic says he has spent years urging authorities to support archaeological research of the plateau of the hill, which is recorded in historic annals as the site of a medieval Bosnian town. He says the shape and monumentality of the pyramids is not typical for middle-ages Bosnian constructions. Osmanagic, who has lived in the United States for the past 15 years where he runs a metal workshop business, says he has no ambitions of becoming famous. "I'm not doing this for my own glory. I just want to encourage local authorities to seriously deal with this site which could become Bosnia's most profitable product," Osmanagic said. Thinking of profit, a successful local businessman recently bought most of the area on the plateau where 'pyramid entrance' lies. ------------- |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 14:43
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Until they have made thorough excavations, I'll remain *very* sceptical. Looks suspiciously like regular hills.
A mound on top of it is not very unbelievable, they are on the contrary quite common. |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 14:45
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Some of the pics look very regular for hills, i wouldn't rule out a
burial mound, or even a man manipulated hill for some other purpose.
The tops look to small for hill forts, so i guess that one is out.
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 14:52
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^ Well the very top used to be a Royal castle.
------------- |
Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 14:57
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Hmmm, could it be a royal castle built ontop of an earlier older fort?
------------- Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 15:00
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^ Could be anything, but it's been my experience with Bosnia that if
villagers have been saying something for centuries, it's usually true.
They've been calling them pyramids for as far back as anybody can tell. So who knows? There's something there. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 19:12
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http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?mode=2&pmmsid=1420910 -
http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?mode=2&pmmsid=14 20910 ^ From Reuters. ------------- |
Posted By: OSMANLI
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 15:27
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I think the Bosnians deserve some good news after all that they have been through. BTW: do you know if the location of the pyramids has any link with the constalations as do the ones in Egypt. Imagine maybe the anciants all had similar culture which included pyramids. -------------  
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Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 14:53
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BiH: ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE THAT MOUNDS
VISOCICA AND PLJESEVICA NEAR VISOKO REPRESENT ANCIENT COLOSSAL STONE STRUCTURES SARAJEVO, December 19 (FENA) – Doctor of geophysical sciences Amer Smailbegovic and Sean Anklam, two of the leading researchers working at SpecTIR Corporation in Reno, Nevada, USA believe they have confirmed a discovery of huge, ancient buildings, which may be the first European pyramids, buried in a rugged, mountainous area, near the town of Visoko in Bosnia and Herzegovina, project’s researcher Semir Osmanagic told Fena. Dr. Amer Smailbegovic and his partner, Sean Anklam, are leading the investigative remote sensing work, said “based on preliminary analysis of data collected thus far we have encouraging and compelling evidence that the two mounds we are focusing on may be in fact ancient pyramids.” The researchers have analyzed multiple satellite, airborne and radar imagery, and geospatial datasets, acquired over Visocica and Pljesevica, two mounds in Bosnia and Herzegovina postulated by a growing amount of scientific evidence, to be the first European Pyramids. Using several different available spaceborne, airborne and topographic datasets (Radarsat, Landsat, Hyperion, Orbview, IKONOS, Quickbird, Shuttle Radar Topography Mission) they hope to attain the full view of the area. The SpecTIR Corporation commands recognition on its expertise and integrity, and elite clientele in the United States, ranging from government agencies to corporations and educational institutions. The company specializes in the acquisition of airborne hyperspectral imagery, analysis and interpretation of geospatial datasets and integration of multiple datasets into ready-to-use information for their customers. “Personally speaking, we have no doubts that some kind of enormous, man-made structures exists in and around Visocica: the sides of the mounds appear unnatural because they are very linear, with clearly defined edges. The nature generally abhors straight lines and geometric theorems. In addition to Visocica and Pljesevica features, we may have identified other structures, not readily apparent to the observer on the ground.” state Dr. Smailbegovic and Anklam in their findings. The researchers said they are applying the latest scientific methods in their geo-archaeological investigation. Smailbegovic said a number of Bosnian scientists will join the effort in the coming year. So far, the volunteer effort has centered on analyzing data collected from satellite imagery of areas near Visocica and Pljesevica, about 30km northwest of Sarajevo. A continued, concentrated effort will be initiated to explore the pyramid interior and the network of underground tunnel systems. Semir Osmanagic, the team’s principal investigator, said he is exploring several geophysical methods which could be used to explore the interior of the underground structures and the network of tunnels which may connect them to other areas of archaeological interest in the Visoko Valley. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2005 at 15:00
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It's getting bigger. I'm so happy.
I like how Osmanagic said here that if it turns out these pyramids are made by nature, then it's still going to be a huge deal because nothing of such mathematical percision has ever been found in nature before. So win or lose, it will be an important site. ------------- |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 11:09
| Now im more and more convinced in aliens visiting us.... i mean pyramids on 3-4 different continets.... come on whats the probabylity of that, at that time? |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 12:12
|
I don't know if it was aliens, but it sure as hell wasn't
Slavs. ------------- |
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 12:41
|
Alright: think about it. If you are responsible for the design of a structure that is as tall as possible, using only materials such as stone, brick and earth, how do you build it. Obviously it's going to have either a pyramid or a cone shape, because otherwise it's going to collapse unto itself. If you look at all these pyramids, you'll see that they all serve different functions, and that there are differences between all of them. Also, the construction of the pyramids is spread out over 4500 years: I doubt that there was a connection. ------------- What is history but a fable agreed upon? Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
|
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 21:53
------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 21:58
http://img470.imageshack.us/my.php?image=savi3hd7ln.jpg">
------------- |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 06:58
Actually quite high, specially if you consider burial mounds (tumuli) as the original concept that eventually derived in Pyramids. American pyramids are the most strange anyhow, as no "recent" connection with Europe, Africa or Asia has been proven (but can't be totally discarded either)... but pyramids in the Med aren't so rare after all: Bosnia and Egypt aren't really far away and there are pyramidal structures in Greece too, which is about half-way, and mounds almost anywhere. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: bosnian ruler
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 07:34
|
I dont believe thats a pyramide but if it is whats so weird about it? in about 1000 year(if the earth still exists) people will admire our buildings and say "why are there same buildings on every continent".They will think that we could in no way have the posibility to build those buildings,just like we think of those who build the pyramides..what i msaying is that im sure the older civilisations were much more smarter then we think ------------- Hvaljen neka je Allah, koji je nebesa i Zemlju stvorio i tmine i svjetlo dao, pa opet oni koji ne vjeruju - druge sa Gospodarom svojim izjedanaèuju! Al-An'am |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 08:09
|
Probably smarter than us .... but they didnt have the machines and things we have today......
|
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 08:18
|
Hehehe. It reminds me of the gay marriages in Britain. The people that were protesting for the weddings carried signs making fun of the religious nuts saying things like: "The earth is flat!" "Bring back slavery!" Anyhow, it doesn't surprise me. It took them 10 years to rebuild the old bridge at Mostar - longer than it took to built it the first time. And I doubt they know even now how they did it.------------- |
Posted By: bosnian ruler
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 08:36
|
with our machines only God knows what they would achieve..we are so dumb ------------- Hvaljen neka je Allah, koji je nebesa i Zemlju stvorio i tmine i svjetlo dao, pa opet oni koji ne vjeruju - druge sa Gospodarom svojim izjedanaèuju! Al-An'am |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 09:35
did i say welcome?.... anyway dobrodosao, i nemoj mi sa selam odgovarat ... |
Posted By: bosnian ruler
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 10:09
Hvala na dobordoslici Ne boj se za Selam,ja cu tebi sa :Neka je Boziji mir sa tobom..svidja li ti se? ------------- Hvaljen neka je Allah, koji je nebesa i Zemlju stvorio i tmine i svjetlo dao, pa opet oni koji ne vjeruju - druge sa Gospodarom svojim izjedanaèuju! Al-An'am |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 10:49
In 1000 years, unless everybody has suddenly become analphabet again, there will be memories from our time, the same that we now have them from 1000, 2000 and 3000 years ago, when writting wasn't so common. So they will know why. Yet, I doubt that our buidlings are prepared to stand the test of time like old good stone ones. The problem with ancient civilizations is that they didn't always write, that we don't understand all their languages or that, even when they wrote in a language that we can understand, they didn't write thinking in our questions but their own. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: cg rommel
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 16:55
moze..... anyway, about pyramids, ok if you say its a high probability, but i cant believe they were built so precisely...... |
Posted By: erci
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 03:32
came across with a few pictures of Bosnian pyramid on hyborian forums tunnel into the pyramid     ------------- "When one hears such music, what can one say, but .... Salieri?" |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 12:35
|
Thanks so much, erci! Here's the logo for the new Archeological Park.  ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 22:18
http://slibe.com"> The other pyramids "identified" in the area have been roughly mapped. Universities from Australia, Scotland, Austria and Slovenia are sending experts and one described the site as the biggest archeological investigation for Europe this year. ------------- |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 10:59
|
Great pictures Mila There are small little pyramids found all over in the African jungles. Like someone just put stones on top of stones.There is a evolution of the pyramid . However what they are for is interesting. Tombs? I`d be more interested in the kings that they were made for. |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 11:44
ummmm, no, this is a lie  |
Posted By: Voyager
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 17:11
|
Mila Sorry to disapoint you, but all the evidence I've seen so far in this thread indicates that this "pyramid" is just a natural mound with remains of human ocupation. That is something that is quite common throughout Europe, with thousands of similar hills like that. Also, the man responsible for this "discovery" is anything but reliable: just a second-hand copy of Indiana Jones. He even wore the (fantasy) hat that in public imagination is associated with archaeologists in order to give himself more credibility. All this not to mention a lot of crap that I saw in some pictures such as the "tunnel", which is just a small hole made in the ground. Actually this story should be hilarious for me, if it wasn't simultaneously tragic. What we are seeing here is just another example of the past being used for political reasons grounded in our contemporary world. First of all, some clarifications about pyramids. Unbeknownst to many people is that there isn't nothing special about pyramids.These structures are just the imitation of mountains. And since pre-history, mountains have been sacred for humanity. Since mountains touch the Heavens, they are the places where gods live and since they also connect Heavens and Earth they are also the place where gods and humanity meet. The first mounts that were sacred were obviously natural features. Think about Mount Olympus in Greece or Mount Fuji in Japan. Only on a later date humans started to build artificial structures to imitate them. And even so pyramids are not the oldest of them. The oldest are the shell mounds (albeit not exactly pyramid-looking) that appeared in the Mesolithic. The reason why many people is not aware of this is because positivist archaeologists stripped material culture from its symbolic dimension, considering it too much "subjective". According to these archaeologists the analysis of technological features is a more objective form of studying the past (as if this wasn't a subjective position). Actually, they are just loking themselves at the mirror. Since thanks to science, technology became higly prized in the Western world, the main concern of these archaeologists is finding material culture with a degree of technical complexity. So, the more complex, the more civilised that civilisation is. This is just a subtle way of legitimating contemporary society fetish for technology. That this idea influenced you is obvious in one of your posts dated from 27/10/05 (and I quote) A large structure made of individual blocks of stone built into a triangular shape I'd call a pyramid. A heap of soil and rocks pied up by man I'd call a mound. Another member, Maju, also made similar positivist observations in a post of 28/10/05, when he said that in order to build pyramids it was necessary a Strong social organisation (...) [and a] relative advanced science/technology. He even calls in a later post to pyramids and megaliths a fashion. This is typical of positivism thought. No concern at all with the human dimension of material culture. Now, the second part of the story. Bosnia is a country with only a few years of existence, in other words, it does not have a past, a memory, that can give an identity to its inhabitants. This is even more so in the case of the group to which you belong Mila, the so-called "Bosniaks". At least the Croasts and the Serbs can still rely on their ethnic identities. And it is here that is all the tragedy: a people trying to find an identity. You said it yourself in one of your first posts dated from 27/10/2005 regarding the finding of the "pyramid" ...for Bosnia, it's an enormous deal. Croats and Serbs have long insisted that Bosnian pagans were an isolated, simple people. You are attempting to use something that within positivist archaeology is seen as old, prestigious and a mark of great civilisation. Your "pyramid" is even compared with those of Meso-America. In this way you can reclaim an identity for your people and against the Serbs and Croats. Actually, it was not an incident that the "discoverer" is a Bosnian amateur (is he Bosniak?). You even attempted to make a connection between Bosniak Muslims and Bosnian pagans (that story about Europe's "oldest" living community) saying the similarities between both are notorious. To sum up, for me, all this story is just a sham, for you, is an attempt to build an identity. I wish you luck, but personally, I don't belive that Bosnia has a future. PS - "Muslims do it 5X a day". Yes, I know. It's praying. Unfortunately.
|
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 21:15
|
Voyager, its so obvious you are jealous of Bosnians or have a big problem with them. Your comment seems to denote that Bosnians are some new ethnicity...Grow up. In any event, about pyramids...its basic design only makes sense. The reason cultures all over the world use this basic design is because it was the easiest way to build super heavy structures higher and higher and with their limited technology couldn’t build these structures standing up. Also, the way these pyramids are laid out seems to denote come kind of intelligent design. Are there actual inside structures to these pyramids in Bosnia? |
Posted By: Voyager
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 11:01
|
Loknar
its so obvious you are jealous of Bosnians
Why should I be jealous of a country which is only known for a stupid civil war in the 1990’s?
or have a big problem with them
What? Now it is forbidden to make a critique? In any event, about pyramids...its basic design only makes sense. The reason cultures all over the world use this basic design is because it was the easiest way to build super heavy structures higher and higher and with their limited technology couldn’t build these structures standing up. I already explained what is (not) so special about pyramids within positivism and yet, you counter my argument invoking “common sense”. Common sense is just an ethnocentrism, which basically means the following: what is obvious for me is obvious for everyone else. If the past is all that obvious, then why the heck do we need history? Also, the way these pyramids are laid out seems to denote come kind of intelligent design. Finally, I left the best to the end. Congratulations, you just entered in contradiction with what you said before. Positivists are not very smart, but at least they accept that humans make their own history. Now, “intelligent design” is just an euphemism to designate supernatural intervention in our world.PS - In an early post, a lot of emoticons smiling appeared in the middle of my sentences. I don't understand very well how they did get there, so I just deleted them. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 11:09
|
Firstly, Cetnik boy - the pyramids are not reflection of
Bosniaks or any Bosnians. If they're real, they were built long before Slavs settled this part of the world. "Now, the second part of the story. Bosnia is a country with only a few years of existence, in other words, it does not have a past, a memory, that can give an identity to its inhabitants. This is even more so in the case of the group to which you belong Mila, the so-called "Bosniaks". At least the Croasts and the Serbs can still rely on their ethnic identities. And it is here that is all the tragedy: a people trying to find an identity. You said it yourself in one of your first posts dated from 27/10/2005 regarding the finding of the "pyramid"" You're so right. We have absolutely no history of own. No monuments to the 1992-1995 genocide, no obscenely enormous cemeteries. No Squares of Unity and Brotherhood, no Olympic venues. No Austro-Hungarian Central European districts. No Ottoman-founded cities like Sarajevo and Mostar. No mosques. No Muslims. No Jajce, no Kotromanic dynasty. No Stecci, Bosniak tombstones found nowhere else in the world - which don't number in the tens of thousands across the country. No Bosnian Church, no Ban Kulin. No Vrhbosna, no Solu. No history whatsoever. We were a suburb of Belgrade, but of course. And we always described ourselves as such. "You even attempted to make a connection between Bosniak Muslims and Bosnian pagans" ? We're the same people, dumbass. Unless you believe we settled here during the Ottoman Empire? PLEASE tell me you're that kind of Serb, I love it when their ignorence is plainly obvious to everyone - and not just us. By the way - what sort of communication program do you people have? There have been at least 10 of you joining in the last couple of weeks? Anyhow, this thread is about the pyramids - not your quest to deny an entire nation. And thank you Loknar. ------------- |
Posted By: Voyager
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 15:40
|
Mila No, I am not Cetnik, Serb or even from the Balkans. I was only trying to have a reasonable conversation regarding the (mis)using of the past for political motivations. Yet, if the best answer that you can give me is insult, then I don't augur a nice future for Bosnia. Also, the historical landmarks that you mentioned in order to "prove" a Bosnian past don't mean nothing if they are not part of a narrative that provides an identity to a people. There are also a lot of historical landmarks where I live and few people care about them because they are not important for their identities. Like I said before, Bosnians are today attempting to create a past. Yet, if you consider that calling someone "Serb" (who also live in Bosnia) is a valid insult, then if I had little expectations about Bosnia's future I have now even less. Nice to meet you. |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 16:07
|
Are you from Serbia? Miss the good ole days of Milosevic? You seem to have some real animosity against Bosnia for some reason. Would it bother you if they, or their predecessors built Pyramids? I just don’t get it. Throughout your post you made personal attacks and drifted from making your point. Finally you ended it with the 5X per day image Mila has in her signature. What the hell does that have to do with Pyramids?
Well, lets all move over, Voyager is here, he knows it all. You fool, I was adding to your explanation as well if you cant see that (and that part was posted for all, not to you specifically). Yes ancients looked to mountains. Also, cultures have always wanted to build bigger and taller structures (Tower of Babel, way way long ago). With their limited technology Pyramids only made sense.
I didn’t mean intelligent design in the way you think. Don’t you see a triangle there looking over a valley? Perhaps they were build to protect the valley? I only meant that these buildings were planned and chosen at that particular spot for geographic features (3 hills overlooking a valley). And of course now you insult my intelligence. You sound like an arrogant ass. You are one of those people who get their cheap trills on pointing out the mistakes of others, I suppose to make up for your own self confidence. Perhaps not, I don’t know. But still, you sound like arrogant ass. |
Posted By: Lilleman
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 16:38
|
I'm not convinced about this pyramid thing. I have to agree with Voyager here. I also think this 'pyramid' is more of a giant mound construction, common in Europe in "those days". These mounds seem to be a lot bigger than mounds seen before though. But they look more like mounds than pyramids anyways. I'm not saying this this be annoying or negative (just as a pointer). But keep the debate going. It's interesting. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 17:23
|
^ About the pyramids he could be right. But not about Bosniaks, Bosnia, or Islam.
------------- |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 17:35
|
Even if he mightn't have put it so diplomatically, he is right about creating a past though; new countries or countries gaining strength have a long history of doing just that. For example, when Sweden emerged as a great power, lots of things like this were made, including "proving" Sweden was actually ancient Atlantis. Until they actually find something under those hills*), I'll think of this as exactly such a thing.
*) which I find *extremely* unlikely, seeing no large or organized enough civilization have existed there since people started writing. Furthermore, the pyramids of Egypt have been great tourist attractions since the days of the Roman empire, and no pyramid in the Balkans have ever been mentioned. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 17:46
|
"" Voyager"":No, I am not Cetnik, Serb or even from the Balkans. I was only trying
to have a reasonable conversation regarding the (mis)using of the past
for political motivations. Yet, if the best answer that you can give me
is insult, then I don't augur a nice future for Bosnia. If you make a critique you are a cetnik,cous MIla see the everywhere. In Bosnia who doesn't say that he is a Bosniak is crazy or nacionalist. Before 1991 Bosniaks like nation or language didn't exist. Bosna is a geografical or regional term like many others: Herzegovina,Vojvodina,Slavonija,Lika,Kosovo,Krajina.... For all my claims i have proof. Apart of that,it is a logical conclusion that pyramids exist allover the planet so it's posible even there why not? In Latin America exists even bigger pyramids then this one or those in Egipt. After archeological research we gonna know some more. But until then lets not become all cetniks.  ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 17:52
MY MY, one more link for you so you can imagine that people in this region didn't just hunt wild animals and looked in the sky. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/vinca.htm ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: ill_teknique
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 18:09
Ok, so you definetly are a nacionalista judging from your various posts and this one just confirmed it. You obviously did not take the time to read the posts Mila dedicated to this forum on Bosnian history, Bosnian identity, and further on. It is actually a waste of my time to even begin telling you where you are wrong on the Bosnian language or people not existing before the war - no it was not a civil war either .- Why don't you just cut the b/s and declare us poturceni srbi right away because judging by your words that is what you are aluring to with this statement above. |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 18:14
So they could carve in rock? Woooo. You missed my point. The civilizations who have been building pyramids this size have all had a few things in common: they have been populous, centralized empires which could organize the humongous amounts of labour required. Unless some very very old civilization we have never heard about once existed there, we have no potential builders. |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 18:20
Bosnia, like any other European region has a history and pre-history
that can be counted in many thousands of years. Our history here (in
Europe) is not as old as the history of Africans or most Asians but I
think it's old enough, specially when I look at places of recent
colonization from outside like, let's say, Ohio. That region of the Balcans was actually inmersed in European
pre-history and, believe it or not, the Balcans were at some time the
most advanced region of Europe, with states of lost names that pre-date
Egypt. It's logical, if you think that most of the advances at that
time came from SW Asia and the Balcans and the Mediterranean were a
necessary passage. I'm not sure about the datation of this pyramid but actually in the
western Balcans and the Tisza area there were states that must have
been relatively powerful in the 3rd milennium BCE. The last part of
that milennium though is that of early Indo-European invasions and
those states were destroyed in the process. In the second milennium there are also a couple of Balcano-Danubian major cultures that could have imported that concept. I don't know all the details and I truly miss a source about the
pyramid in this topic, but I don't think it is so unlikely that there
were pyramids in that region. Definitively the mountain looks like a
pyramid and not like a normal mountain, which never get such a perfect
regular shape by natural processes. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 18:31
Btw, I spotted this one in the http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6684&KW=Mountain&PN=0&TPN=1 - mountains topic . It was posted by Theodore Felix among other peaks of the Northern Albanian Alps. It does look anomalous, doesn't it?  -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: RomiosArktos
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 18:45
Pelasgians maybe or other non-Indoeuropean civilisations.I think Herodotus has mentioned the contacts between pre-Hellenic people in what is now Greece and the ancient and glorious kingdom of Egypt. There are pyramid-like structures in Greece too.Maybe remnants of the people that were later mentioned as pelasgians,penestai etc. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 18:49
|
ill_tecnique relaja te un pocito,take some pills. Move on,you are liveing in the past not me. If a fact disturbed you,don't watch it,like in a past time. About the pyramids,only archeologists gonna know for shore(before us). History has long roots in this hole Balkan peninsula. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:06
|
Surbel, you're joined the same list lilleman...you're an ass.
Serbia lost to Bosnia and Croatia, get over it...not bad for a people who have no past. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:27
Just stick to the topic,and who is talking about the war? What is your knoledge about this peninsula to talk like that? Did you ever felt a terror wich war can bring? Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia,they are independent countries and i respect that,i never sad something against that! Just turn on CNN and lets show begin. Remember,i didn't ensalt you! ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Lilleman
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:29
|
Surbel, you're joined the same list lilleman...you're an ass. What have I done to deserve to be called an ass? |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:31
You're correct, I appologize. I was becomming defensive becaue of Lilleman. Sorry. |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:33
It was your comments on Bosnia... In any event, I'll drop it and I appologize for calling you that word. |
Posted By: Lilleman
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:41
|
Loknar. It's ok. But I must point out that I never said anything about Bosnia. I think that you must mixed it up or something. Look again. Anyhow, I don't feel offended, it's ok... I was just surprized to be accused for something I didn't say. |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 19:46
Appologie exepted. I put some comments on history. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Maju
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 07:19
Well I'm not talking about any specific people but guess you can call them Pelasgians, a confuse catchall term, if you wish. In the 3th milennium we have the most brilliand and rather ignored culture of Karanovo-Gumelnita (aka Varna) in Bulgaria, Vallachia and Aegean Thrace. The necropolis of Varna shows clearly that there was a monarch there and that it was a state in the full sense of the term. They did not built pyramids but they had other notable characteristics for the Copper Age. Parallely to this one, in the Tisza region, there was another, apparently short-lived state (Bodrogkerzstúr culture). See http://es.geocities.com/luis_aldamiz/prehistory/maps/-3500.gif - map 1 and http://es.geocities.com/luis_aldamiz/prehistory/maps/-3250.gif - map 2 . After the destruction of these two earliest European states, the most notable culture of Baden assumed the hegemony of Central Europe and kept IEs at bay for some time - though they don't seem a hierarchical state but rather a tribal federation of gigantic proportions. See http://es.geocities.com/luis_aldamiz/prehistory/maps/-2800.gif - map 3 . After the great IE expansion of the middle 2nd milennium, a hybrid IE-native culture (Vucedol) took its place in Central Europe and included what is now Croatia and Bosnia, among other regions.  Here you can see a map of Vucedol culture, which was decissive in the transmission of Bronze from the Near East to Central Europe. The dates from http://www.geocities.com/vucedol_culture/WhenandWhere.htm - this site say it existed between 3000 and 2200, placing it in the Chalcolithic, but I have reasons (readings) to think it didn't exist before 2400 BCE and would probably last till a much later date, though I'm unsure about when it ended. In any case, the (pre)history of the Balcans before the Illyrians and Thracians is full of interest. Actually I would say that never after would the Balcans be as important as in the Neolithic-Chalcolithic-Bronze Age. In this sense, I find that pyramids, though somehow odd, aren't totally out of place there. After all it was the most adavanced region of Europe. -------------
NO GOD, NO MASTER! |
Posted By: krios
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 08:10
|
well they found nothing yet. how can you all be so sure that hill is a pyramid ? i am not so sure. i talked to some geologists and they said there is not a single proof that hill is pyramid.
we should wait for some analasys, meanwhile lets hope the theory is right. it will turn upsidedown all we know from european history ------------- http://www.historyexplorer.net - History Timelines and Articles |
Posted By: Voyager
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 18:55
|
1 – I still continue to see some posts that defend that that mount is a
pyramid. How many times do I have to say that pyramids are an imitation
of the shape of a mound, including the conical top? If we start by
considering every pyramid-shape mount an artificial pyramid
(particularly based on the ridiculous evidence that was provided;
anyone really saw remains of a pyramid?), then there wouldn’t be any
mounts left. There would be millions of pyramids spread throughout the
world. This ridiculous mistake is visible when it was also noticed that
there were also more pyramids in the vicinity. Duh! But of course,
that’s the natural shape of most mounts. And if you enlarge the radius,
you will find several more “pyramids”. Actually, so many that
Bosnia-Herzegovina should change its name to Pyramida-Herzegovina. Yep,
that’s right, the only area of the Balkans (which is a mountainous
region) without mounts but pyramids. 2 – Mila and Loknar, when persons go to a Forum to present their ideas, the least that will happen is that they will be questioned by several others that don’t agree with them. So they must be prepared to defend their own ideas and if someone presents a number of arguments that seriously question them, they have to accept that they were wrong. Those are the rules of a Forum: you consciously accept to be put in the line of fire to defend your own ideas. Sometimes you are successful, sometimes you are not. Tell me: how were you expecting others to receive your ideas? By acclaiming you as geniuses? Be more modest, instead of turning to insult, which ends being a way of recognising that you were not correct. 3 – Mila, you should also get away from your parochialism. It seems that you think that Bosniaks are above any critique. Anyone that criticises them is a Serb. Well, let me tell you that the truth is that most people don’t care about Bosniaks; they don’t even know they exist. That’s why you are posting several topics about Bosnia in this Forum. You’re just saying: “Hello, we’re here, we exist”. Yes, but with posts like these you’re not going far. You’re just showing all the tragedy of your country. 4 – Actually, if you are expecting to impress Europeans with this kind of posts, as it can be seen from the title of this thread, you’re not going far. As I said before, you are acting within a positivist paradigm where past material culture is reduced to mere technique, where the “best” civilisations are those where more “complex” techniques appeared early. As a result of this ridiculous paradigm, the past is being used solely by modern nations or other interested groups to pretend that they are superior to others. So, what you are saying to Europe is: “Hey, please, accept us, because we have the oldest pyramids in the world and this will make us superior to others”. No, thanks. Anyway, even within that limited vision of the Past, you’re misinformed, because the first known European pyramid (putting aside shell mounds) – Silbury Hill, in the chalk lands of England – was made at the same time of the first Egyptian pyramids. Sorry, but you will have to get something else to impress Europeans. 5 –I know I was harsh with you, but see it as a blessing in disguise, since it will force you to reconsider more carefully what it means to be Bosnian. 6 – Finally, initially I thought that the “discoverer” of the “pyramid” was a Bosniak partisan, but now I’m starting to suspect that he is just a con-man trying to get some easy money with all this story, skilfully playing with Bosnia’s identity crisis. PS - I noticed now that in an early post where I answered to Loknar, a lot of emoticons smiling appeared in the middle of my sentences. I don't understand very well how they did get there, so I just deleted them. |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:22
H3 Studios has released the first virtual diagrams of the
pyramids.  http://img44.imageshack.us/my.php?image=27ha.jpg">  http://img44.imageshack.us/my.php?image=17tb.jpg">  ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:34
|
Dr. Zahi Havass, Director of Antiquities and Archeology of the Giza
Pyramids in Egypt, is coming to Bosnia and Herzegovina to see for
himself. He said the stones he's seen so far are very interesting and
with the additional information he's been provided with, it's enough
that he wants to investigate the site himself. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:42
A few more photos from the site:   ------------- |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:46
Most clear, impossible  |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:50
|
People in Visoko have already started stealing the stones from the
pathway that lines the route to the plateau and carving them into
souvenirs. The archeologists, like this one from Germany, are calling for military security for the site.  ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:52
The stones they're trying to protect:  ------------- |
Posted By: Surbel
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 20:59
Until now,i belived that they gonna find something interesting,after this post i realize that they are prepared for everything,even to make one out of the hill. Lets waith for some results and please independent one. ------------- When your heart is empty,your mind is worth nothing. anonimus |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 21:10
|
The Archeological Institute of America has officially accepted
their geologist Nadija Nurkic's report following an additional
examination of her findings. Her report states: The shape of Visocica Hill is consistent with that of a pyramid, having four identical sides, with the exception of the front side which accesses a plateau. Nature does not make correct geometrical shapes like this and the rocks could not have been formed in this pattern by natural forces - Three excavations have taken place at the described location. These ascertained that there is a consistent pattern up the side of the pyramid; an angled side followed by a flat horizontal section of 2.5m, like a stair, which continues to the apex of Visocica Hill Superficial digging has confirmed that the contours of the blocks have specific geometrical shapes. By cleaning these blocks we can see that all these blocks are layered on each other with each block set slightly indented to the one below. It is interesting that the blocks are covered with moss and so remain intact. Two blocks were discovered during the excavation we carried out and we can clearly see the sides of the two blocks and the area where they were joined together. We have done more cleaning on these joints and found that the sides between the joins are very finely ground. On location at the second area of excavation we noticed the appearance of sanded blocks and these blocks are set in an orderly pattern across this area. One of the blocks was excavated from a depth of 1.7m. It was found to have circular patterns which will be analysed further; it is thought that they are man made. The length and size of the third excavation is 9.3m x 9.8m and we can conclude from previous excavations that the plateau is most probably completely covered with these blocks. These blocks do not have the appearance of stairs but follow the angle of the hill. By looking closely at these blocks we can see that they are man made. We can therefore conclude that all these blocks have been cut into the required dimensions to create this structure. We can conclude, from all these factors, the hypothesis that the Visocica Hill is a colossal stone structure - a pyramid. The walls of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun are made from precut blocks which have been moved to this location. The access plateau is of monumental dimensions (around 15,000 sqm) and is paved with cut stone slabs. Given these factors, we can discount this being a natural phenomena. ------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 21:14
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BOSNIAN PYRAMID VALLEY – GREATEST ARCHAEOLOGICAL PROJECT IN EUROPE IN 2006 
SARAJEVO,
January 18 (FENA) – The Steering Board of the Foundation “Archeological
park: Bosnian pyramid of the Sun” held a session on Wednesday at which
it was concluded that the works on digging up the pyramids in Visoko
would be the greatest archeological-geological project in Europe in
this year. The works will commence on April 14 and should be concluded by the end of October, was announced by the Foundation “Archeological park: Bosnian pyramid of the Sun”. Thanks to the interest of archeologists from the entire world, activities are already in progress on forming strong expert teams of the Project. Participation has been confirmed by the following archeologists: Grace Fegan, a leading Irish archeologist, Royce Richards from Austria, together with other archaeologists from the University in Innsbruck, Glasgow and Ljubljana. The international team will support the activities of young BiH archeologists. ------------- |
Posted By: Lilleman
Date Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 21:31
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Really interesting and intriguing. No doubt about that. I wonder what they will find, because I'm not that sure anymore that it's just a regular mound/mount. I'm still quite sceptic that it is an actual pyramid... but who knows what they will dig up? |